#YesAllWomen

[Agro]

Kind of surprised there's not already a thread on at least the killing.

 

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-isla-vista-women-20140525-story.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/27/us/campus-killings-set-off-anguished-conversation-about-the-treatment-of-women.html?_r=1

 

We need to talk about this, because the misogynistic, dismissive, and entitled responses to this hashtag are disgusting and just the kind of societal hegemony that influenced the killer in the first place.

 

This isn't some ridiculous idea of feminism crying for attention by hijacking a serious incident. This is ordinary women relating the kinds of harassment they get EVERY DAY, with this incident not only completely relating to their experiences, but being what they fear the absolute most.

 

This is not a men vs women problem. Rape culture is something that affects both men and women. It makes men feel they are entitled to sex. As if women are only there as their sexual conquests. It makes men gain the mindset that objectification is the best measuring stick we have to our own self worth. This is as destructive to men as it is extremely dangerous to women.

 

The killer in this case killed not only women for not wanting him sexually, he killed men, which he labeled his "enemies" because women liked them more than him. In a manifesto he posted on YouTube before he killed 6 others and himself, he said he'd get his revenge on all of them, and show them who was the real alpha male.

 

Note, that this hashtag is not blaming men. This is blaming a societal viewpoint that would allow something as dumb as this to exist. Because it's

harmful

to

EVERYONE.

 

I suggest all of you take the time to read through some of the tweets from this hashtag.

 

I'm sorry for ranting, I'm just really pissed at the response to this hashtag. It's really disgusting...

[Lunar Origins]

This is truly just... well, unbelievable.  To think someone would defend a MURDERER - not just of women, but of everyone - is outright disgusting and despicable.

[Agro]

This is truly just... well, unbelievable.  To think someone would defend a MURDERER - not just of women, but of everyone - is outright disgusting and despicable.

To be fair, no one is defending the murderer.

 

The negative response has been that this misogyny and entitlement were not involved in the killing. That "dumb feminists" are hijacking a sad and unrelated story in an attempt to get attention. They're essentially proving the point. He's being labeled as a psychopath due to mental illness. Rather than a monster created by a dangerous ideology.

[Goose]

Feminism is needed because men get the short end of the stick once the law starts to be applied.  Men who report their partner for domestic abuse have like a 40% chance of themselves being arrested.  So many people don't believe a woman can rape a man.  Men falsely accused of rape have their lives ruined even if they are declared innocent because of shitty privacy laws, horrible media, and lazy citizens.  

 

OP says men feel entitled to sex.  OP is part of this shitty culture.  Men think they are entitled to sex, yes.  But more over PEOPLE think they are entitled to sex.  By emphasizing the men part, you are not only misleading anyone reading, you are also emphasizing the difference between men and women and making it seem like men acting like beasts is normal.  So even when you posted this, you worked against yourself.

[Tentacruel]

What does that hashtag even mean exactly? 
 
Anyway, I have a slight problem with this.   I did go read a bunch of tweets with that hashtag.  WAY more finger-pointing towards men than responses from sexist men.
 
This guy obviously had some problems.  He was a self-entitled twat.  Yes, he didn't respect women.  But people are making this about men, not rape, but men.  "Rape culture" is unfair to women, yes.  If you say no, you're a prude, if you say yes, you're a slut, and so on.
 
But if you're a man, you're a loser if you don't get any.  And it's not like women don't propagate that s*** too.
 
There's a growing trend in the idea that any man can be a rapist.  Women shouldn't have to apologize for being raped, but men shouldn't have to apologize for a crime they didn't commit "yet."  
 
A common thing I saw on twitter is that men always make it about them by saying "not all men."  This kind of reaction made it about men.  It's never "rapist" or "rapists," it's always man or men.  
 
And of course if you're not a feminist, you're a rapist. 
 
EDIT:
 
Perfect example.
 
"Guys, please follow the #YesAllWomen hashtag. Read. Learn. Feel sickened. And more importantly, feel responsible."
 
Feel responsible? Yes, this hashtag is f***ing blaming men, quite explicitly.
 
 
Women tend to complain about having to teach their daughters to beware rape and that men should have teach their sons not to rape people. Do we say, "I shouldn't have to tell my kid not to get in the white van that says free candy on it, you should tell your kid not become a child predator!"


Edit again with more thoughts:

More men were killed than women.
Some of those were asian, and the killer revealed himself to be a racist. No one's talking about that.
He WAS mentally ill and off his meds.  

 

 

We cannot find a solution with all this finger pointing.  Rape is bad, kay?  Let's all say it together. 

 

Edit: And one more edit for a final thought.  What bothers me is that the reaction is painting this guy as a typical man.  A typical misogynist.  He was, as I said, a twat.  He thought he deserved the world.  That included women.  He didn't respect women, but he didn't respect anyone.  This really isn't a typical case of rape culture. 

[Night]

From what I've seen there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding this topic.

 

The cause? Society. 

 

What was originally a story about a disturbed kid became the platform for some bullshit anti-rape-but-only-for-females twitter campaign and then somehow ended up as a full-blown feud between men and women over who should be entitled to bitch about something over twitter.

 

Really? Is that what we've devolved into? 

 

What the fuck happened to conceiving our own thoughts on a matter and being content with that? Why do we feel the need to shove our personal ideals down everyone's throats? 

 

At what point does the initial principle become misconstrued with all of the others and inevitably dwindle from what was originally genuine into absolutely nothing.   

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

As a guy who was sexually molested by his ex, I say that it sickens me to think people are using any kind of excuse to make rape seem like an okay response ever. Both men and women are guilty of this. And pointing fingers at one gender or another is foolish.

I'll admit for a time I distrusted all women, but I realize that it's only some people who do this kind of horrible stuff. But it is both genders. Once we even allude that one gender has it worse we're wrong. No matter the statistics rape is disgusting and heinous no matter who the victim is.

Simple as this. Don't do bad things to other people.

[cr47t]

From what I can tell, this is just... an example of dangerous society activity, and the terrible results that come with it. I don't really have more to say.

 

EDIT: Now I do but I don't think I should put it all into this one edit.

[BehindTheMask]

The negative response has been that this misogyny and entitlement were not involved in the killing. That "dumb feminists" are hijacking a sad and unrelated story in an attempt to get attention. They're essentially proving the point. He's being labeled as a psychopath due to mental illness. Rather than a monster created by a dangerous ideology.

 

To be fair, he does have Asperger's Syndrome. Not to solely push blame on his mental state, but to say that he is a psychopath because of only one aspect of his life is misleading. More to come later in my post.

 

OP says men feel entitled to sex.  OP is part of this shitty culture.  Men think they are entitled to sex, yes.  But more over PEOPLE think they are entitled to sex.  By emphasizing the men part, you are not only misleading anyone reading, you are also emphasizing the difference between men and women and making it seem like men acting like beasts is normal.  So even when you posted this, you worked against yourself.

 

Good points, equality is something that is needed overall. However, the statement "men feel entitled to sex" isn't lessened because most people feel "entitled to sex."  There is no circumstance in which any one person is entitled to sex, yes, but I'm willing to bet a majority of those who feel that they are (wrongfully) entitled to sex are men. Rape Culture breeds the type of thinking that, for example, buying a someone drinks and acting friendly is a free pass to their pants. A societal norm is that men buy women drinks to break the ice, and not the other way around. Men, by and large, are seen as the "pursuers" of sex due to culture. Although it is wrong to say "only men are entitled to sex" it isnt completely wrong to say that "men feel like they are entitled to sex". The best work around would be to say "There is a believe that people feel like they are entitled to sex."

 

What does that hashtag even mean exactly? 
 
Anyway, I have a slight problem with this.   I did go read a bunch of tweets with that hashtag.  WAY more finger-pointing towards men than responses from sexist men.
 
This guy obviously had some problems.  He was a self-entitled twat.  Yes, he didn't respect women.  But people are making this about men, not rape, but men.  "Rape culture" is unfair to women, yes.  If you say no, you're a prude, if you say yes, you're a slut, and so on.
 
But if you're a man, you're a loser if you don't get any.  And it's not like women don't propagate that s*** too.
 
There's a growing trend in the idea that any man can be a rapist.  Women shouldn't have to apologize for being raped, but men shouldn't have to apologize for a crime they didn't commit "yet."  
 
A common thing I saw on twitter is that men always make it about them by saying "not all men."  This kind of reaction made it about men.  It's never "rapist" or "rapists," it's always man or men.  
 
And of course if you're not a feminist, you're a rapist. 
 
EDIT:
 
Perfect example.
 
"Guys, please follow the #YesAllWomen hashtag. Read. Learn. Feel sickened. And more importantly, feel responsible."
 
Feel responsible? Yes, this hashtag is f***ing blaming men, quite explicitly.
 
 
Women tend to complain about having to teach their daughters to beware rape and that men should have teach their sons not to rape people. Do we say, "I shouldn't have to tell my kid not to get in the white van that says free candy on it, you should tell your kid not become a child predator!"


Edit again with more thoughts:

More men were killed than women.
Some of those were asian, and the killer revealed himself to be a racist. No one's talking about that.
He WAS mentally ill and off his meds.  

 

 

We cannot find a solution with all this finger pointing.  Rape is bad, kay?  Let's all say it together. 

 

Edit: And one more edit for a final thought.  What bothers me is that the reaction is painting this guy as a typical man.  A typical misogynist.  He was, as I said, a twat.  He thought he deserved the world.  That included women.  He didn't respect women, but he didn't respect anyone.  This really isn't a typical case of rape culture. 

 

1) A vocal majority of feminists on twitter/tumblr are misandrists, as well as being feminist. Don't let the vocal majority ruin the point that this was partially fueled by rape culture. While you are right in saying "men shouldnt have to apologize for a crime they didn't commit 'yet'", it is also fair to say that the majority of victims of rape crimes are women.

• 1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. Among all victims, about nine out of ten are female.
• 1 out of every 33 American men has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in his lifetime.
• At least 10% of all victims are male.

Taken from: http://www.rccmsc.org/resources/get-the-facts.aspx

 

2) One of the goals of feminism is to reduce rape culture. While parents should teach their children to avoid dangerous situations, such as "Dont take candy from a stranger", and women should be aware of dangerous situations, such as going into the bad parts of neighboorhoods, there also is call to action to educate men of rape culture. By educating men(and women too), they want to remove the parts of society that S****-shame, that emasculate men for not getting any,

 

3) You're right in saying that the guy had more than one problem. However, the alleged killer had made a manifesto, in which he states misogynistic things multiple times.

 

[spoiler=Manifesto quotes]

 

Taken from: http://nypost.com/2014/05/25/the-twisted-hate-filled-manifesto-of-calif-gunman-elliot-rodger/

 

“Women should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with,’’ he fumed in the tome. “That decision should made for them by rational men of intelligence. If women continue to have rights, they will only hinder the advancement of the human race by breeding with degenerate men and creating stupid, degenerate offspring.

“Women are like a plague,’’ Rodger wrote. “They don’t deserve to have any rights . . . Women are vicious, evil, barbaric animals, and they need to be treated as such.

“In an ideal world, sexuality . . . must be outlawed. In a world without sex, humanity will be pure and civilized. Men will grow up healthily, without having to worry about such a barbaric act. . . . In order to completely abolish sex, women themselves would have to be abolished.[/spoiler]

 

From what I've seen there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding this topic.

 

The cause? Society. 

 

What was originally a story about a disturbed kid became the platform for some bullshit anti-rape-but-only-for-females twitter campaign and then somehow ended up as a full-blown feud between men and women over who should be entitled to b**** about something over twitter.

 

Really? Is that what we've devolved into? 

 

What the f*** happened to conceiving our own thoughts on a matter and being content with that? Why do we feel the need to shove our personal ideals down everyone's throats? 

 

At what point does the initial principle become misconstrued with all of the others and inevitably dwindle from what was originally genuine into absolutely nothing.   

 

There is a lot of confusion because there is no clear cut answer as to why the guy was crazy. To say that "Society" is the cause is a cop-out to what actually is the problem. There are many contributing factors to why this guy did what he did, and the most notable one is his misogyny. There is nothing "bull" about anti-rape, even though it was wrong to be females only. Also, the Internet tends to take things and blow them out of proportion.

 

If you want a full, thought out response to something, the a majority of the internet is a terrible place to go. Internet arguments are rarely decided by facts, and the more vocal you are, the better the "argument." Places like Tumblr and Reddit, and others too, serve as an echo chamber for a person's beliefs. They follow/reblog/blog arguments and surround themselves with like minded people. This makes them seem right, because "no one" is arguing with them.

 

In response to "What the f*** happened to conceiving our own thoughts on a matter and being content with that? Why do we feel the need to shove our personal ideals down everyone's throats? "

o

Its not good to say that either, because I can hold a believe "water is made out of 1 part hydrogen and 9 parts oxygen." If I stated that, I would hope someone would correct me. This becomes less concrete as facts turn into opinions, but the point remains that people have a right to give and receive opinions on topic, even if they are wrong(because even some "opinions" can be wrong.

 

 

As for my beliefs on this matter, I think that there are a multiple of relevant factors which caused Elliot Rodgers to due what he did. Giving full blame to any one cause is irresponsible. Rape culture, feminism and other serious topics are not solved with simple solutions, and require many, long and arduous actions to be taken. To talk about them on YCM is to further muddle the issue.

[Tentacruel]

Well as for the cause, or what to blame, there's really only one thing to blame, and that's Rodgers.   

[Agro]

Yes, but it's important to realize that Rodgers did not become a monster in a vacuum.

And just because I really need to address this:

More men were killed than women.

I see this a lot, but it's kind of ignoring that his manifesto clearly stated that he was going to kill the men because the women chose them over him.

As to BehindTheMask, first off, I love you. But Asperger's is much more of a scapegoat. I mean, unless you're telling me I'm a murderer ^^
 
To quote a friend of mine who's much better at arguing on this issue:
"The stigmatization of the mentally ill (utilized to excuse acts of terrorism or mass murder to dismiss the danger of violent ideologies that media consumers may unfortunately share) is perhaps THE most violent double standard in the country. Being mentally ill with depression or dissociative disorders or other personality disorders is stigmatized as "being unhealthy to be around" and "dangerous," so people ignore their mental illness and become unhealthy to the point of potential danger.

REGARDLESS of mental illness, even if he had a mental illness which increased violent behavior, he was maintaining stability until some time after he became involved in a hateful ideological movement [The Men's Right's Activists, Pick-Up Artists, and Red Pill group] and was charged by their rhetoric. The ideology itself is pretty obviously prejudicial and often hateful."

That's not to say he had something wrong, but it does get kind of annoying looking at something like this which I would, very honestly, call terrorism, and we immediately assume he's mentally unstable. The reasons we assume that, idk, but as someone with Asperger's, it's frightening to have the term constantly associated with murder, massacre, and being mentally ill.

[Tentacruel]

Oh, it was Asperger's?   That doesn't exactly make people violent. 
 
Like at all.
 

Anyway, you keep mentioning the phrase dangerous or hateful ideologies.  I don't feel it's fair to compare what is, as you said, pretty much a terrorist, to the general public.   When that one woman cut her husband's dick off, is it fair to blame "dangerous" feminist propaganda?  I've heard women, and not necessarily staunch feminists, say "He probably deserved it," completely dismissively.  Is that because radical feminism is brainwashing people?
 
The backlash to this incident is very accusatory.  Nobody is defending this guy, and nobody is defending his belief that he's superior to everyone else and that all women should literately die.  Comparing someone that literately hated women to the point of wanting to eradicate them to people who harass women at the bar is not productive.  
 
Who are all these tweets aimed at?  The f***er's dead.  What is the point?  To "educate men," is the most common reason I see given.  Women don't want to be raped?  Gee, I wouldn't have guessed.  Next you're going to tell me they don't want to be murdered.  
 
 
Here, I'm just going to paste tweets in order, not cherry pick them.  Starting from the top of the page. 
 
"Guys, that feeling you got from #yesallwomen that caused you to defensively use #notallmen? That's called "shame". Now try "responsibility""
 
""Because even a dog can learn the meaning of the word "no" but some grown men can't" #YesAllWomen"
 
"hey girl im max how you doin #yesallwomen"  <-  This guy... >.>  What...
 
"#YesAllWomen b/c sexuality, entitlement & consent r part of a convo we need to have w our daughters AND our sons"  < - Hey, something actually insightful. 
 
"'I have a boyfriend' is the easiest way to get a man to leave you alone. Because he respects another man more than you. #yesallwomen"
 
"Because I've both given & received the "I'm afraid your ex-boyfriend will kill you" talk #yesallwomen"
 
"Because a woman shouldn't have to feel any less safe walking home alone at night than a man. #YesAllWomen"
 
"#YesAllWomen bc‘I have a boyfriend’ more effective than ‘I’m not interested’-men respect other men more than my right 2say no"- @NewYorker"

 

Frankly I just don't understand what it's getting at.  What do you want me to do?  Stop raping and murdering women? 

 

Oh wait, I never did that to begin with.  That first one.  Responsibility?  For murderers because they share my gender?

 

Sorry, but I really can't help you.  There's nothing I can do.  

[JadenxAtemYAOI]

Oh, it was Asperger's?   That doesn't exactly make people violent. 
 
Like at all.
 

Anyway, you keep mentioning the phrase dangerous or hateful ideologies.  I don't feel it's fair to compare what is, as you said, pretty much a terrorist, to the general public.   When that one woman cut her husband's dick off, is it fair to blame "dangerous" feminist propaganda?  I've heard women, and not necessarily staunch feminists, say "He probably deserved it," completely dismissively.  Is that because radical feminism is brainwashing people?
 
The backlash to this incident is very accusatory.  Nobody is defending this guy, and nobody is defending his belief that he's superior to everyone else and that all women should literately die.  Comparing someone that literately hated women to the point of wanting to eradicate them to people who harass women at the bar is not productive.  
 
Who are all these tweets aimed at?  The f***er's dead.  What is the point?  To "educate men," is the most common reason I see given.  Women don't want to be raped?  Gee, I wouldn't have guessed.  Next you're going to tell me they don't want to be murdered.  
 
 
Here, I'm just going to paste tweets in order, not cherry pick them.  Starting from the top of the page. 
 
"Guys, that feeling you got from #yesallwomen that caused you to defensively use #notallmen? That's called "shame". Now try "responsibility""
 
""Because even a dog can learn the meaning of the word "no" but some grown men can't" #YesAllWomen"
 
"hey girl im max how you doin #yesallwomen"  <-  This guy... >.>  What...
 
"#YesAllWomen b/c sexuality, entitlement & consent r part of a convo we need to have w our daughters AND our sons"  < - Hey, something actually insightful. 
 
"'I have a boyfriend' is the easiest way to get a man to leave you alone. Because he respects another man more than you. #yesallwomen"
 
"Because I've both given & received the "I'm afraid your ex-boyfriend will kill you" talk #yesallwomen"
 
"Because a woman shouldn't have to feel any less safe walking home alone at night than a man. #YesAllWomen"
 
"#YesAllWomen bc‘I have a boyfriend’ more effective than ‘I’m not interested’-men respect other men more than my right 2say no"- @NewYorker"

 

Frankly I just don't understand what it's getting at.  What do you want me to do?  Stop raping and murdering women? 

 

Oh wait, I never did that to begin with.  That first one.  Responsibility?  For murderers because they share my gender?

 

Sorry, but I really can't help you.  There's nothing I can do.  

Aspergers won't make you violent. If it does, then I'm surprised the many I'm friends with don't bust each other's heads in. 

As for the topic at hand. Being a victim myself it's difficult for women to speak up about. Recently, one of my friends regained contact with me and he had been sexually abused by a woman he was dating for two years. Got away eventually but the fact of the matter is abuse, assault, and everything else in-between. It isn't gender specific. Unfortunately, men have it even harder than women do. I may not be a man but it doesn't take a few seconds to realize what standards society has held men up to over the years. They're expected to dominant, in control, in the lead, and not an emotional person overall. Rape culture however is a very sad thing to think about because in reality it has become a social norm. This would probably just be my perspective but I blame both genders. Women lie about rape. Women don;t come forth with it when it really happens either. This in turn makes men a bit more disinclined to believe such a thing but when it does it's pretty much "Oh, you got raped by that guy too? He's got quite a problem."

 

Rape culture right now won't end anytime soon. If and I'm honestly looking at our nice guys here. If you're talking to a girl that has been abused and assaulted. You need to be there for her as a friend unless you're dating and she got caught up somewhere else and it wasn't you. Support her, build up her self-esteem, and most of all. Ensure her that everything will be okay and that you will be there to make things better and help her come forth with what happened. Even IF you don't have his remains inside you, the amount of psychological harm will still be there and any trained therapist that oversees such mental damage will know when you're faking and when you're not.

As for you guys and how it should go about for helping you. Genders feel differently. I don't know how a guy thinks or feels and even then it varies on the person so I can't really say anything.  

[Lunar Origins]

Sigh.

 

Any generalization is wrong.

 

I have a lot to say on this issue, but I don't exactly know which words to pick and choose; that's okay, I guess.  No one can judge an entire gender on the actions of one insane individual.  To claim that really makes you just as bad as the people defending this heinous act.  Like it or not, we're all in this together, and if we, as a society, can learn this, then that's probably the only way we're going to make any sort of progress.

 

This is why we need to educate people on the many facets of sexuality and consent; you don't deserve a girlfriend, and you don't deserve a boyfriend.  Likewise, no one deserves you.  It is your body, and those are their bodies.  You're only able to touch them if they give you permission.  Historically, this has really been ignored; women all over the world are treated as objects and symbols of sex; this is partly due to pop culture, but mostly rooted in history.

 

So we need to teach people that this is wrong, that people can make their own choices.  Yes, Rodgers was insane and killed a lot of people;  whether or not they were men or women are irrelevant, but his reasons for doing so are not.

 

Rape culture is bad.  I don't think there's any more I can say on that subject.  It's horrifying.

[cr47t]

Just now noticed the part about him saying he would show them "whose the real alpha male"

 

Oh no, here we go again.

 

@Poison "The subject is horrifying"

This action, not only the killing but everything else "which idk about but Im sure its bad" really is bad.

 

[Just Crouton]

Someone on Tumblr drew these in response to these events.

 

http://rasenth.tumblr.com/post/86791553337/i-felt-so-angry-at-the-ucsb-massacre-an-article

 

Made more sense to me, than...everything else said about the subject.

[Tentacruel]

Someone on Tumblr drew these in response to these events.

 

http://rasenth.tumblr.com/post/86791553337/i-felt-so-angry-at-the-ucsb-massacre-an-article

 

Made more sense to me, than...everything else said about the subject.

The situations in that cartoon definitely happen, and sure, it's a problem, but the essence of it what that person is saying is:

 

"It's always the man's fault, stop blaming women."

 

We need to stop antagonizing women for being victims of assault, but we also need to stop victimizing women for EVERYTHING.

 

That actress from Twilight, she slept with that one direct and cheated or whatever.  It's really their business, but I digress.  People made her out to be a victim who was taken advantage of by a creepy old man who manipulated her.

 

I mean, hell, I agree with the base of what is being said.  People need to be treated with respect.  I think most people would agree with that.  But people are propagating an imaginary world where EVERYONE is a raging misogynist.  

 

Just because a person says one thing, (like women who are sexually active are whores)  and another person says another thing (like women who aren't are prudes), doesn't mean that every single person on earth thinks both of those things.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

James Joyce called "yes" "the feminine word", and in the final chapter of his epic poem Ulysses there's a lengthy soliloquy that not only includes ninety iterations of the word "yes" but begins and ends with the word as well. I would be interested to know whether #yesallwomen drew influence from this or whether it just struck the same chord. [url=http://poetry.rapgenius.com/James-joyce-ulysses-chap-18-penelope-annotated] The chapter can be found here.[/url]

 

For someone accustomed to being treated as nothing or worse, following the script dictated to them is the only means of maintaining an identity. I would sooner die than kill or rape, but if I hadn't been provided with causes to feel that way, I could imagine how someone with a sense of loss of control might feel differently. No child resolves to become a killer, a rapist, or a prisoner, and to many the question is prompted seldom enough as to be out of the question. Others aren't as lucky. Certain levels of desperation can't be communicated and it's this desperation that perpetuates itself and leads to the types of crimes we would never commit. 

 

This thread is reductive of an issue much broader than "rape culture" and only adds insult to incurable injuries that have existed since the dawn of humanity and will continue to exist for a very long time.

[Agro]

The situations in that cartoon definitely happen, and sure, it's a problem, but the essence of it what that person is saying is:
 
"It's always the man's fault, stop blaming women."
 
We need to stop antagonizing women for being victims of assault, but we also need to stop victimizing women for EVERYTHING.
 
That actress from Twilight, she slept with that one direct and cheated or whatever.  It's really their business, but I digress.  People made her out to be a victim who was taken advantage of by a creepy old man who manipulated her.
 
I mean, hell, I agree with the base of what is being said.  People need to be treated with respect.  I think most people would agree with that.  But people are propagating an imaginary world where EVERYONE is a raging misogynist.  
 
Just because a person says one thing, (like women who are sexually active are whores)  and another person says another thing (like women who aren't are prudes), doesn't mean that every single person on earth thinks both of those things.

You do understand that this hashtag was created as a follow up to the #notallmen one, right? The one about how not all men harass and are misogynistic to women?

And not even to counter it, just to build off it. Because the real point of the hashtag is to say that while not all men harass women, most if not all women have been harassed in some way.

And as to your conclusion that that comic is saying that "it's always the man's fault," how do you even come to that conclusion? The comic uses "we" regularly, clearly calling out EVERYONE for perpetuating the hegemony. The comic even has a point where women are the ones perpetuating the societal norm. The comic is pointing out how WE (men and women) view gender relations, even if it is not how things are, or as they should be. It is in no way saying that it's only men's fault, and to stop blaming women. It's clearly calling everyone out for perpetuating a hegemony that affects the way we believe men should act, and the way we believe women should act.

[Tentacruel]

You do understand that this hashtag was created as a follow up to the #notallmen one, right? The one about how not all men harass and are misogynistic to women?

And not even to counter it, just to build off it. Because the real point of the hashtag is to say that while not all men harass women, most if not all women have been harassed in some way.

And as to your conclusion that that comic is saying that "it's always the man's fault," how do you even come to that conclusion? The comic uses "we" regularly, clearly calling out EVERYONE for perpetuating the hegemony. The comic even has a point where women are the ones perpetuating the societal norm. The comic is pointing out how WE (men and women) view gender relations, even if it is not how things are, or as they should be. It is in no way saying that it's only men's fault, and to stop blaming women. It's clearly calling everyone out for perpetuating a hegemony that affects the way we believe men should act, and the way we believe women should act.

Oh, no no.  What I mean, is that the comic suggests that the situation of a man flirting with a woman and the woman rejecting him peacefully does not happen often, and that it's "usually" a man forcing himself on her.
 
Yeah, forcing yourself on a woman is wrong.  It's is a problem.  But when I'm accused of being part of the problem with little to no explanation, I really can't help.  People are demanding that "all" (and the word all does come up) men take responsibility. 

The fact that this level of outrage came from people saying that not all men were rapists shows that the blame is indeed being shifted to all men.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who are just trying to build off of it, but there are also plenty of people outright stating that the "not all men," claim is, and I quote, "bullshit".

 

A comparison was made to biscuits.  There are 15 biscuits and 5 of them are laced with cyanide.  Pick one and eat it, because "not all of them are poisoned."  

[BehindTheMask]

Yes, but it's important to realize that Rodgers did not become a monster in a vacuum.

And just because I really need to address this:
I see this a lot, but it's kind of ignoring that his manifesto clearly stated that he was going to kill the men because the women chose them over him.

As to BehindTheMask, first off, I love you. But Asperger's is much more of a scapegoat. I mean, unless you're telling me I'm a murderer ^^
 
To quote a friend of mine who's much better at arguing on this issue:
"The stigmatization of the mentally ill (utilized to excuse acts of terrorism or mass murder to dismiss the danger of violent ideologies that media consumers may unfortunately share) is perhaps THE most violent double standard in the country. Being mentally ill with depression or dissociative disorders or other personality disorders is stigmatized as "being unhealthy to be around" and "dangerous," so people ignore their mental illness and become unhealthy to the point of potential danger.

REGARDLESS of mental illness, even if he had a mental illness which increased violent behavior, he was maintaining stability until some time after he became involved in a hateful ideological movement [The Men's Right's Activists, Pick-Up Artists, and Red Pill group] and was charged by their rhetoric. The ideology itself is pretty obviously prejudicial and often hateful."

That's not to say he had something wrong, but it does get kind of annoying looking at something like this which I would, very honestly, call terrorism, and we immediately assume he's mentally unstable. The reasons we assume that, idk, but as someone with Asperger's, it's frightening to have the term constantly associated with murder, massacre, and being mentally ill.

 

First off: Love u too babe

 

Secondly, I was merely suggesting that his mental health state was a contributing factor. I didnt mean to say that because of his Aspergers he was a lunatic. Its more that on top of everything he was experiencing, his Aspergers might have contributed. Im not an expert on the subject, but if I remember correctly, those with Aspergers have trouble connecting to people. This is why I mentioned it, because it seems like part of the cause of meltdown. I didnt mean to imply that Aspergers causes people to become murderers. My fault.

Oh, it was Asperger's?   That doesn't exactly make people violent. 
 
Like at all.
 

Anyway, you keep mentioning the phrase dangerous or hateful ideologies.  I don't feel it's fair to compare what is, as you said, pretty much a terrorist, to the general public.   When that one woman cut her husband's dick off, is it fair to blame "dangerous" feminist propaganda?  I've heard women, and not necessarily staunch feminists, say "He probably deserved it," completely dismissively.  Is that because radical feminism is brainwashing people?
 
The backlash to this incident is very accusatory.  Nobody is defending this guy, and nobody is defending his belief that he's superior to everyone else and that all women should literately die.  Comparing someone that literately hated women to the point of wanting to eradicate them to people who harass women at the bar is not productive.  
 
Who are all these tweets aimed at?  The f***er's dead.  What is the point?  To "educate men," is the most common reason I see given.  Women don't want to be raped?  Gee, I wouldn't have guessed.  Next you're going to tell me they don't want to be murdered.  
 
 
Here, I'm just going to paste tweets in order, not cherry pick them.  Starting from the top of the page. 
 
"Guys, that feeling you got from #yesallwomen that caused you to defensively use #notallmen? That's called "shame". Now try "responsibility""
 
""Because even a dog can learn the meaning of the word "no" but some grown men can't" #YesAllWomen"
 
"hey girl im max how you doin #yesallwomen"  <-  This guy... >.>  What...
 
"#YesAllWomen b/c sexuality, entitlement & consent r part of a convo we need to have w our daughters AND our sons"  < - Hey, something actually insightful. 
 
"'I have a boyfriend' is the easiest way to get a man to leave you alone. Because he respects another man more than you. #yesallwomen"
 
"Because I've both given & received the "I'm afraid your ex-boyfriend will kill you" talk #yesallwomen"
 
"Because a woman shouldn't have to feel any less safe walking home alone at night than a man. #YesAllWomen"
 
"#YesAllWomen bc‘I have a boyfriend’ more effective than ‘I’m not interested’-men respect other men more than my right 2say no"- @NewYorker"

 

Frankly I just don't understand what it's getting at.  What do you want me to do?  Stop raping and murdering women? 

 

Oh wait, I never did that to begin with.  That first one.  Responsibility?  For murderers because they share my gender?

 

Sorry, but I really can't help you.  There's nothing I can do.  

 

The problem with social media is that there are often vocal minorities who misrepresent their cause(s). For example, in the feminist movement, a majority of feminists I personally know do not use Tumblr, and see it as a detriment to feminism. It causes a misrepresentation of their views and hurts the cause. Its hard to fight for equality when the person on your left is screaming "F-word men, those s-word lords are f-word idiots. F the patriachy." By being associated(through a common ideology), you also seem just as crazy/extremist. Another example is muslims, as well as athiests. These two groups also get misrepresented based off of their vocal minority.

 

The whole point of these movements(in my eyes) is to start and maintain a conversation about social views on masculinity and feminity, as well as women's rights. I'll admit I was once held a lot of terrible view points, and after realizing how toxic they are I've come to better understand what women are going through. I'm not perfect, and I'm not trying to seem like I'm better than anyone, but there are a lot of toxic ideas that are casually being tossed around - i.e. Cool story babe, now make me a sandwich. While that seems like a joke to most people, there are actually people who believe that to be a valid opinion. When we make light of that, it actually sets us back.

 

Oh, no no.  What I mean, is that the comic suggests that the situation of a man flirting with a woman and the woman rejecting him peacefully does not happen often, and that it's "usually" a man forcing himself on her.
 
Yeah, forcing yourself on a woman is wrong.  It's is a problem.  But when I'm accused of being part of the problem with little to no explanation, I really can't help.  People are demanding that "all" (and the word all does come up) men take responsibility. 

The fact that this level of outrage came from people saying that not all men were rapists shows that the blame is indeed being shifted to all men.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who are just trying to build off of it, but there are also plenty of people outright stating that the "not all men," claim is, and I quote, "bullshit".

 

A comparison was made to biscuits.  There are 15 biscuits and 5 of them are laced with cyanide.  Pick one and eat it, because "not all of them are poisoned."  

 

I'll reiterate what I've said before, a lot of the things you hear on social media are due to the vocal minority. Most feminists dont actively blame all men, but something to consider is that equality for both sexes starts with both sides coming to the table so to speak. By creating this social dialog, the aim is to educate people(both men and women), and to try to eradicate some of the hateful ideologies that are seen as the norm. A good piece of advice is to ignore most of the Tumblr feminists, and try to be a part of the healthy social conversation. And I agree with you, finger pointing is terrible for everyone involved.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

 

1) A vocal majority of feminists on twitter/tumblr are misandrists, as well as being feminist. Don't let the vocal majority ruin the point that this was partially fueled by rape culture. While you are right in saying "men shouldnt have to apologize for a crime they didn't commit 'yet'", it is also fair to say that the majority of victims of rape crimes are women.

• 
  
• 
  
  1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. Among all victims, about nine out of ten are female.
• 
  
• 
  
  1 out of every 33 American men has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in his lifetime.
• 
  
• 
  
  At least 10% of all victims are male.
• 
  

Taken from: http://www.rccmsc.or...-the-facts.aspx

 

 

Although I don't doubt that significantly more women are raped than men in America, I would think that the FBI's biased as it has reason to underrepresent prison rape given how much it benefits from the prison-industrial complex. My suspicions aside, men are about three times more likely to be murdered than women (I don't like my source any more than yours, but at least it's on roughly level ground for the sake of argument), and although that reflects a smaller ratio than your statistics I'll take a liberty in saying murder is a worse crime than rape as is reflected in sentencing (not that I like that either). 

 

 

 

finger pointing is terrible for everyone involved.

 

Your avatar! :P But in all seriousness, you are pointing your finger at "most tumblr feminists". Not that I mind, I just don't see why a certain amount of finger pointing can't be fair/constructive provided it has the appropriate backing.