Destiny Hero - Malicious

[Blake]

Pretty sure Dane/Frollo meant Tengu.

And no, Mali is in no way, shape, or form balanced. Learn card design before you start calling things balanced, because a +1 that rewards you for simply getting it in the Grave and has no restrictions beyond that is awful design at 3. It's arguably better than Tengu, at least pre-Tenki, and isn't even remotely balanced or well designed.

[Cute Rotten Yoshika]

no dont you see? there are only two kinds of decks. meta decks and fun and inspired tier 3 builds :). if its not meta then its fun and inspired :) and should go to 3. cant wait to use my fun and inspired yata-lock (its tier 3) :).

[Sora1499]

So what you're saying, essentially, is that Mali is a problem because D-Draw exists? Under that logic, D-Draw is the problem, not Mali. Not saying that Mali should go up, I think it's fine at 2.

[Cute Rotten Yoshika]

So what you're saying, essentially, is that Mali is a problem because D-Draw exists? Under that logic, D-Draw is the problem, not Mali. Not saying that Mali should go up, I think it's fine at 2.

 

the problem is mali is free deck thinning if you dump it in grave any single way you can imagine. d-draw is only part of the issue. mali at 3 means its no longer a stupidly powerful 1 shot effect but something you can use multiple times for effortless plussing.

 

oh, but wait. its not meta. so its fun and inspired and tier 3 :). nevermind.

[Sora1499]

[quote name="clairedestroyer" post="6172792" timestamp="1364741574"]the problem is mali is free deck thinning if you dump it in grave any single way you can imagine. d-draw is only part of the issue. mali at 3 means its no longer a stupidly powerful 1 shot effect but something you can use multiple times for effortless plussing.   oh, but wait. its not meta. so its fun and inspired and tier 3 :). nevermind.[/quote] I see what you mean, ok.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Pretty sure Dane/Frollo meant Tengu.

And no, Mali is in no way, shape, or form balanced. Learn card design before you start calling things balanced, because a +1 that rewards you for simply getting it in the Grave and has no restrictions beyond that is awful design at 3. It's arguably better than Tengu, at least pre-Tenki, and isn't even remotely balanced or well designed.

Being a +X doesn't automatically make a card badly designed or unbalanced. That would be like saying Treeborn Frog is broken because it's a continuous +1 from the grave and rewards you for simply dumping it there. You have to look at the deck as a whole to see what the product does. Decks aren't made of 3 cards so looking at cards in a vacuum doesn't always work. A level 6 with terrible stats which has a situational way to make +0 Xyz or Synchro monsters and requires proper timing is simply not awful design.

the problem is mali is free deck thinning if you dump it in grave any single way you can imagine. d-draw is only part of the issue. mali at 3 means its no longer a stupidly powerful 1 shot effect but something you can use multiple times for effortless plussing.

 

oh, but wait. its not meta. so its fun and inspired and tier 3 :). nevermind.

The fact that you think Mali at 2 is a "stupidly powerful 1 shot effect" shows just how out of touch with reality you are. Your extreme responses involving Yata and Disc Commander further prove you can't construct a proper argument for why Mali shouldn't be at 3.

[Sora1499]

[quote name="Superdoopertrooper" post="6172797" timestamp="1364741922"]Being a +X doesn't automatically make a card badly designed or unbalanced. That would be like saying Treeborn Frog is broken because it's a continuous +1 from the grave and rewards you for simply dumping it there. You have to look at the deck as a whole to see what the product does. Decks aren't made of 3 cards so looking at cards in a vacuum doesn't always work. A level 6 with terrible stats which has a situational way to make +0 Xyz or Synchro monsters and requires proper timing is simply not awful design.[/quote] Treeborn Frog used to be broken though, and is only non-borked nowadays due to power creep out the wazoo. So all you're saying with that statement is that Mali is still inherently broken. Decks can be centered around a small collection of cards and work just fine. Dumping Mali is hardly situational in any way. The stats don't matter, it's still synchro/Xyz food, and is arguably worse now that rank 6s are a thing.

[Blake]

Being a +X doesn't automatically make a card badly designed or unbalanced. That would be like saying Treeborn Frog is broken because it's a continuous +1 from the grave and rewards you for simply dumping it there. You have to look at the deck as a whole to see what the product does. Decks aren't made of 3 cards so looking at cards in a vacuum doesn't always work. A level 6 with terrible stats which has a situational way to make +0 Xyz or Synchro monsters and requires proper timing is simply not awful design.

Treeborn Frog IS bad design, so your argument kinda backfired. It's bad design for what you said. It's a recurring fodder that doesn't reward you for playing the game correctly, just for playing it. Note that it's not banworthy due to bad design, but it's not awful design like Mali.

Mali is awful design as well. It barely takes any thought to use, jus requires dumping it and having fodder to use it with. Not saying its a good idea, but with something like Constellar Kaus, any of the double summoners (especially Sombres), and Foolish, you can make 2 Rank 6s. Yes, one of them is a -1 Rank 6, but since when is that gonna be an issue when it's Rank 6? And that's certainly not thought provoking.

It IS. A fairly mindless restrictionless +1. To use your own arguments, weak stats mean nothing, or does Treeborn Frog suck because its stats are so low?

[Legend Zero]

Off-Topic: Cards that are broken are bad design, but bad design doesn't auto mean its broken. I feel like some people don't know this.

OT: Could he come back to 3? Yes. Would it cause a meta wreck? Possibly. Should Mali come back to 3? lolno

[Superdoopertrooper]

Treeborn Frog used to be broken though, and is only non-borked nowadays due to power creep out the wazoo. So all you're saying with that statement is that Mali is still inherently broken. Decks can be centered around a small collection of cards and work just fine. Dumping Mali is hardly situational in any way. The stats don't matter, it's still synchro/Xyz food, and is arguably worse now that rank 6s are a thing.

Treeborn was never broken as such, the cards around it simply weren't as good at the time. That would be like saying Gemini Elf was once broken because it was the best normal-summonable beat stick. Basically, what I'm saying is that Treeborn and Malicious are a good level at which the games power level should reside. If they represent what the best cards in the game are like in terms of power, then the game would be doing very well. Injection Fairy Lily used to be banned, as did United we Stand, that doesn't mean that in the big picture those cards are broken, it simply means that the game hadn't matured to the point where they were acceptable cards. There is a difference between maturation and pure power creep. "Power creep" has negative implications because it implies that the power of cards are crossing the border of what would be considered acceptable for the game. Maturation is merely the games average power level approaching an acceptable line drawn in the sand. Malicious at 3 definitely does not cross that line.

[Cute Rotten Yoshika]

treeborn frog is bad design because it inspires ( :)) decks that remove its drawback so you can consistently plus for free. free plusses are RARELY not bad. and before you stammer some crap about how its not meta or whatever, again it doesnt need to be. if thats literally your only metric of judging the balance of cards then you need to learn to expand your thought, analyze cards in a different light, and quit posting topics about how x borked card you like should go back to 3 because it isnt goddamn e-dragons.

[evilfusion]

A common argument I find is that a card deserves to be semi-limited if it has a negative interaction with multiple copies of itself. For example, Card Trooper at 3 was spammable with Machine Duplication. An argument could be made about Machine Dupe, but the issue still stood that Card Trooper should not be at 3, because it was abusable at 3. It was at 1 for a while, and then allowed back at 2. Using Machine Dupe on it while it was at 2 is hardly an advantage and it lacks the instant OTK that Trooper, Duplication, and Limiter Removal provided (argument can be made for Limiter Removal, but I digress).

 

Stratos searches itself, and a plethora of other targets. Thus, it got bumped down to 1, because it IMMEDIATELY is abusable with multiple copies of itself. Malicious and Tengu are sort of in the same vein, but Malicious has more potential in Lightsworn/Chaos and anything using D-Draw and/or Stratos. Like Exodia decks. (Please ban Exodia).

 

Malicious has an engine around it in the form of Stratos and D-Draw. We finally have more copies of D-Draw, which we'd have to axe if it we want Malicious at 3, and probably Stratos, too. Just because they have that potential, and just because the meta is broken doesn't mean those cards should be free to come back. This argument comes up every banlist when people say Magician of Faith should return because it's slow as a FLIP. The effect to recover one of the most powerful cards in the game is still too powerful to have without a huge drawback, like Magical Stones' cost.

 

That said, cards like Monster Reborn and BLS should be banned again, because they're blatantly power cards that do too much for too little. Compared to them, Malicious LOOKS harmless. But why take the chance? Just like why take the chance of bringing BLS back just because the OCG removed priority...terrible example, but the basis of banlist logic sometimes...

[Superdoopertrooper]

A common argument I find is that a card deserves to be semi-limited if it has a negative interaction with multiple copies of itself. For example, Card Trooper at 3 was spammable with Machine Duplication. An argument could be made about Machine Dupe, but the issue still stood that Card Trooper should not be at 3, because it was abusable at 3. It was at 1 for a while, and then allowed back at 2. Using Machine Dupe on it while it was at 2 is hardly an advantage and it lacks the instant OTK that Trooper, Duplication, and Limiter Removal provided (argument can be made for Limiter Removal, but I digress).

 

Stratos searches itself, and a plethora of other targets. Thus, it got bumped down to 1, because it IMMEDIATELY is abusable with multiple copies of itself. Malicious and Tengu are sort of in the same vein, but Malicious has more potential in Lightsworn/Chaos and anything using D-Draw and/or Stratos. Like Exodia decks. (Please ban Exodia).

 

Malicious has an engine around it in the form of Stratos and D-Draw. We finally have more copies of D-Draw, which we'd have to axe if it we want Malicious at 3, and probably Stratos, too. Just because they have that potential, and just because the meta is broken doesn't mean those cards should be free to come back. This argument comes up every banlist when people say Magician of Faith should return because it's slow as a FLIP. The effect to recover one of the most powerful cards in the game is still too powerful to have without a huge drawback, like Magical Stones' cost.

 

That said, cards like Monster Reborn and BLS should be banned again, because they're blatantly power cards that do too much for too little. Compared to them, Malicious LOOKS harmless. But why take the chance? Just like why take the chance of bringing BLS back just because the OCG removed priority...terrible example, but the basis of banlist logic sometimes...

 

If a card negatively self-interacts, then sure. Neither Mali or Card Trooper negatively self-interact though. The reason they don't is because they are strictly combo cards which require the use of other mediocre interactions in order to work. Cards like Stratos and Tgu don't, you simply play them straight from your hand, get your +1, and they don't just self-interact, they interact with heaps of other cards. Stratos can search any other Hero monster, and Tgu can bring out any other level 3 fiend. The fact that Mali is restricted to only being able to get another copy of himself is in fact what balances him very well.

 

Card Trooper should also go to 3. Troop Dupe decks are incredibly inconsistent and aren't competitive in the slightest. Anyone that thinks Troop Dupe is actually a problem mustn't know anything about the mathematics of probability. The chance of opening with exactly 1 Card Trooper and at least 1 Machine Duplication is about 12%, or nearly 1 in every 8.5 games. Machine Dupe has no good targets outside of Trooper, the next best being Cyber Valley which is mediocre and the deck overall would simply be a mess. Try making the deck, you'll instantly see what I mean.

 

It doesn't matter if Mali has an engine involving him, D-Draw and Stratos. Being an engine alone doesn't constitute being problematic. Neither Stratos nor D-Draw would need to be touched in order to put Mali to 3. The Magician of Faith argument is perfectly valid and always has been, it never should have been banned in the first place and Magician of Faith is not anywhere near too powerful. Even using it get get back power spells like Monster Reborn and Heavy Storm is a perfectly reasonable thing. It's slow, weak, vulnerable to destruction, usually bad early game when there's nothing much in the grave and 9 times out of 10 will be destroyed by battle when it gets its effect, so it's a +0 that cost you your normal summon and momentum. How people think it should still be banned astounds me to be honest.

 

Malicious is mostly harmless, and looks it, so that is the perfect reason to move it to 3. If by miracle it does end up doing something spectacular there which is extremely unlikely, then you can always move it back. Moving it to 3 wont cause the game to magically implode by any means, so it's a perfectly safe card to move to 3.

[evilfusion]

Solid argument. I personally have no issue with Malicious' position, either at 3 or 2.

 

But it hardly seems like a card that would get any sort of priority list attention. Malicious is a blip on the radar. It exists, and was used to spectacular effect for an entire format, if I recall, which involved E-Teleport (which is actually at 3 now that Mind Master is rightfully banned) and Synchros, plus DAD. Sometimes Konami removes limitations, and maybe Malicious will be un-semi'd in a future format because it's so irrelevant to the meta now.

[Legend Zero]

The giant problem here is that you and almost everyone else are talking about different things.

You think that every card that won't be meta should come back, which is logical and a konami mindset. However, everyone else is saying that these cards are badly designed (even though they are not broken) and should not come back.

If a card negatively self-interacts, then sure. Neither Mali or Card Trooper negatively self-interact though. The reason they don't is because they are strictly combo cards which require the use of other mediocre interactions in order to work. Cards like Stratos and Tgu don't, you simply play them straight from your hand, get your +1, and they don't just self-interact, they interact with heaps of other cards. Stratos can search any other Hero monster, and Tgu can bring out any other level 3 fiend. The fact that Mali is restricted to only being able to get another copy of himself is in fact what balances him very well.

>calling Troop-Dupe-Scoop and Mali-Stratos-DDraw mediocre
>the 2 examples you are using of being worse are equal of higher on the list

imo, this is basically just trying to say, "there is something else better so these should be free."

Card Trooper should also go to 3. Troop Dupe decks are incredibly inconsistent and aren't competitive in the slightest. Anyone that thinks Troop Dupe is actually a problem mustn't know anything about the mathematics of probability. The chance of opening with exactly 1 Card Trooper and at least 1 Machine Duplication is about 12%, or nearly 1 in every 8.5 games. Machine Dupe has no good targets outside of Trooper, the next best being Cyber Valley which is mediocre and the deck overall would simply be a mess. Try making the deck, you'll instantly see what I mean.

Troop-Dupe-Scoop was a thing for awhile, so I don't understand how the deck would be a mess. Of course, the deck would be ripped by today's meta but that doesn't mean we want another OTK back. It would only be a matter of time before it gets broke.

It doesn't matter if Mali has an engine involving him, D-Draw and Stratos. Being an engine alone doesn't constitute being problematic. Neither Stratos nor D-Draw would need to be touched in order to put Mali to 3. The Magician of Faith argument is perfectly valid and always has been, it never should have been banned in the first place and Magician of Faith is not anywhere near too powerful. Even using it get get back power spells like Monster Reborn and Heavy Storm is a perfectly reasonable thing. It's slow, weak, vulnerable to destruction, usually bad early game when there's nothing much in the grave and 9 times out of 10 will be destroyed by battle when it gets its effect, so it's a +0 that cost you your normal summon and momentum. How people think it should still be banned astounds me to be honest.

I thought everyone on the forum agreed that MoF was fine to come back? Even though its design is ridiculous.

Malicious is mostly harmless, and looks it, so that is the perfect reason to move it to 3. If by miracle it does end up doing something spectacular there which is extremely unlikely, then you can always move it back. Moving it to 3 wont cause the game to magically implode by any means, so it's a perfectly safe card to move to 3.

As a competitive player it pains me to read this.

[Superdoopertrooper]

The giant problem here is that you and almost everyone else are talking about different things.

You think that every card that won't be meta should come back, which is logical and a konami mindset. However, everyone else is saying that these cards are badly designed (even though they are not broken) and should not come back.

I'm talking about the exact same thing as they are. I'm not sure if you've read the whole thread or not, but I'm not just saying these cards should go to 3 because there are better decks out there. I'm saying that these cards at 3 are at an acceptable level of power for the game.

 

>calling Troop-Dupe-Scoop and Mali-Stratos-DDraw mediocre
>the 2 examples you are using of being worse are equal of higher on the list

Troop-Dupe-Poop isn't just mediocre, it's borderline trash. By all means, go on DN and make deck list for us all to see. I've actually done this and the deck was just really bad.

 

imo, this is basically just trying to say, "there is something else better so these should be free."
Troop-Dupe-Scoop was a thing for awhile, so I don't understand how the deck would be a mess. Of course, the deck would be ripped by today's meta but that doesn't mean we want another OTK back. It would only be a matter of time before it gets broke.

Again, not saying that at all. Warrior toolbox was a thing for a while, but the game is no longer like that, it wasn't even like that 5 years ago. Troop Dupe is a relic of the past.

 

I thought everyone on the forum agreed that MoF was fine to come back? Even though its design is ridiculous.

How the fudge is its design ridiculous? It's like mask of darkness but slightly better due to spells generally being better than Traps. Its design is literally perfect, you give up your normal summon and wait a turn to get back a spell from a usually small selection of spells from your grave. Big freaking whoop. There are millions of better plays than doing that.

 

As a competitive player it pains me to read this.

Competitive =/= knowledgeable about banlist matters. Billy Brake wanted to hit Hunter and leave it at that back when wind-ups were hand looping.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Competitive =/= knowledgeable about banlist matters. Billy Brake wanted to hit Hunter and leave it at that back when wind-ups were hand looping.

 

But at that time the only thing the deck did was Hand-loop, not the Magician loop. So it was a valid thing to say. Would've been the worse hit at the time, but still.

 

Mali at 3, whilst on paper it appears like a perfectly fine thing to happen, it will undoubtable lead into more decks like Tele-DAD. Now, that's not to say that Tele-DAD will come back, because it won't, but frankly the format atm is so bad I think every player doesn't want cards like this to come back because they want the game state to improve. Will Mali directly improve the game? No. Will it lead into more degenerate OTK inspired decks? Probably.

 

What does, is as many people have pointed out, reward you for simply playing the game. Your argument against it compared to Tour Guide is that it requires combo plays in order to make use of it. Incarnates require you to use other dragons to summon them, does that make them fine to leave at 3? Judgement Day requires you to play other cards, does that make it fine to leave at 3? Now you are probably going to shoot down my logic there (Well everyone is), but just because a card requires other cards to make usage of it, does not make it fine in comparison to stuff that doesn't.

 

And, what decent decks really normal summon anymore? Like that actually serves as part of Faith's good design. It being a Flip effect might, but not you having to use up it's normal summon.

 

You were talking about maturation of the game earlier in the thread. Now, obviously if the game was maturing, it must have reached that point. And looking at the game state now, you can't say it is still under going maturation, and that it isn't just power creep. Mali does not make the game state better, and whilst this is my opinion, there's no need to bring it back other than the fact we could, since it's not certain to make things any worse. If you can give a reason why bringing Mali back makes the game state any better, which is what a banlist should be about, then I'm sure everyone could agree with you.

[Cute Rotten Yoshika]

except he wont because he just wants his shit borked cards to come back~