Wizarus Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 [img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120616113637/yugioh/images/2/23/GorztheEmissaryofDarkness-BP01-EN-R-1E.png[/img] Ban worthy or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingdom Xathers Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 We've got Trag, so this can be detained to Yugimon [s]Prison[/s] Asylum. Seriously, though, a (normally) 2-for-1 monster that rewards you for being at a disadvantage is not good for the game. Sure, it helps to prevent OTKs, but it also presents a nerve-racking mind-game.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 This card stopped me from losing to a Hero OTK. Amazingly, my 3800 Kaien token walled the whole match until I was able to flip it around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 [quote name='Russell Taurus Oxford' timestamp='1344192931' post='5998158'] We've got Trag, so this can be detained to Yugimon [s]Prison[/s] Asylum. [/quote] Trag is also banworthy so that point seems strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 I have been laughing lately with my Psychic deck when I drop this, then use Veiler to go into a level 8 Synchro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 This card is more devastating in slower formats. Funny when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1344195081' post='5998183'] Trag is also banworthy so that point seems strange. [/quote] I was thinking unlimitworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1344195927' post='5998191'] I was thinking unlimitworthy. [/quote] My god, are you joking? Just because it's not having an impact doesn't mean that it's not insanely awful design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 It needs you to play no other cards alongside it to get high enough atk to run over most things,it's steal effect is very situational and not really good with an xyz focus,and the level modifier effect just makes it a really big -1 synchro/xyz. Im not seeing bad design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Call me bad but I think Trag is worse than this, at least in the decks that can make use of him. I actually like this card and don't mind having it dropped on me that much, but I still think it's banworthy, at least in a slower format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1344197012' post='5998197'] It needs you to play no other cards alongside it to get high enough atk to run over most things,it's steal effect is very situational and not really good with an xyz focus,and the level modifier effect just makes it a really big -1 synchro/xyz. Im not seeing bad design. [/quote] [quote]When you take Battle Damage: You can Special Summon this card from your hand.[/quote] This alone is bad design enough. I fail to understand how whenever someone hears "bad design", they immediately think "broken". I'm fully aware its steal effect is situational and it's not that good with Xyzs, and it makes minuses and whatever. It's still bad design, from a designer's point of view. 1. Of all things, it's a free Special Summon which has never been good design from any point of view. 2. At any other point, it's rewarding you for not playing the game. In other TCGs, the concept of ATK and DEF equals number of cards in your hand X ? is fine, because usually they're slow enough to pull it off. In a TCG of YGO's speed, something like that basically says play passively, or you get punished. It's a form of punishment design, rather than reward design (which, to be honest, it's awful game-wise anyway). 3. Inelegant random effects that have nothing to do with each other added on to the fact that it's a free Special Summon regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Easy SS conditions can be considered bad design,but that doesnt make trag [i]as a whole[/i] bad card design when it's bad card design is offset by his good card design laden in restrictions or overall game effect,namely: His need for you to play passively as well before [i]and after[/i] he is dropped to actually be any threat,which rewards you for careful resource managment and punishes you for playing cards mindlessly,which really isnt a bad overall effect on the game IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildflame Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 As long OTK decks exist, this should exist as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Gee, it sure is hard to XYZ around here. Mah boi, this slowness is what all true Yu-Gi-Oh! players strive for! I just wonder what Tragoedia is up to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowayix Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 The only unbanned card that can NTK without an Alternate Win Condition. (Other NTKs include Makyura the Destructor and Exodia.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I don't think Trag's banworthy either. This, on the other hand. Basically means you either aren't doing anything or have lost everything and are just using it as a last ditch effort. The problem is that it NEVER feels like a last ditch effort when it's played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I personally feel that it gives people an excuse to do nothing for a turn or risk it all, which can be considered as a "strategic maneuver", but it's not like you're being rewarded for making a move that the opponent couldn't see through. It's pretty obvious when someone passes with multiple cards in hand and no field that they're either a cocky bastard or have Gorz/Battle Fader. So it's punishing the opponent for attempting to take advantage of the situation instead. Sorry if this doesn't make too much sense or seems rambly. I have had like a total of 10 hours of sleep the past few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1344204262' post='5998263'] Easy SS conditions can be considered bad design,but that doesnt make trag [i]as a whole[/i] bad card design when it's bad card design is offset by his good card design laden in restrictions or overall game effect,namely: His need for you to play passively as well before [i]and after[/i] he is dropped to actually be any threat,which rewards you for careful resource managment and punishes you for playing cards mindlessly,which really isnt a bad overall effect on the game IMO. [/quote] At the very least, if you already have field or hand advantage, this basically boosts that advantage. If you don't, you can basically convert your hand advantage into mini-field advantage. It's basically twisting round random bits of the game and making you not play YGO properly. Trag's quite a subtle card since you could probably keep it at 2 without any problems whatsoever, but it's preferable at 0 for the sake of getting rid of badly designed cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranma1/2 Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 when it comes to gorz: your opponent plays a something like a fhd (not that it's used this format, but try to get what i'm saying first) he attacks you with it you play this and you have a 2700 and a 5000 beater on your turn, you get rid of fhd normal summon something over 300. you win. when it comes to tragoedia: your opponent plays fhd he attacks you with it you play this and you have 5 cards in your hand, so trag is 3000. (or 2 cards for only 1200) honestly, trag is fine where he is on the list right now because of its slifer-like effect. the less cards in your hand, the more it sucks. the more cards, the better it is. on the other hand, gorz is fine being limited. yeah, you can otk your opponent, but because it's at one and there isn't really a deck that revolves around gorz, there isn't really a chance that you're going to play gorz EVERY SINGLE DUEL. of course, i hate gorz and it can go to hell for all i care, but you guys understand what i'm trying to say, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='Wildflame' timestamp='1344205083' post='5998270'] As long OTK decks exist, this should exist as well. [/quote] Battle Fader Swift Scarecrow Tragoedia We have plenty of cards to stop OTKs other than this one. Bad logic is bad. We should not have to use a broken card to stop something other cards can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Mind games = Necesarry evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Can't stop dat QuasarTK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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