Why Exodia Isn't Bullcrap

[Azuh]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1351335315' post='6054830']
Who's the real A-hole?
[/quote]

[img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/yugioh/images/thumb/a/af/Yugi-Exodia.jpg/350px-Yugi-Exodia.jpg[/img]

[size=6]I'M THE REAL a******[/size]

[img]http://ravegrl.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/001_seto_kaiba_defeated_yugi_duel.jpg?w=550[/img]

[size=6]IT'S NOT POSSIBLE, NO ONES BEEN ABLE TO OUT a****** ME?![/size]

[D.A._Sakuyamon]

Oh please, if you lose to Exodia and you think there an a-hole then your just a butt hurt loser. For me Exodia is fun to plat against because you never know when they'll get into it. Which adds more suspense then a regular duel.

[Canadian]

[quote name='♥ D.A._Siegfried ♥' timestamp='1351345005' post='6054871']
Oh please, if you lose to Exodia and you think there an a-hole then your just a butt hurt loser. For me Exodia is fun to plat against because you never know when they'll get into it. Which adds more suspense then a regular duel.
[/quote]

I also enjoy hitting myself in the head with a hammer............................

[D.A._Sakuyamon]

[quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1351345743' post='6054876']
I also enjoy hitting myself in the head with a hammer............................
[/quote]
Actually I do enjoy hitting myself with a hammer.

[Expelsword]

[quote name='♥ D.A._Siegfried ♥' timestamp='1351345877' post='6054881']
Actually I do enjoy hitting myself with a hammer.
[/quote]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/PiRaNa_FiShY/Code%20Geass/ShockedLelouch.jpg[/IMG]

[Bahamut - Envoy of the End]

My argument in this is the same as always.

How can there be any fun in sitting there systematically picking up card after card after card after card after card after card after card after card after card after card after card after card... then maybe having to stall for a turn with Gravity Bind or Battle Fader... then back to picking up card after card after card after card after... ooh I've won. By the same method that won me my last ten duels. How is that fun?

Certainly isn't fun for me sitting there doing nothing watching.

That's why Exodia should be banished and never return.

[Zowayix]

I think Exodia might be interesting if the pieces had the effect "If you add this card to your hand by drawing it, return it to the Deck" or some variant. That way you would be forced to get each piece manually by means of Sangan, Monster Reincarnation, Where Arf Thou?, Dark Factory of Mass Production, etc. I suppose Pot of Duality is a loophole, but that's just one card.

[TheTurtleOnceCalledGod]

[insert bashing here]

[Justice Master]

[quote name='Azuh' timestamp='1351302610' post='6054644']
Oooh boy aren't you going to get a bashing...

The point is that people want interaction in their game, and not, DRAW DRAW DRAW OBLITERATE, or DRAW DRAW DRAW f***, scoop.
[/quote]
That is every Meta or tier deck I have ever faced in a nutshell.

Apparently a large group of people like it.

[Agro]

[quote name='Justice Master' timestamp='1351367064' post='6055077']
That is every Meta or tier deck I have ever faced in a nutshell.
[/quote]Except they're not.

[Justice Master]

Good point. It's more "DRAW DRAW DRAW DARK WORLD" nowadays.

[Agro]

[quote name='Justice Master' timestamp='1351369154' post='6055105']
Good point. It's more "DRAW DRAW DRAW DARK WORLD" nowadays.
[/quote]You're overgeneralizing. That isn't the meta.

[Just Crouton]

[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351302475' post='6054640']
Exodia decks also take a lot of flack for not allowing player interaction and making you lose before you feel like you've done anything worthwhile. Well, plenty of decks have this same, unfair mechanic to them. Watt decks sit behind Messenger of Peace all day laughing and gaining massive +'s they use to eventually win the game with. Wind-Ups drop 2 cards and make it impossible to come back. Gadget decks generate so many +'s and get rid of so many of your cards in the process that you feel like you haven't accomplished anything the entire duel, except maybe a bit of damage. Hope for Escape Exodia does have the advantage of having your opponent gain the illusion of "coming close to victory". As you let them deal damage to you, and pay down to massively low number of Life Points (even as low as 50), your opponent thinks "Cool, I just need one good hit and I win!". Plus, as noted, there are ways that one can take advantage of your opponent's bad hands to gain an advantage, and if your opponent gets nothing good whatsoever, you get to satisfyingly decimate them and feel like a better person.
[/quote]

The existence of a broken deck shouldn't justify the existence of another broken deck because broken decks/combos shouldn't exist, especially ones where the other player just sits and watches you pretty much play the entire game by yourself. Period.

[Expelsword]

It is very hard to counter Exodia when you do not even get a turn.

Almost all meta decks take at least a few turns to kill you.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

[quote name='American Machismo!!!!!' timestamp='1351373289' post='6055144']
The existence of a broken deck shouldn't justify the existence of another broken deck because broken decks/combos shouldn't exist, especially ones where the other player just sits and watches you pretty much play the entire game by yourself. Period.
[/quote]
I was fairly sure I had already addressed "it doesn't excuse it", but apparently in the process of coming up with more to say about it I forgot to. Anyways, I'll just add it now. "While this does not excuse Exodia for its own problems, the blame is falling unfairly upon one deck over another just because people like to play one more than the other. Everyone can agree that broken cards shouldn't exist, but you shouldn't tolerate one while damning the other. Perhaps not everyone is on this hypocritical side, but the point remains that just as much injustice is doled out by other decks, of which nothing is being done about as of yet. Once these newer cards get their rightful placement, then we can reflect on that which has always been."

[werewolfjedi]

[quote name='Expelsword - 黎明' timestamp='1351373688' post='6055149']
It is very hard to counter Exodia when you do not even get a turn.

Almost all meta decks take at least a few turns to kill you.
[/quote]
LOL

they always try to OTK you. you just run stop cards. obviously because YOUR DOING THE SAME DAMN THING.
at least that's how it was last time I checked. what's the meta right now? are dragons anywhere in there? if they are, we are still working on an effectively otk build-type of decks. it's just not OTK I win, it's more combo play now you can't and I'll take a turn before you lose, unless of course you draw that 1 card that can save your ass.
just because you can stop a deck that can kill you in one shot by life points which is the most common way, and so you run counterplay to stop that, does not mean it's any less otk-ish than exodia, which you can also run stop effects against, but you obviously never do because IT"S A f***ing RETARDED WAY TO WIN AND YOU SHOULDN'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THAT.

so yes, I"m bashing both sides. because f*** tele-dad

[Wildflame]

Best Exodia decks today aren't even FTK-oriented.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

[quote name='Wildflame' timestamp='1351379103' post='6055196']
Best Exodia decks today aren't even FTK-oriented.
[/quote]
FTK Exodia is so inconsistent because they have to play so many cards that rely on other cards to do anything (and people don't know how to play those cards properly). Plus, it automatically loses to Effect Veiler (if it uses Library, which sometimes it doesn't, but those are even worse).

An interesting Exodia deck is Dark World Exodia, where you use Advance Draw on Grapha, and you can dump your Exodia pieces to add them back to your hand. Plus, if the deck ends up not being able to go off right, you can always do regular herps with Grapha.

[werewolfjedi]

I'd actually like darkworld exoida, if it wasn't for grapha. f***ing broke monster with broke requirements doing broke things

[Wizarus]

[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351379515' post='6055201']
FTK Exodia is so inconsistent because they have to play so many cards that rely on other cards to do anything (and people don't know how to play those cards properly). Plus, it automatically loses to Effect Veiler (if it uses Library, which sometimes it doesn't, but those are even worse).
[/quote]

Doesn't matter. Anything with the ability to FTK is bad for the game period, and should be banned on principle, regardless of how consistent it is.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

[quote name='Wizarus' timestamp='1351381209' post='6055213']
Doesn't matter. Anything with the ability to FTK is bad for the game period, and should be banned on principle, regardless of how consistent it is.
[/quote]
Well, there are a number of things that could FTK if you build an FTK build using Library for infinite draws...It's just that Exodia is the best choice for these strange kinds of decks, since it's not top-tier to begin with,

[Legend Zero]

[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351382175' post='6055218']
Well, there are a number of things that could FTK if you build an FTK build using Library for infinite draws...It's just that Exodia is the best choice for these strange kinds of decks, since it's not top-tier to begin with,
[/quote]
Using a Library FTK as and argument against a comment saying all FTK potential decks are bad doesn't work.

[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351304121' post='6054657']
[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1351303818' post='6054655']
Those last two paragraphs make me think you don't know what interaction is. (or I've been going through life thinking it was something else)
[/quote]
@Legend: Please elaborate as to what I said that was wrong. I addressed card plays that gain advantage over players or counter their strategy, and how players feel as they are playing against each other, so there isn't too much more to say.
[/quote]
You don't understand. You made the point that Exodia isn't broken, a point we all agree on. You then compare it to decks that give +'s. You make the assumption that Messenger of Peace is a godly card in a format full of destruction. You also assume that the opponent never comes with an answer, unlike Exodia in which answers to Fader, One Day, ect are far and few. Having answers is what interaction between players is, just because you assume that a deck doesn't get a counter (or even if they don't) that doesn't mean the deck is anti player interaction. Even in the off chance it is, it is almost impossible to be on the same level as Exodia in that department.

Next, you go on to talk about WU. Now I'm not saying WU are lolomghaxcards!11!1, because I haven't had the time to play this format at all. However, they also are nowhere near the level of anti player interaction as Exodia. Regardless, any of the 'badness' that comes from WU is because of a broken-ness, which we agreed Exodia wasn't.

tl;dr: You treat 'unfairness' and 'complete lack of player interaction' as the same thing, when they are not and should not be.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Nobody ever seems to get my points. Maybe the way I word them is strange, but here are my points: Cards do exist that can FTK besides Exodia, but nobody is talking about them. They're only complaining about Exodia because it's the most prevalent. I'm not saying that FTK cards should exist. I wasn't making a counter-argument, I was only stating a fact that relates to what was said.

Also, I never said that Messenger of Peace was a god-tier card. I'm merely saying that other decks that people actually use on occasion stall, gain plusses while you sit there, and OTK/FTK, and that Exodia isn't the only one that should get the blame for it because it's not exclusive to itself.

You mention Battle Fader, which is funny, because that's the number one card a deck can counter against Exodia. Solemn Warning is in a whole lot of decks. I also already mentioned the ability to stop opponent's stall with MST/Tornado, and how you can actually utilize Heavy Storm to take advantage of situations where your opponent is backed into a corner/drawing badly. If you side correctly, there's a lot more you can do to counter their strategy as well, especially when it comes to their own counter-counter strategy players will back and forth a lot more frequently. I also mentioned earlier the situation where a player was countering the opponent's strategy by Solemning his own cards, which while that isn't a player responding to another player, is causing the two players to actually be involved in some sort of battle against one another, and thinking about their opponent's moves to act accordingly.

And in the end, it doesn't even matter if my argument is weak, because I'm not literally saying that Exodia is actually okay, Wheile it's good to have solid arguments, and while I think much of what I said drives its point home, I'm just giving it some sort of backing. Think of it like that one movie Thank You For Smoking. I'm supporting the underdog not because I think it's right, but because it's the underdog. Heart of the Underdog 2TK. So, feel free all you want to say that something I said isn't entirely true, though don't make it personal.

[Agro]

[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351384080' post='6055241']
Nobody ever seems to get my points. Maybe the way I word them is strange, but here are my points: Cards do exist that can FTK besides Exodia, but nobody is talking about them. They're only complaining about Exodia because it's the most prevalent. I'm not saying that FTK cards should exist. I wasn't making a counter-argument, I was only stating a fact that relates to what was said.

Also, I never said that Messenger of Peace was a god-tier card. I'm merely saying that other decks that people actually use on occasion stall, gain plusses while you sit there, and OTK/FTK, and that Exodia isn't the only one that should get the blame for it because it's not exclusive to itself.

You mention Battle Fader, which is funny, because that's the number one card a deck can counter against Exodia. Solemn Warning is in a whole lot of decks. I also already mentioned the ability to stop opponent's stall with MST/Tornado, and how you can actually utilize Heavy Storm to take advantage of situations where your opponent is backed into a corner/drawing badly. If you side correctly, there's a lot more you can do to counter their strategy as well, especially when it comes to their own counter-counter strategy players will back and forth a lot more frequently. I also mentioned earlier the situation where a player was countering the opponent's strategy by Solemning his own cards, which while that isn't a player responding to another player, is causing the two players to actually be involved in some sort of battle against one another, and thinking about their opponent's moves to act accordingly.

And in the end, it doesn't even matter if my argument is weak, because I'm not literally saying that Exodia is actually okay, Wheile it's good to have solid arguments, and while I think much of what I said drives its point home, I'm just giving it some sort of backing. Think of it like that one movie Thank You For Smoking. I'm supporting the underdog not because I think it's right, but because it's the underdog. Heart of the Underdog 2TK. So, feel free all you want to say that something I said isn't entirely true, though don't make it personal.
[/quote]We're complaining about Alt wins that don't take opponent interactions into account when making the deck. Every deck other than Exodia and Final Countdown don't care what the opponent does as long as they can draw. They don't use solemn, they don't use bottomless, book of moon, mystical space typhoon, or monster reborn. The closest they come is stall cards, which is just as bad because at that point you're not trying to play with your opponent, you're trying to play solitaire and shoo him away every time he tries to get your attention. You're almost not playing Yugioh when you play Exodia and Final Countdown.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

That's true that to an extent they don't consider player interaction, as the ultimate goal doesn't rely on the opponent's reactions. The side deck is really the only time when this comes into play, which I have mentioned a few times. And I do play Monster Reborn, as sad as it is to have to, in my Where Arf Thou build, but that's besides the point. I will give you that for the most part you don't care about the opponent's field. Though it's definitely not true that you simply build the deck to play solitaire. You do have to consider what the opponent might be playing, and what cards you can play to avoid playing into your opponent's own hand. Rai-Oh, for example, kills Where Arf Thou, Emmisary of the Afterlife, Sangan, and Duality. And because it's a simple card to play, and very common, you can't expect your opponent not to have it. Where Arf Thou also falls prey to exchanges since you are going to be summoning monsters more than once during the duel, and it's counter-productive to the end goal.

I have learned a lot about Exodia decks from playing them, and learned that there are wrong ways to play it by a great degree. It will (hopefully) never be possible to make an Exodia deck "consistent", and that margin of error is left up to the deck creator to mitigate through card choices and the ways they play these cards they're given. That's the only real skill involved in playing the deck. Battle Fader is a horrible choice to use alongside Hope for Escape, for example, and you don't play Toon Table of Contents "just because", nor set a Reckless Greed by itself unless you absolutely have to. If anyone knows who Dubkdad is, he talked about something like this, but about Goat Format, and how even though a player had broken cards they could play they had to wait for the perfect chance to activate them to get the most out of it, and that's where the pros separated themselves from the weaker players. I'm not saying I'm a pro, obviously, just that Exodia isn't completely as black and white as [i]most[/i] people see it.