Dragon Ravine

[heraldry_lord]

Simply put, if a card serves no purpose beyond enabling degenerate decks, ban it.

 

So ban Machu Mech then?

[Lonk]

Says someone who think Bujins are fine for the game.

 

We can debate about that in some other appropriate thread, but not this thread.  Right now, we just have to talk crap about Dragon Ravine and learn how to tell lolDNusers why this card is bad for the game.

[heraldry_lord]

We can debate about that in some other appropriate thread, but not this thread.  Right now, we just have to talk crap about Dragon Ravine and learn how to tell lolDNusers why this card is bad for the game.

 

Bad for the game? The game itself is incredibly flawed, and has experienced rather obscene power creep for a good while now.  I don't know if you've noticed, but the way the game is now, a deck has to be a tad bit OP to even stand a chance of being truly competitive (and this is even without Dragon Rulers dominating almost everything).  Dragon Ravine is a powerful card, and I won't deny that, but I will be honest in saying that unless the game gets a massive meta nuke dropped on it and/or has new rules put in place to reverse the damage the power creep has done to it, IMO all banning Ravine will end up doing is making a few decks more irrelevant. 

 

Also just so you know, I don't play Dragunity, so I have no real reason to care about Ravine. 

[玄魔の王]

So ban Machu Mech then?

Ban anything that looks like it will cause problems, before it can. Mind you, Ravine has already caused too many problems as-is.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Ideal way is to completely overhaul the game, it's too broken to hit imbalanced cards, due to many of them can be classified as it.

 

What they can do best now is to hit overwhelming card, and I guess this card qualifies for being the enabler part of the best deck in the format.

[Aerion Brightflame]

You can't really address the imbalance issues with the game anymore. Short of either a) Doing an Agro and hitting most every deck in the game, or just stopping the game and restarting it, with better considered mechanics in part.

 

Now the idea of not banning cards so as they can make decks stay relevant is a neat if t flawed one. Because there's two ways of making deck relivant in this game: You scale all decks up to continual high levels of power, which leaves more and more decks out of touch, and the game in a worse and worse state. Or: You get rid of degenerate stuff, let the decks there in die, and let the game become more diverse because more decks can reach the power bar needed to be meta, and there's less of a gap between tiers as a result.

 

It's the sad side of power creep being used as a commercial tool in that it turns the game like this.

 

So in short: Don't just hit one degenerate thing, hit all the degenerate things, or reset the game and rebuild it from the bottom up. Neither are exactly easy to achieve, but it's interesting to theorize at the very least. It's much more interesting to consider than how the game currently is.

 

Also again I have to say: This is not the issue with Dragons, Dragons are the issue with the Dragons. This is an enabler. One that should also die, but still.

[Synchronized]

Am I alone in thinking Gold Sarc is fine @ 1 and really doesn't need to be moved?

 

Oh well.

 

But yeah, I expect this to take a hit.  My best guess has this going to 1, Sacred Swords going to 1-2, and the Dragons themselves going to 2.  And perhaps they'll finally hit Dandylion because there's really no reason for that little fucker to exist anymore.

[Alastar Rainford]

Ban this card and Semi the Rulers.
Gotta sell those Ruler tins somehow

[Blake]

So ban Machu Mech then?

Manchu Mech's a horrible card for the game that exists to only OTK. In an ideal world, yes, it would be banned.

As no, Neo, you're not te only one that thinks Gold Sarco is fine.

Furthermore, being well designed and being weak are not mutual concepts. Being powerful and OP or degenerate are not inherently mutual. If the gamestate is to ever improve, things like the TCG banlist need to keep happening.

[Althemia]

Banned:
Dragon Ravine
Return from the Different Dimension

Limited:
Seven Star Sword
(Dragunity Knight - Vajrayana)

Semi-Limited:
Every Big Ruler

goddamnit YCM is this really so fucking hard to hit what is actually an incredibly easy to hit deck

This card should die now though, now that Dragunity have been the best deck for a format.

[玄魔の王]

I still say Rulers will remain problematic cards until they're all banned.

[Althemia]

I still say Rulers will remain problematic cards until they're all banned.

Not particularly. The reason why they're so prominent is because you're safe to continuously banish other dragons while not fearing a loss in advantage. The deck will not die while they're at 2, but will be in an incredibly crippled state. Putting them to 1 makes them feel incredibly weak and not worth playing period. Not something we should advocate.

[玄魔の王]

Not particularly. The reason why they're so prominent is because you're safe to continuously banish other dragons while not fearing a loss in advantage. The deck will not die while they're at 2, but will be in an incredibly crippled state. Putting them to 1 makes them feel incredibly weak and not worth playing period. Not something we should advocate.

Give me one good reason why any card this fundamentally flawed in design deserves to exist at all.

[Althemia]

Give me one good reason why any card this fundamentally flawed in design deserves to exist at all.

The cards are only degenerate when put together. There, I said it. Flack me all you want.

[heraldry_lord]

Furthermore, being well designed and being weak are not mutual concepts. Being powerful and OP or degenerate are not inherently mutual. If the gamestate is to ever improve, things like the TCG banlist need to keep happening.

 

I didn't anticipate the TCG banlist banning Gateway and Card Destruction, so I agree there.

 

Also I remember when no-one cared about Gold Sarcophagus outside of rogue decks like Final Countdown.

[Blake]

Give me one good reason why any card this fundamentally flawed in design deserves to exist at all.

Because if you purge all the bad design in the game the game becomes boring and stale.

There are different levels of bad design. At 2, they're glorified Attribute-Support Tengus and wouldn't be degenerate.

Tengus, albeit glorified, are not even remotely comparable to the degree of bad design that the Babies managed to achieve.

[heraldry_lord]

There are different levels of bad design. At 2, they're glorified Attribute-Support Tengus and wouldn't be degenerate.

 

To be fair, you can't really predict this, since the card pool is always expanding, and older cards can be broken by new cards. Gold Sarc is a decent example of that.

[Althemia]

To be fair, you can't really predict this, since the card pool is always expanding, and older cards can be broken by new cards. Gold Sarc is a decent example of that.

Which is why putting them to 2 would be a good way of testing waters. Tidal could honestly go to 1 because lolwater is still ridic.

[Wildflame]

I'd say that the Dragons at 2 would probably be fine, but I wouldn't take chances (see last format, everyone thought the deck would tone down without the babies) and put them at 1 anyways.

 

Ravine at 1 sounds ideal to me, but I wouldn't cry if they ban it. If Dragunities need another hit, Dux to 2 or 1 sounds reasonable.

 

Sword is harmless without Rulers. And yeah, Sarcophagus is also an ok card.

 

Oh yeah, and RftDD needs to be erased from this planet, with or without Rulers.

[Althemia]

Sword is harmless without Rulers. And yeah, Sarcophagus is also an ok card.

FishTK w/ D.D.R. and Mermail are pretty good decks. That and it's restrictive of future card designs, I guess. Would rather not risk a literal PoG being around

[玄魔の王]

Because if you purge all the bad design in the game the game becomes boring and stale.

Explain to me how a game state where you had constrained resources and had to actually use strategy and thought process to win games is "boring and stale". Have you ever played chess? 

There are different levels of bad design. At 2, they're glorified Attribute-Support Tengus and wouldn't be degenerate.

Tengus, albeit glorified, are not even remotely comparable to the degree of bad design that the Babies managed to achieve.

That's what they would be based on what we have now. However, as you and many others have stated, one of the big features that determines how bad a card is for the game is how much it limits future card design. Between Rulers and Chaos Dragons, basically any Dragon printed from now on is asking to be abused. And comparing them to the baby Dragons is an exercise in stating the obvious.

[Blake]

Explain to me how a game state where you had constrained resources and had to actually use strategy and thought process to win games is "boring and stale". Have you ever played chess? 

A card game is something that's going to be changed and shall evolve. It's not a static game like chess. You cannot expect a nonstatic game to be 100% well designed.

That's what they would be based on what we have now. However, as you and many others have stated, one of the big features that determines how bad a card is for the game is how much it limits future card design. Between Rulers and Chaos Dragons, basically any Dragon printed from now on is asking to be abused. And comparing them to the baby Dragons is an exercise in stating the obvious.

It doesn't limit any design at 2, though. The only thing limiting the design of future dragons is Dragon Shrine.

I know it's obvous, but it's an example of varying degrees of bad design. Another example of it is Malicious @3 vs. Malicious @2. The latter's not perfect design, but it's definitely fine as a one per duel (more or less) float. The former, however, is degnerate as fuck.

[heraldry_lord]

I know it's obvous, but it's an example of varying degrees of bad design. Another example of it is Malicious @3 vs. Malicious @2. The latter's not perfect design, but it's definitely fine as a one per duel (more or less) float. The former, however, is degnerate as fuck.

 

The problem is that the game is rife with cards like Malicious and Machu Mech.  On the other end of the spectrum, it's rife with cards like Goblin out of the Frying Pan. 

[玄魔の王]

A card game is something that's going to be changed and shall evolve. It's not a static game like chess. You cannot expect a nonstatic game to be 100% well designed.

I can reasonably expect a nonstatic game to encourage strategy and on-the-fly decision making. The game at this point in time is anything but.

It doesn't limit any design at 2, though. The only thing limiting the design of future dragons is Dragon Shrine.

Explain to me how being able to search any Dragon in the game, at will, is in any way okay? We've gotten so use to being able to search into what we want on command a lot of us have forgotten the days before searching effects really existed beyond Sangan. Y'know, when people had to play the hand they were dealt.

I know it's obvous, but it's an example of varying degrees of bad design. Another example of it is Malicious @3 vs. Malicious @2. The latter's not perfect design, but it's definitely fine as a one per duel (more or less) float. The former, however, is degnerate as fuck.

So remind me again why Malicious went back to 3? Because as far as I'm concerned he should have stayed in his semi-usable state. Same with Black Whirlwind.

[Blake]

I can reasonably expect a nonstatic game to encourage strategy and on-the-fly decision making. The game at this point in time is anything but.

Have you even played this game recently? Dragon Ruler mirrors have always, always pushed on the fly decision makign and strategy. A lot more than previous formats to be sure.

Explain to me how being able to search any Dragon in the game, at will, is in any way okay? We've gotten so use to being able to search into what we want on command a lot of us have forgotten the days before searching effects really existed beyond Sangan. Y'know, when people had to play the hand they were dealt.

"At will" meaning twice per duel if they're semi'd. Where you permanently burn a resource to do so. I'd rather more searching in a game that just plain "I drew better gg".

So remind me again why Malicious went back to 3? Because as far as I'm concerned he should have stayed in his semi-usable state. Same with Black Whirlwind.

the TCG banlist did a lot for the players and what they wanted. So they did it for the players who thought they couldn't harm the gamestate. Not changes I agree with, but still has a reason.