Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 It is possible that the effect could be altered to only allow its ATK to become something like... 2000? Depends on how it's used in the manga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldry_lord Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 It is possible that the effect could be altered to only allow its ATK to become something like... 2000? Depends on how it's used in the manga. It goes straight to 3000 in the manga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Uh, Yuzuru? "...but it lasts only this turn." Translated into OCG, "These changes last until the End Phase." So no, not an eternal 3k beater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Uh, Yuzuru? "...but it lasts only this turn." Translated into OCG, "These changes last until the End Phase." So no, not an eternal 3k beater.We're did I say beater? I said monster. Use context clues. 3000 DEF Power up 3000 ATK Power down, switch to defense Repeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldry_lord Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 We're did I say beater? I said monster Use context clues. 3000 DEF Power up 3000 ATK Power down, switch to defense Repeat Maybe it'll be like ZW - Leo Arms where it can't attack directly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 We're did I say beater? I said monster. Use context clues. 3000 DEF Power up 3000 ATK Power down, switch to defense Repeat 3k DEF doesn't really mean jack these days with how easy it is to blow it up. Or Fiendish Chain it even it goes to attack position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 3k DEF doesn't really mean jack these days with how easy it is to blow it up. Or Fiendish Chain it even it goes to attack position. ... 3K Defense means a lot, or are you telling me Redox isn't a wall in the slightest and never gets used as one? Arguing negation's also a stupid point because it doesn't change the core issues with the design of the card, nor does it truly stop it from being a 3K beater/defender overall, only in cases where you HAVE the negation. Unlike the negation, this can be dropped anytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugendramon Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 3k DEF doesn't really mean jack these days with how easy it is to blow it up. Or Fiendish Chain it even it goes to attack position. But that's not the point. The point is that it's a huge motherfucker by day- And an equally huge NOPE at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 ... 3K Defense means a lot, or are you telling me Redox isn't a wall in the slightest and never gets used as one? Arguing negation's also a stupid point because it doesn't change the core issues with the design of the card, nor does it truly stop it from being a 3K beater/defender overall, only in cases where you HAVE the negation. Unlike the negation, this can be dropped anytime. Not since Jeweled Red Dragon became a thing. Why sit on a 3k wall that lasts a turn, when you can have a 3k beater that blows up the enemy problems? Besides, we've reached a point where Rank 4s are so saturated, especially 2-mat ones, that it needs to do something really good to justify running it over... how many things again? Oh yeah, a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Not since Jeweled Red Dragon became a thing. Why sit on a 3k wall that lasts a turn, when you can have a 3k beater that blows up the enemy problems? Besides, we've reached a point where Rank 4s are so saturated, especially 2-mat ones, that it needs to do something really good to justify running it over... how many things again? Oh yeah, a lot. In what universe are 2 Level 4s inherently similar to a Level 8 Synchro? That's like comparing apples and oranges and saying a big orange is always better than an apple in all cases. A 3000 beater for 2 material's a pretty good reason to run it, especially when its "drawback" makes it live longer, if you hadn't noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 In what universe are 2 Level 4s inherently similar to a Level 8 Synchro? That's like comparing apples and oranges and saying a big orange is always better than an apple in all cases. The one with Plant Rulers, where making a LV8 Synchro on a whim is another day at the office. In other words, this one. Also, oranges can be used to make fruit salad, screw a pie. A 3000 beater for 2 material's a pretty good reason to run it, especially when its "drawback" makes it live longer, if you hadn't noticed. Actually, that was my point. If this thing switched stats for a turn then stayed in ATK position, it would suck. Allowing it to change position at least makes it not worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldry_lord Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Maybe it'll have a "no direct attack" clause like Leo Arms, or detach 2 for that effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Maybe it'll have a "no direct attack" clause like Leo Arms, or detach 2 for that effect? Double-detach is very possible given how many manga Numbers have been nerfed with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 The one with Plant Rulers, where making a LV8 Synchro on a whim is another day at the office. In other words, this one. Also, oranges can be used to make fruit salad, screw a pie. Actually, that was my point. If this thing switched stats for a turn then stayed in ATK position, it would suck. Allowing it to change position at least makes it not worthless. Plant Rulers? You mean the worthless variant that's really shit anywhere off of paper? Blue-Eyes Rulers or Dragunity Rulers, sure, but Plant Rulers are a fucking joke. Not saying this takes way from your argument, just saying. lv. 1 + Lv. 7 is' comparable to this at all. Rulers can't even make this, so comparing them's at the point of sheer stupidity, as they do different things in different decks. In exchange, it makes it horribly designed in the wrong direction. I'd rather a mediocre collector's item than an unfair card that says 3000 all-day-erry-day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldry_lord Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 I'd rather a mediocre collector's item than an unfair card that says 3000 all-day-erry-day. Are you sure about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugendramon Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Are you sure about this? He's big about the general state of the game so yes I'd say he's serious. Because free 3000 bodies out of 2 Level 4 are a power creep factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldry_lord Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 He's big about the general state of the game so yes I'd say he's serious. Because free 3000 bodies out of 2 Level 4 are a power creep factor. Keep in mind that this might not even be generic when it's printed, but I understand what he's saying. I'm still a bit salty about some of the horrible nerfs some of the Numbers had gotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 It looks pretty cool in the manga, but anyways, I could see them making it have to detach 2. It would actually make a lot of sense. A monster crab that bides its time undisturbed, and then suddenly awakens for a brief rampage, only to return to its slumber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizarus Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Unlike Cowboy, it's a 3k wall against Skill Drain, and that's more than enough for me to consider running this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Not since Jeweled Red Dragon became a thing. Why sit on a 3k wall that lasts a turn, when you can have a 3k beater that blows up the enemy problems? Because you don't run tuners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Plant Rulers? You mean the worthless variant that's really shit anywhere off of paper? Blue-Eyes Rulers or Dragunity Rulers, sure, but Plant Rulers are a fucking joke. Not saying this takes way from your argument, just saying. lv. 1 + Lv. 7 is' comparable to this at all. Rulers can't even make this, so comparing them's at the point of sheer stupidity, as they do different things in different decks. In exchange, it makes it horribly designed in the wrong direction. I'd rather a mediocre collector's item than an unfair card that says 3000 all-day-erry-day. Any variant of Rulers will do really, the point being they can make 8s on a whim. And that comment was in response to the Redox argument, I'm not comparing it to this. To me, the difference comes from the fact that beaters are dynamic, walls are static. A dynamic beater allows you to actually be proactive, hitting the opponent and forcing them into a defensive position while you're able to build resources. A static wall also allows you to build resources, but since it doesn't directly put pressure on the opponent they get a chance to do the same. If you summon anything else, it becomes fair game for them to hit it; sit on just a wall for too long, they will draw an out and you'll have wasted precious turns. So no, I don't see a 3k wall being as bad as a 3k beater. Now this thing is trickier, because it is capable of being both, and that does make it more of a pain. The issue is it's only able to do so twice at most, since it detaches for cost. After using its effect twice, it can be a wall and only a wall. I'm not saying that it makes the card perfectly balanced, I'm just saying the fundamental design isn't as flawed as you make it out to be. Mediocre? 0 in atk position would make it absolutely terrible. And while that's great logic for some, the sheer number of Numbers that absolutely suck is too damn high. Because you don't run tuners? That's a reasonable argument, yes, though every deck runs Veiler now. It looks pretty cool in the manga, but anyways, I could see them making it have to detach 2. It would actually make a lot of sense. A monster crab that bides its time undisturbed, and then suddenly awakens for a brief rampage, only to return to its slumber. Pretty accurate description actually. Plus it means it can only beat once, and then it's a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 That's a reasonable argument, yes, though every deck runs Veiler now. Veiler can't help make this, so the comparison is unfit. The only way you'll be able to compare this with a lvl 8 synchro is with 2 level 4s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Veiler can't help make this, so the comparison is unfit. The only way you'll be able to compare this with a lvl 8 synchro is with 2 level 4s. You responded to my response to Redox as a wall, I didn't realise you'd changed the operating parameters. As for the 2 LV4s, plenty of ways to do it. Fire Kings can if they choose to tech Magician, Summoner Monk can, Scraps Can, Spore off its own effect + LV4, Masked Chameleon, etc. So yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 You responded to my response to Redox as a wall, I didn't realise you'd changed the operating parameters. As for the 2 LV4s, plenty of ways to do it. Fire Kings can if they choose to tech Magician, Summoner Monk can, Scraps Can, Spore off its own effect + LV4, Masked Chameleon, etc. So yeah. I responded to the part about Jeweled Dragon and Crab King. I didn't quote the part about Redox. The point I'm making is unless your running a level 4 tuner in your lvl 4s, You're going to have to settle for Rank 4s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldry_lord Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 You want a deck that can choose between Level 8 Synchros and Rank 4 Xyz's? Hunders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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