mido9 Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Suibon' timestamp='1344089703' post='5997185'] [center]Six Samurai already had Grandmaster of the Six Samurai to help them swarm (and for the original Six, to get whatever effects there are). Kizan was just rubbing it in.[/center] [/quote] I really thought that kizan is okay if you're not making 30 of him in one turn with gateway or getting +es off swarming with him a la six samurai united.[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1344089737' post='5997188']Things like specific types of destruction and negation (Evolzars, Icarus-esque cards) are fine, while universal consistency isn't (Allure, RotA, etc). [/quote] Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suibon Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Expelsword - 黎明' timestamp='1344089520' post='5997182'] For a short list of cards it helps The "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Amazoness"]Amazoness[/url]", "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Scorpion"]Dark Scorpion[/url]", "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Silent_Swordsman_LV7"]Silent Swordsman[/url]", "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Warriors"]Warriors[/url]", "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_Swordsman_LV6"]Mystic Swordsman[/url]", "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Sasuke_Samurai"]Sasuke Samurai[/url]", "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Samurai"]Six Samurai[/url]", "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Cyber_Girl"]Cyber Girl[/url]", "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Ninja"]Ninja[/url]", and "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Destiny_HERO"]Destiny HERO[/url]" archetypes are all of the Warrior-Type, as is most of the "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Elemental_HERO"]Elemental HERO[/url]" archetype. [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Warrior-Type_monsters"]http://yugioh.wikia....r-Type_monsters[/url] Look at ALL THOSE CARDS OUT THERE. [/quote] [center]It also helps to have a sense of whether they do anything that can be considered problematic.[/center][quote name='mido9' timestamp='1344089812' post='5997189'] I really thought that kizan is okay if you're not making 30 of him in one turn with gateway or getting +es off swarming with him a la six samurai united. [/quote] [center]I'm not necessarily saying ban it, I'm saying that it's bad design. Not all bad design needs a falcon-punch, or else f***ing Polymerization would see itself being catapelted with the stratosphere.[/center] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1344089812' post='5997189'] Why not? [/quote] It basically regards parasitism. Cards that are basically conditional and require the card/type/attribute it supports can be considered parasitic. Because of the fact that it doesn't actually speed up the deck or make it more consistent, it's fine (what it's actually doing is giving you a more stable deck, which is slightly different). Most consistency cards aren't parasitic which is why they are instantly easier to use. No deck should have the benefit of extra consistency (of course, this usually isn't true, because a lot of searchers are actually pretty balanced, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was good design in the first place). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1344089737' post='5997188'] Each type and Attribute should ideally have something appealing about it that lets you play them.[/quote] Samurais have Smoke Signal Ninjas have Hanzo Hieratics have Gathering Rabbit.dek has Guide & Leviair HEROs have E-Call, Stratos, and a few others Chaos Dragons have Eclipse Wyvern and Future Fusion Lightsworns have Charge etc Basically all the top-tier decks have their own RotAs 11/10 pattern Konami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1344091574' post='5997207'] Samurais have Smoke Signal Ninjas have Hanzo Hieratics have Gathering Rabbit.dek has Guide & Leviair HEROs have E-Call, Stratos, and a few others Chaos Dragons have Eclipse Wyvern and Future Fusion Lightsworns have Charge etc Basically all the top-tier decks have their own RotAs 11/10 pattern Konami [/quote] Konami have an awful habit of, yes, filling that niche with a consistency card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1344091966' post='5997210'] Konami have an awful habit of, yes, filling that niche with a consistency card. [/quote] Actually I was getting at the fact other archetypes would be better if they had their own form of RotA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1344092076' post='5997212'] Actually I was getting at the fact other archetypes would be better if they had their own form of RotA. [/quote] Not really. The only archetypes that could possibly deserve monster searchers are slow control decks. Aggro and combo decks really don't need RotAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingdom Xathers Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1344091574' post='5997207'] Samurais have Smoke Signal Ninjas have Hanzo Hieratics have Gathering Rabbit.dek has Guide & Leviair HEROs have E-Call, Stratos, and a few others Chaos Dragons have Eclipse Wyvern and Future Fusion Lightsworns have Charge etc Basically all the top-tier decks have their own RotAs 11/10 pattern Konami [/quote] Can't forget Gishkis with their two Searchers that are also Ritual Ravens and Salvage targets. @__@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 Alternate RotAs should stop being made imo. Consistency is cool, free search for what you want for drawing this card isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Grapha Demon Lord of Sexy' timestamp='1344097749' post='5997258'] Alternate RotAs should stop being made imo. Consistency is cool, free search for what you want for drawing this card isn't. [/quote] Even when everything they search is 100% totally balanced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1344100876' post='5997285'] Even when everything they search is 100% totally balanced? [/quote] First off, there is no such thing as "100% Balanced". Secondly, it's not consistency, it's "OH YOU DREW THIS CARD. GET EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT FOR THE SITUATION." How on earth is that remotely good design that needs to come back at ALL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 Toolbox cards should really be limited to Giant Rat-esque cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 All searchers should be @1. I don't know how Heroes aren't stomping the game though, with [b]5[/b] cards that search basically any monster they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Expelsword - 黎明' timestamp='1344102800' post='5997310'] All searchers should be @1. I don't know how Heroes aren't stomping the game though, with [b]5[/b] cards that search basically any monster they want. [/quote] Consistency isn't power. And 'basically any monster' is Stratos, Alius or Bubbleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1344092228' post='5997215'] Not really. The only archetypes that could possibly deserve monster searchers are slow control decks. Aggro and combo decks really don't need RotAs. [/quote] I kinda disagree here, combo decks usually need 2 or more of their cards to actually do anything. Other wise they are just sitting there hoping to draw a card they need to be able to make a play. If only control decks are able to search cards they need...they would have an unfair advantage over other decks in the game. I still believe that being able to grab a card from the deck is not that big of a deal given that the targets are balanced. IMO it sort of promotes skill in the game because players have to understand the game state and situation in order to get the correct card. Again...this is given that the targets are balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1344102055' post='5997301'] First off, there is no such thing as "100% Balanced". Secondly, it's not consistency, it's "OH YOU DREW THIS CARD. GET EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT FOR THE SITUATION." How on earth is that remotely good design that needs to come back at ALL? [/quote] Most likely because the whole "needs you to be good to use it decently" good part of it's design really outweighs the bad design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344105038' post='5997332'] I kinda disagree here, combo decks usually need 2 or more of their cards to actually do anything. Other wise they are just sitting there hoping to draw a card they need to be able to make a play. If only control decks are able to search cards they need...they would have an unfair advantage over other decks in the game. I still believe that being able to grab a card from the deck is not that big of a deal given that the targets are balanced. IMO it sort of promotes skill in the game because players have to understand the game state and situation in order to get the correct card. Again...this is given that the targets are balanced. [/quote] What I'm really saying is that if decks really do want RotAs, only control decks could even have the possibility of having them. Never actually wanted control decks to all have RotAs. I can't think of any combo deck that's actually well-designed though. And searchers always have the potential to push them over the edge for a format or so before banlist changes which is awful for business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1344105391' post='5997336'] What I'm really saying is that if decks really do want RotAs, only control decks could even have the possibility of having them. Never actually wanted control decks to all have RotAs. I can't think of any combo deck that's actually well-designed though. And searchers always have the potential to push them over the edge for a format or so before banlist changes which is awful for business. [/quote] Then wouldn't you say that the problem is the broken combo and not really the searcher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344105715' post='5997339'] Then wouldn't you say that the problem is the broken combo and not really the searcher? [/quote] Absolutely. But try making a balanced combo archetype yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1344105284' post='5997335'] Most likely because the whole "needs you to be good to use it decently" good part of it's design really outweighs the bad design. [/quote] If skill is a factor in balance than Dark Worlds are balanced because they are skillful imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranma1/2 Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 never as long as six sams continue being good. maybe. yes. six sams and heroes are the main ones i can think of. obvious answers are obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Regenut will totally say no to this card if my prediction becomes true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Origins Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Keep this at one. It's better that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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