Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1356369611' post='6101045']

Junon and Hyperion don't come back when you kill them.
[/quote]

Spellbook of Life?

[Agro]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1356370008' post='6101053']
ITT: a card attacks the game from a different angle so it's broken. Unless you think unlikely future possible cards are a remotely decent argument.
[/quote]That's the argument people used for REDMD for years.

And infinite revival for no cost isn't exactly "Attacking from a different angle". At least not in a way that's considered fair. In other words, you're missing the point again.

[quote name='Devil's Advocate' timestamp='1356370074' post='6101056']
Spellbook of Life?
[/quote]At least it takes effort to use that.

[.Rai]

Bah, it's balanced. Problem is that everyone in this thread claiming that this card is 'broken' actually means 'badly designed', which is completely different. Because frankly, there are plenty of completely balanced cards that are awful design.

Chris is basically right regarding balance though.

[This Account is Unplayable]

What the f*** is "fair"? Entirely vanilla creatures?

What the f*** is "fair"? Entirely vanilla creatures?

[Sora1499]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1356370008' post='6101053']
ITT: a card attacks the game from a different angle so it's broken. Unless you think unlikely future possible cards are a remotely decent argument.
[/quote]
There might be a reason why Grapha's angle has not been explored.

[This Account is Unplayable]

Because morons overreact?

[TheKaitoKid]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1356370602' post='6101066']
At least it takes effort to use that.
[/quote]
Yeah, so much effort to reveal 1 Spellbook and banish 1 monster from the graveyard. I mean seriously, the card is more or less costless.


OT: So much butthurt from people about Grapha. He's honestly not that bad. he's more or less a Vanilla beatstick. Nothing more.

[Sora1499]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1356373588' post='6101135']
Because morons overreact?
[/quote]
Because the design is screams abuse. Give graphs to agents or Atlantans and see what happens.

[Kingdom Xathers]

[quote name='Archlord Sora' timestamp='1356373731' post='6101141']

Because the design is screams abuse. Give graphs to agents or Atlantans and see what happens.
[/quote]

Atlantean Grapha

WATER/Sea-Serpent

When this card is sent to the Graveyard for the effect of a WATER monster: You can Special Summon this card from the Graveyard, and if you do, destroy 1 card on the field.

[Sora1499]

[quote name='Kingdom Xathers' timestamp='1356374045' post='6101147']
Atlantean Grapha
WATER/Sea-Serpent
When this card is sent to the Graveyard for the effect of a WATER monster: You can Special Summon this card from the Graveyard, and if you do, destroy 1 card on the field.
[/quote]
I want this.

[This Account is Unplayable]

That's just it, though, they didn't give it to Agents or Atlanteans, they gave it to Dark Worlds for a f***ing reason. Dark Worlds are a very small archetype with overall very weak cards, Grapha and the Dark World design in general allow the deck to attack from a different angle. This should be something people are happy about since it's not your average spam-the-board run-of-the-mill deck, but instead is a deck that attacks the hand and can stabilise using a revivable 2700-3000 atk beater. I don't see anyone calling Malefic Cyber End broken. I don't see anyone calling Call of the Haunted broken. Why should a less efficient version of the two stuck together with what's essentially an MST clause be called broken?

[D.A._Sakuyamon]

[quote name='Archlord Sora' timestamp='1356374268' post='6101149']
I want this.
[/quote]
Who wouldn't?
Use this to summon megalo, it ss's itself & pops, pay it for megalo's d-atk effect, it ss's itself & pops. yeah................

OT: Anyways, I like Grapha & to be honest people give grapha a bad rap. He does what he does and he hasn't been hit. Deal with it.

[Aix]

Fire Kings Grapha... Oh wait, Garunix is already there...

Wind-Ups Grapha... ?

HARPIES GRAPHA!
*******
WIND/Dragon-Type/Effect
This card's name is also treated as "Harpie Lady" while on the field or in the Graveyard. When this card is Summoned, destroy 1 card your opponent controls. This card gains 200 ATK for each "Harpie" monster in your Graveyard.
ATK 2000/DEF 2400

[Sora1499]

[quote name='AixDivadis' timestamp='1356374420' post='6101152']
HARPIES GRAPHA!
*******
WIND/Dragon-Type/Effect
This card's name is also treated as "Harpie Lady" while on the field or in the Graveyard. When this card is Summoned, destroy 1 card your opponent controls. This card gains 200 ATK for each "Harpie" monster in your Graveyard.
ATK 2000/DEF 2400
[/quote]
You forgot: "You can send 1 'Harpie' card you control to the graveyard; special summon this card from the graveyard.

Now it's perfect.

[Just Crouton]

It's a great card that supports bad cards, just like Machina Fortress and Gearframe for Machinas, and Harpie Channeler and Sign for Harpies.

I'm not seeing the issue. Old, bad cards need new, broken bosses to not be a complete waste. What bugs me is that they didn't make that new Amazoness support a couple years back broken as heck.

[EmpoleMew]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1356374393' post='6101150']
I don't see anyone calling Call of the Haunted broken.
[/quote]

You didn't see Agro's banlist.

[Kazooie]

[quote name='EmpoleMew' timestamp='1356376685' post='6101182']
You didn't see Agro's banlist.
[/quote]

Agro's list, no offense to him, was kinda meh from what I remember.

Besides, you can't cite a custom list when you're talking about the game like this. If you ban everything that makes the game what it is now, of course things will be different. But the REAL game isn't going back to Don Zoolag being a great card now. A custom list doesn't matter. What the game is NOW matters.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='EmpoleMew' timestamp='1356376685' post='6101182']
You didn't see Agro's banlist.
[/quote]

Evan's theory tends to suck.

[Sora1499]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1356374393' post='6101150']
That's just it, though, they didn't give it to Agents or Atlanteans, they gave it to Dark Worlds for a f***ing reason. Dark Worlds are a very small archetype with overall very weak cards, Grapha and the Dark World design in general allow the deck to attack from a different angle. This should be something people are happy about since it's not your average spam-the-board run-of-the-mill deck, but instead is a deck that attacks the hand and can stabilise using a revivable 2700-3000 atk beater. I don't see anyone calling Malefic Cyber End broken. I don't see anyone calling Call of the Haunted broken. Why should a less efficient version of the two stuck together with what's essentially an MST clause be called broken?
[/quote]

1. Stardust dragon isn't broken and Scrap dragon isn't broken, but a mash of these two would be downright unfair.
2. Malefics can't spam multiples. Malefics don't pop stuff. Malefics stay dead.

[This Account is Unplayable]

Yes, but you can't compare Stardust and Scrap Dragon since there's no actual way to water them down and then mesh them together, that's all Grapha is, a bunch of different cards watered down and stuck together.

Dark Worlds don't spam multiples unless they god-draw or the game goes long. Grapha only gets 3 pops, with only 3 of them in the deck, that's not many to draw into, and it's not uncommon to not be able to search for it with Snoww. So what? Grapha's harder to summon, but rewards that by being resilient to removal, which is one of the ways he attacks the game differently.

[Sora1499]

My stardust and scrap thing was actually kinda irrelevant, lol. That was a poor attempt to prove a point.

DWs are actually quite capable of spamming multiples. I've summoned 3 of em many times.

DWs, essentially, run a 15-card deck due to the crazy draw power they have, and they are capable of running 6 graphas. Considering you draw 5 cards to start, you'll always have access to at least 1 grapha.

[This Account is Unplayable]

That's not how probability works.

And as one who has played DWs for over a year, I can quite easily say that you can in no way get Grapha online for a long time in a lot of games, in which case, he's clearly not broken, since his deck sucks when it doesn't get the right cards which aren't as easy as some decks, since most other decks run cards that work well by themselves, whereas everything in DWs works in pairs. Also, yeah, DWs can spam, but incredibly rarely can they do anything like that before like turn 10, at which point every other deck has spammed the board 8 times.

[Agro]

[quote name='Kingdom Xathers' timestamp='1356374045' post='6101147']
Atlantean Grapha

WATER/Sea-Serpent

When this card is sent to the Graveyard for the effect of a WATER monster: You can Special Summon this card from the Graveyard, and if you do, destroy 1 card on the field.
[/quote]It'd be more "Send 1 WATER monster from your deck to the Graveyard; Special Summon this card from the Graveyard"

And because it's an Atlantean boss, they'd give it 2 more effects as well.

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1356376926' post='6101187']
Evan's theory tends to suck.
[/quote]My theory doesn't suck, it's just doesn't work because a company like Konami wouldn't dare do it.

In either case, it appears this entire topic is irrelevant because Chris's normative ideal is far off that of myself.

I want everything in the game to be well designed. Chris wants everything to be broken. We're not arguing against Grapha because it's balanced in it's current situation. We're arguing against Grapha because it's not balanced in the format that we should have (a well designed format)

However, that won't come around, so we're pretty much just screwed with what we got. Tons of cards people hate with a passion and people who play them and laugh at those who rage against it.

[Miror B]

Why should we argue about a format that doesn't exist?

[Agro]

[quote name='Meta~' timestamp='1356383611' post='6101248']
Why should we argue about a format that doesn't exist?
[/quote]We're arguing about how things should be.