Why is this still @1? [Gateway of the Six]

[Strider Tigerwolf]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GPYUuMMMY0[/media]

 

 

Srzly....discuss.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Because Sams aren't meta.

 

OT: It's broken, and pretty much a win condition. Should be gone, forever.

[Sora1499]

One of those cards that should be hit, but probably won't.

[Althemia]

[spoiler=Spoilers]Should be banned and this game will never be half decent until this is gone to be honest.

 

The saying "Put up or shut up" comes into play here. If putting it to 2 would be that broken, then show us how it would be. Give us a quantitative mathematical description of how a deck with 2 Gateway of the Six Samurai in it would even be remotely feasible, even in the most casual of circumstances. What is the raw probability of this card occurring? How susceptible is it to interruption from the opponent? Cards are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is on those advocating its ban. So far, no one has actually given a quantitative reason for why Gateway of the Six Samurai shouldn't be unlimited. If you give one and it is mathematically sound, then sure, I'll be the first to concede your point and commend you for it.[/spoiler]

[Resident Fascist]

gee i cannot wait for all the excellent discussion that awaits us in this new and exciting topic!

[Toffee.]

This card was stupid at first, then become idiotic when Legendaries came out, with all of their "Special Summon this from the Hand"-effects.
So literally, your just pulling Samurais from the Deck for no effort what so ever.

[Dementuo]

[spoiler=Spoilers]Should be banned and this game will never be half decent until this is gone to be honest.

 

The saying "Put up or shut up" comes into play here. If putting it to 2 would be that broken, then show us how it would be. Give us a quantitative mathematical description of how a deck with 2 Gateway of the Six Samurai in it would even be remotely feasible, even in the most casual of circumstances. What is the raw probability of this card occurring? How susceptible is it to interruption from the opponent? Cards are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is on those advocating its ban. So far, no one has actually given a quantitative reason for why Gateway of the Six Samurai shouldn't be unlimited. If you give one and it is mathematically sound, then sure, I'll be the first to concede your point and commend you for it.[/spoiler]

The following is my attempt to answer Koko's challenge of providing "Evidence" as to why Gateway should be banned. This particular wall of text will be ignoring the "Luck" factor of the game. I will also NOT be talking about Gateway's counterability, as that holds no bearing on this card's power and has already been decided to be a pointless argument.

[spoiler=Spoiler]When a very consistent deck that can function very well on its own also has the potential for an OTK, or even an FTK, exists due to a single card, that's when it becomes a problem. Six Sams have already proven themselves to be a consistent without Gateway and can hold their own against any current-day matchup (Sans OCG Elemental Dragons). With this consistency already in place, Six Sams are easily listed as being part of the "Undermeta" in the current format. The reason they aren't doing better is because of Mermails and Elementals. Basically, the format isn't allowing them to be meta. That fact alone, however, doesn't stop them from being a powerful deck with a large arsenal of options; Gateway only adds to that arsenal.

Now we get to the actual FTK. Out of 40 cards, only 4 are needed. Two of those must be Gateway and Hand. In total, you can run 1 Gateway and 3 Hand, which means you have a 6/40 (or 15%) chance of drawing the essential card (Gateway). For Hand, the chance will either be (running 1) the same as Gateway with 6/40, (running 2) 12/40 or 30%, or (running 3) 18/40 or 45%. The remaining two pieces are any combination of United, Dojo, and (though never used) Temple. In a standard build, 3 United and 1-2 Dojo are run. That is a total of 4 or 5 copies of the card, only requiring to draw 2 of them. The chance of that is 12/40 and 15/40, or 30% and 37.5% respectively. A Six Sam build that runs 3 Dojo would have a solid 45% chance. If 3 Temple were run, that would be a whole 67.5%, well over half.

Certainly, it's less consistent opening the FTK than, say, Divine Wind FTK is, but Divine Wind FTK is less consistent as a deck. In other words, it's designed for the FTK, while Six Samurai are designed to be a Control/Aggro deck that has a large OTK potential.

To end this bundle of text, I would like to point out the very large toolbox that Six Sams have, which is made ever-more accessible by the presence of this card.[/spoiler]

[玄魔の王]

I remember back when I was making new threads for WC pretty much every day, I contributed to the discussion on what cards should and shouldn't be made. One of those rules was basically:

 

[quote]

Don't make a card that turns the duel into a game of chance

[/quote]

 

While that rules was meant to mean "don't make a ton of dice roll or coin flip cards", it also means "don't make anything that creates FTKs just by being lucky enough to open with card x". Gateway stomps all over that rule. As said above, when the only reason a deck with a broken card like this isn't meta is "there are even more broken decks", you know something's wrong. This card needs to go.

[evilfusion]

It was even worse when Shi En was at 3, and Gateway was at more than 1. Having 2 copies of Gateway read "Add any Six Sam to your hand any time you Summon a Six Sam".

[Volcanism]

Brokenness is a relative concept. When the game first came out an 1800 ATK lev 4 vanilla would have been crazy broken. Ban worthy. I think we NEED to take into account the relative power in the meta when judging the strength of SS.

[Resident Fascist]

Brokenness is a relative concept. When the game first came out an 1800 ATK lev 4 vanilla would have been crazy broken. Ban worthy. I think we NEED to take into account the relative power in the meta when judging the strength of SS.

 

Are you attempting to say that Gateway is in any way justifiable at all? If so, what the hell are you smoking?

[Volcanism]

I'm saying we can't say it's broke but everything else is more broke. At least not until we agree on what the power level of the game should be.

[Resident Fascist]

I'm saying we can't say it's broke but everything else is more broke. At least not until we agree on what the power level of the game should be.

 

"Everything else is more broke" isn't a valid argument. Overpowered cards shouldn't exist. Period.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

Gateway is broken because it creates massive advantage by taking advantage of what six sams do best: Spam.

 

It's their own Future Fusion....

[Volcanism]

Exactly my point. How can we say something is "overpowered" if we don't have an idea for what "powered" would be.

[Resident Fascist]

Exactly my point. How can we say something is "overpowered" if we don't have an idea for what "powered" would be.

 

Gateway is pretty clearly overpowered. 

[Volcanism]

I understand that that is how you like to think. I get that you've been here for a year saying exactly that shit over and over again. Lets change that and think deeper. If this is overpowered where do we want the game to be? What is the right power level? Why?

[Resident Fascist]

I understand that that is how you like to think. I get that you've been here for a year saying exactly that shit over and over again. Lets change that and think deeper. If this is overpowered where do we want the game to be? What is the right power level? Why?

 

you're funny.

 

We want the game to not be degenerate. 'Perfect' doesn't exist but there are certainly a lot of cards in the game that just need to be shown the door, this being one of them. 

[Volcanism]

Then what though? New decks will emerge as the best and will seem overpowered. Where does it end? When is the game balanced?

[Resident Fascist]

Then what though? New decks will emerge as the best and will seem overpowered. Where does it end? When is the game balanced?

 

When the game isn't degenerate. There's a difference between a game with a metagame, which implies a healthy gamestate on a competetive level, and a degenerating, crumbling mess, similar to the state YGO is in right now. The game is dying, very slowly, but it's happening. The cards have to get more powerful, this is a granted, otherwise the game would die to a lack of funds. However, the power creep as is, it's beyond absurd. Look at cards from say, 2 years ago, to cards now. Something is clearly wrong. Konami isn't even trying anymore.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Then what though? New decks will emerge as the best and will seem overpowered. Where does it end? When is the game balanced?

 

It can't be anymore, because we are past the tipping point.

 

The game survives as a buisness for Konami by making each new set more powerful than the next. Years ago, they could have picked a different method to do things than this, but they haven't.

 

However, this card is always going to be broken, just not always overpowered. Or is it the otherway around? One of the two anyhow. Trying to say his can exist because the game state is so bad is bad, because we want the game state to be better.

 

Sadly however, short of the game resetting, it's impossible for it to be balanced. 

[swag swag swag swag swag s]

[spoiler=Spoilers]Should be banned and this game will never be half decent until this is gone to be honest.

 

The saying "Put up or shut up" comes into play here. If putting it to 2 would be that broken, then show us how it would be. Give us a quantitative mathematical description of how a deck with 2 Gateway of the Six Samurai in it would even be remotely feasible, even in the most casual of circumstances. What is the raw probability of this card occurring? How susceptible is it to interruption from the opponent? Cards are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is on those advocating its ban. So far, no one has actually given a quantitative reason for why Gateway of the Six Samurai shouldn't be unlimited. If you give one and it is mathematically sound, then sure, I'll be the first to concede your point and commend you for it.[/spoiler]

 

 

All of this. You can't be serious, Gateway is a terribly designed card. It should either stay at 1 or get Banned.

[Resident Fascist]

It can't be anymore, because we are past the tipping point.

 

We can be balanced, but it would require a massive purge of cards, something I doubt Konami is willing to do.

[Volcanism]

Can you define a healthy meta game or are we expected to know it when it happens?

[Resident Fascist]

Can you define a healthy meta game or are we expected to know it when it happens?

 

5-6 Viable decks, all of them doing different things but other decks can still compete, level of skill required to play well. To a certain degree, a budget deck in the meta that's viable also helps, top tier decks shouldn't be avaliable to only those with the most money. This is mostly beyond the company's control, however.