Unbanning cards becuase they can be countered : Debate

[Cyber Altair]

I am sick and tired of it now, many members now *not naming* are stating the broken cards such as Pot of Greed and many other cards should be unbanned because they can be countered. Kids here is a lesson, EVERY card out there in the game can be countered *points at DAD* ya even you, but just because a card can be countered doesn't mean that they shouldn't be banned.

 

If you are saying that they should be unbanned then this is what will happen, no. no second choice.

Either we would have the game broken into, throw the dice get the highest number then go home, cause you will get a FTK anyway. that is most likely to happen, and people will run Rescue Cat OTK, Yata-Lock or something along the line.

 

Just because you are saying that the cards should be unbanned because they can be countered doesn't mean that people will be able to do so, then people will put about 650 cards in their deck just to counter every possible card that the game wont be concentrating on skills but more on countering.

 

Next time you say you want to get rid of the banlist just remember that the game will no longer depend on skills but on whether i will throw the die and get a 6 or a 5 and then pwn my opponent with a FTK.

 

And please, please for the love of god kids, don't use Konami's banlist as a method to back your points because then you will be backing our points and also remember this is a debate so don't act childish please and Salty don't you dare and lock this.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Why would salty lock this? He agrees with it, IIRC.

[Cyber Altair]

just thought he would do so if it got out of control or something.

[tonisanoob]

yes i agree totally. "yhea lets unban raigeki because darkbribe exists". nah i dont think so.

[JesusofChaos™]

lol wait until masterofmagicians gets here

[MasterOfMagicians]

Actually I laughed when I read the title, and I laugh even more now that I read through it all. To think the three of you had to gang up and make a little thread because I irritated you that much, just so you all can talk to each other about a little discussion that stemmed from Pot of Greed...

.....

....

Sorry, still laughing.

 

Nah, I'm not going to say anything other than this post. The argument in the other discussion was stupid, funny at how irritated you all were getting, but stupid none-the-less. So, enjoy your little pow-wow together and rant and rave til you are blue in the faces with each other. I'm going to go wipe the tears from my eyes I can't stop laughing so hard.

[Exiro]

*Waits until MasterOfMagicians gets here

 

And btw, I agree.

 

EDIT:

Damn! Too late, he's already here.

Lol.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Actually I laughed when I read the title' date=' and I laugh even more now that I read through it all. To think the three of you had to gang up and make a little thread because I irritated you that much, just so you all can talk to each other about a little discussion that stemmed from Pot of Greed...

.....

....

Sorry, still laughing.

 

Nah, I'm not going to say anything other than this post. The argument in the other discussion was stupid, funny at how irritated you all were getting, but stupid none-the-less. So, enjoy your little pow-wow together and rant and rave til you are blue in the faces with each other. I'm going to go wipe the tears from my eyes I can't stop laughing so hard.

[/quote']

 

Really? I was under the impression that this was going on long before you decided that Pot deserved to make it off the list. But if you want to act conceited and believe that this topic was all about you, be my guest.

[b7hamma]

CAN'T.... STOMACH... THE.... IRONY!

 

*points to the Treeborn topic*

[ben7922]

Thank you CD for rant, this site needed it

*thumbs up*

[RedSceptile]

CAN'T.... STOMACH... THE.... IRONY!

 

*points to the Treeborn topic*

 

I know, the same people who said Frog wasn't bannable because of Crow/Macro Cosmos etc.

 

lol epic winnage.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

*remembers Treeborn Frog topic*

 

Classic.

[RiffMaster Alex]

So true. "Theyz should unbanz Black Luster Solier Envoy of the beginning becauszzz lightnin vortekx is a cardzzz". Face it people. Broken card is broken.

[Static]

Unfortunately for all of you, both Atem's banlist and Konami's ban list are failures. Why? Because ban lists for IRL SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW DIFFICULT A CARD IS TO GET, AND ON THE INTERNET, SHOULD NOT.

 

To people who say the ban list should not exist: Your wrong, we need to keep certain combos from breaking the game, especially on the internet where you can use any card that exists in the TCG/OCG and in real life where Yata-Garasu is a common, and CED-EOTE is a promo, and far too broken for how easy they are to get.

 

Konami's list: Considering how hard it is to get a Dark Armed Dragon, it is fair that it is not banned IRL, because if you pay that much money, you should be allowed to go to wins prizes and try to make more money than you spent. Yugioh is a market more than it is a game, and that is what the Ban list IRL should reflect. However, Konami's ban list fails on the internet when everyone can get any card they want.

 

Atem's List: The list would fail IRL, and would cause imminent market danger to UDE. (Though I strongly agree concerning Snipe, Frog, and RFTDD for both IRL and an interweb list) Even for the internet use, I question banning DDV and Norales, which, if anyone could deck (even IRL, still easy to get stuff) should be unlimited and limited respectively, especially if Phantom of Chaos is banned in Norales' case. And is the Atem list from that Atem the Pharoah guy from Pojo/YF/other YGO sites, because I may have traded with him once. xD

[Guest PikaPerson01]

Because ban lists for IRL SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW DIFFICULT A CARD IS TO GET

 

I stopped reading here. No they shouldn't.

 

Especially since there's YVD, playing with proxies, the videogames which use the IRL banlists, the spoiled brat down the street who runs a DAD deck and a Necroface deck, and... you know, the people who do get tournament level cards.

[CrabHelmet]

Unfortunately for all of you' date=' both Atem's banlist and Konami's ban list are failures. Why? Because ban lists for IRL SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW DIFFICULT A CARD IS TO GET, AND ON THE INTERNET, SHOULD NOT.

[/quote']

 

Because turning Yugimonz into a money game is clearly good for the players, right?

 

Konami's list: Considering how hard it is to get a Dark Armed Dragon' date=' it is fair that it is not banned IRL, because if you pay that much money, you should be allowed to go to wins prizes and try to make more money than you spent. Yugioh is a market more than it is a game, and that is what the Ban list IRL should reflect. However, Konami's ban list fails on the internet when everyone can get any card they want.

[/quote']

 

Again, money game. Ban lists should be created for the players, not for UDE's benefit. They aren't, but they should be. What you are advocating would make success even more directly proportional to wealth than it already is.

 

Atem's List: The list would fail IRL' date=' and would cause imminent market danger to UDE. (Though I strongly agree concerning Snipe, Frog, and RFTDD for both IRL and an interweb list) Even for the internet use, I question banning DDV and Norales, which, if anyone could deck (even IRL, still easy to get stuff) should be unlimited and limited respectively, especially if Phantom of Chaos is banned in Norales' case. And is the Atem list from that Atem the Pharoah guy from Pojo/YF/other YGO sites, because I may have traded with him once. xD

[/quote']

 

Norleras is better than Chaos Emperor Dragon in terms of advantage, rewards bad play, and is a total reset button. DDV's cost is incredibly easy to pay, and basically wins games on its own in the same way that CCV does.

 

I go to YF, and I'm fairly sure that Pharaoh Atem is someone completely unrelated to YF's atem the pharaoh.

[Static]

Because ban lists for IRL SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW DIFFICULT A CARD IS TO GET

 

I stopped reading here. No they shouldn't.

 

Especially since there's YVD' date=' playing with proxies, the videogames which use the IRL banlists, the spoiled brat down the street who runs a DAD deck and a Necroface deck, and... you know, the people who do get tournament level cards.

[/quote']

 

Ignorant aren't we?

 

Should have read the next line. A banlist that applies for IRL should not apply for the internet, it was basically the point I was trying to get across. Of course via interwebs, we should have these broken cards banned, but the point of Yugioh is for UDE/Shonen/Konami to make money by people buying their cards, and part of how they do it is by making people buy packs to get these broken cards, which pro's will pay big money for, and those pro's will go on to try and make more money by winning Booster Boxes and SJC's.

[CrabHelmet]

Because ban lists for IRL SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW DIFFICULT A CARD IS TO GET

 

I stopped reading here. No they shouldn't.

 

Especially since there's YVD' date=' playing with proxies, the videogames which use the IRL banlists, the spoiled brat down the street who runs a DAD deck and a Necroface deck, and... you know, the people who do get tournament level cards.

[/quote']

 

Ignorant aren't we?

 

Should have read the next line. A banlist that applies for IRL should not apply for the internet, it was basically the point I was trying to get across. Of course via interwebs, we should have these broken cards banned, but the point of Yugioh is for UDE/Shonen/Konami to make money by people buying their cards, and part of how they do it is by making people buy packs to get these broken cards, which pro's will pay big money for, and those pro's will go on to try and make more money by winning Booster Boxes and SJC's.

 

Turning Yugimonz into a money game hurts everyone except Konami and spoiled brats. Advocating such a thing is stupid.

[XanderTheGreat]

Unfortunately for all of you' date=' both Atem's banlist and Konami's ban list are failures. Why? Because ban lists for IRL SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW DIFFICULT A CARD IS TO GET, AND ON THE INTERNET, SHOULD NOT.

[/quote']

 

YOU FAIL.

 

Hard to get DAD? This is a joke. Just use the net.

 

Norleras is BAD for gameplay purposes and deserves the banhammer. No questions asked.

 

And Yu-Gi-Oh! at first is a GAME, not a market. You think the other way around, which is stupid.

[Static]

Unfortunately for all of you' date=' both Atem's banlist and Konami's ban list are failures. Why? Because ban lists for IRL SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW DIFFICULT A CARD IS TO GET, AND ON THE INTERNET, SHOULD NOT.

[/quote']

 

Because turning Yugimonz into a money game is clearly good for the players, right?

 

Good for the Pro's who buy the cards, and irrelevant to the average player down the block who doesn't go to regionals/SJC's.

 

Konami's list: Considering how hard it is to get a Dark Armed Dragon' date=' it is fair that it is not banned IRL, because if you pay that much money, you should be allowed to go to wins prizes and try to make more money than you spent. Yugioh is a market more than it is a game, and that is what the Ban list IRL should reflect. However, Konami's ban list fails on the internet when everyone can get any card they want.

[/quote']

 

Again, money game. Ban lists should be created for the players, not for UDE's benefit. They aren't, but they should be. What you are advocating would make success even more directly proportional to wealth than it already is.

 

What good does banning a $250 card do? Makes the people who payed for it find no use for it. They ARE the players, making it a money game helps the pro's who are prepared to spend that much money on the game. It is only bad for the players who are unwilling to spend that much money to have a top tier deck. (who can always proxy unofficially anyway, so they can still have fun)

 

Atem's List: The list would fail IRL' date=' and would cause imminent market danger to UDE. (Though I strongly agree concerning Snipe, Frog, and RFTDD for both IRL and an interweb list) Even for the internet use, I question banning DDV and Norales, which, if anyone could deck (even IRL, still easy to get stuff) should be unlimited and limited respectively, especially if Phantom of Chaos is banned in Norales' case. And is the Atem list from that Atem the Pharoah guy from Pojo/YF/other YGO sites, because I may have traded with him once. xD

[/quote']

 

Norleras is better than Chaos Emperor Dragon in terms of advantage, rewards bad play, and is a total reset button. DDV's cost is incredibly easy to pay, and basically wins games on its own in the same way that CCV does.

 

I go to YF, and I'm fairly sure that Pharaoh Atem is someone completely unrelated to YF's atem the pharaoh.

 

DDV does not win the game on its own unless used against a deck that primarily uses a lot of monsters that DDV would hit. I understand that it is good, but it is not close to banworthy. Norleras without phantom isn't the easiest thing to summon, though it is pretty brutal with Feather of the Phoenix/3 valleys. But alas, only that single dedicated deck type can run it, and it cannot win first turn, so it is not entirely broken.

[Static]

YOU FAIL.

 

Hard to get DAD? This is a joke. Just use the net.

 

Norleras is BAD for gameplay purposes and deserves the banhammer. No questions asked.

 

And Yu-Gi-Oh! at first is a GAME' date=' not a market. You think the other way around, which is stupid.[/quote']

 

DAD = $150-250. You want to spend that?

 

Norleras isn't even THAT GOOD, especially with PoC gone. Takes too long to hit the field. Not being able to generate a win for at least 3-4 Turns = too slow.

 

And Everything related to your life that involves money is a Market at heart. It is what the people you give your money to care about. How many people would not buy PTDN if Valley was limited and DAD was banned? If RFTDD+D fusion would be banned, Allure = worse than Trade in and D draw. Less people would buy the pack, and who wants that? They make new cards for the sole purpose of making money, of course they have to be better than what is already out, a bit unfair to encourage spending.

 

Yugioh is a market. That is fact, even though it isn't desirable, it is still the undeniable truth when you talk about the IRL game. Want to talk YVD, sure, no market there, use whatever list you want, but banning new cards is just silly, especially seeing as PTDN is the best selling pack in a LONG while.

 

Being the Communist that I am, I will admit that the idea of a Free Market applied anywhere disgusts me, but for the time being, yugioh and its official ban list will be most influenced BY THE AMOUNT OF MONEY IT MAKES THE PRODUCERS.

[CrabHelmet]

Unfortunately for all of you' date=' both Atem's banlist and Konami's ban list are failures. Why? Because ban lists for IRL SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW DIFFICULT A CARD IS TO GET, AND ON THE INTERNET, SHOULD NOT.

[/quote']

 

Because turning Yugimonz into a money game is clearly good for the players, right?

 

Good for the Pro's who buy the cards, and irrelevant to the average player down the block who doesn't go to regionals/SJC's.

 

So we have Money Format for pros and Coin Flip Format for everyone else, neither of which requires the slightest degree of skill? Good job, the game is dead.

 

Konami's list: Considering how hard it is to get a Dark Armed Dragon' date=' it is fair that it is not banned IRL, because if you pay that much money, you should be allowed to go to wins prizes and try to make more money than you spent. Yugioh is a market more than it is a game, and that is what the Ban list IRL should reflect. However, Konami's ban list fails on the internet when everyone can get any card they want.

[/quote']

 

Again, money game. Ban lists should be created for the players, not for UDE's benefit. They aren't, but they should be. What you are advocating would make success even more directly proportional to wealth than it already is.

 

What good does banning a $250 card do? Makes the people who payed for it find no use for it. They ARE the players, making it a money game helps the pro's who are prepared to spend that much money on the game. It is only bad for the players who are unwilling to spend that much money to have a top tier deck. (who can always proxy unofficially anyway, so they can still have fun)

 

Victory should be determined by skill, not by who's willing to shell out $250 for every card in their deck. Even if casual players can proxy them, they're still stuck with a format that doesn't take skill - you know, like the one we're in right now.

 

Atem's List: The list would fail IRL' date=' and would cause imminent market danger to UDE. (Though I strongly agree concerning Snipe, Frog, and RFTDD for both IRL and an interweb list) Even for the internet use, I question banning DDV and Norales, which, if anyone could deck (even IRL, still easy to get stuff) should be unlimited and limited respectively, especially if Phantom of Chaos is banned in Norales' case. And is the Atem list from that Atem the Pharoah guy from Pojo/YF/other YGO sites, because I may have traded with him once. xD

[/quote']

 

Norleras is better than Chaos Emperor Dragon in terms of advantage, rewards bad play, and is a total reset button. DDV's cost is incredibly easy to pay, and basically wins games on its own in the same way that CCV does.

 

I go to YF, and I'm fairly sure that Pharaoh Atem is someone completely unrelated to YF's atem the pharaoh.

 

DDV does not win the game on its own unless used against a deck that primarily uses a lot of monsters that DDV would hit. I understand that it is good, but it is not close to banworthy. Norleras without phantom isn't the easiest thing to summon, though it is pretty brutal with Feather of the Phoenix/3 valleys. But alas, only that single dedicated deck type can run it, and it cannot win first turn, so it is not entirely broken.

 

DDV does win on its own, particularly thanks to the easy hand look plus the removal of searchable monsters.

 

DAD also can't FTK, also requires its own deck, and also generates a ridiculous amount of advantage.

 

 

Nowhere have you stated why a perfect YVD banlist would not also work IRL. All you've done is make one unsubstantiated claim about UDE's market share. Oh, and you said that people get stuck with cards they can't use, which happens to be what happens whenever you ban a card.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

Good for the Pro's who buy the cards' date=' and irrelevant to the average player down the block who doesn't go to regionals/SJC's.[/quote']

 

And for those that are pros? They don't want a game that focuses entirely on who can draw before the other guy does? Those that want a more skilled metagame?

 

What good does banning a $250 card do? Makes the people who payed for it find no use for it. They ARE the players, making it a money game helps the pro's who are prepared to spend that much money on the game. It is only bad for the players who are unwilling to spend that much money to have a top tier deck. (who can always proxy unofficially anyway, so they can still have fun)

 

It shouldn't be a money game. It should never be a money game.

 

DDV does not win the game on its own unless used against a deck that primarily uses a lot of monsters that DDV would hit. I understand that it is good, but it is not close to banworthy. Norleras without phantom isn't the easiest thing to summon, though it is pretty brutal with Feather of the Phoenix/3 valleys. But alas, only that single dedicated deck type can run it, and it cannot win first turn, so it is not entirely broken.

 

DDV is banworthy. Norleras shouldn't even have the "once in a blue moon" option.

[CrabHelmet]

YOU FAIL.

 

Hard to get DAD? This is a joke. Just use the net.

 

Norleras is BAD for gameplay purposes and deserves the banhammer. No questions asked.

 

And Yu-Gi-Oh! at first is a GAME' date=' not a market. You think the other way around, which is stupid.[/quote']

 

DAD = $150-250. You want to spend that?

 

He didn't say it wasn't expensive; he just said it wasn't hard. Again, you've just proven our point: Skill is usurped by money, which doesn't help anyone except Konami.

 

Norleras isn't even THAT GOOD' date=' especially with PoC gone. Takes too long to hit the field. Not being able to generate a win for at least 3-4 Turns = too slow.

[/quote']

 

Norleras can get out faster than that, especially in a dedicated deck. Also, 3-4 turns is far from slow in a decent format, unlike the retarded three-OTK format that Konami has concocted.

 

And Everything related to your life that involves money is a Market at heart. It is what the people you give your money to care about. How many people would not buy PTDN if Valley was limited and DAD was banned? If RFTDD+D fusion would be banned' date=' Allure = worse than Trade in and D draw. Less people would buy the pack, and who wants that? They make new cards for the sole purpose of making money, of course they have to be better than what is already out, a bit unfair to encourage spending.

[/quote']

 

Someone doesn't know what the word "should" means. Again, the only people you're helping is Konami's shareholders. This format is exactly the sort of format you describe - based on money and without requiring skill - and everyone knows this format sucks. No skill is involved - it's all about lucksack OTKs that only work because the very cards you mention (DAD, Dimension Fusion, and so on) were not banned.

 

Yugioh is a market. That is fact' date=' even though it isn't desirable, it is still the undeniable truth when you talk about the IRL game. Want to talk YVD, sure, no market there, use whatever list you want, but banning new cards is just silly, especially seeing as PTDN is the best selling pack in a LONG while.

[/quote']

 

"Should". Also, new cards have been banned in the past; CEDEOTE was banned at the first opportunity, and it was one of the rarest IOC cards.

 

Being the Communist that I am' date=' I will admit that the idea of a Free Market applied anywhere disgusts me, but for the time being, yugioh and its official ban list will be most influenced BY THE AMOUNT OF MONEY IT MAKES THE PRODUCERS.

[/quote']

 

"Should". Look up the meaning of the world.

[Static]

Unfortunately for all of you' date=' both Atem's banlist and Konami's ban list are failures. Why? Because ban lists for IRL SHOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW DIFFICULT A CARD IS TO GET, AND ON THE INTERNET, SHOULD NOT.

[/quote']

 

Because turning Yugimonz into a money game is clearly good for the players, right?

 

Good for the Pro's who buy the cards, and irrelevant to the average player down the block who doesn't go to regionals/SJC's.

 

So we have Money Format for pros and Coin Flip Format for everyone else, neither of which requires the slightest degree of skill? Good job, the game is dead.

 

Konami's list: Considering how hard it is to get a Dark Armed Dragon' date=' it is fair that it is not banned IRL, because if you pay that much money, you should be allowed to go to wins prizes and try to make more money than you spent. Yugioh is a market more than it is a game, and that is what the Ban list IRL should reflect. However, Konami's ban list fails on the internet when everyone can get any card they want.

[/quote']

 

Again, money game. Ban lists should be created for the players, not for UDE's benefit. They aren't, but they should be. What you are advocating would make success even more directly proportional to wealth than it already is.

 

What good does banning a $250 card do? Makes the people who payed for it find no use for it. They ARE the players, making it a money game helps the pro's who are prepared to spend that much money on the game. It is only bad for the players who are unwilling to spend that much money to have a top tier deck. (who can always proxy unofficially anyway, so they can still have fun)

 

Victory should be determined by skill, not by who's willing to shell out $250 for every card in their deck. Even if casual players can proxy them, they're still stuck with a format that doesn't take skill - you know, like the one we're in right now.

 

Atem's List: The list would fail IRL' date=' and would cause imminent market danger to UDE. (Though I strongly agree concerning Snipe, Frog, and RFTDD for both IRL and an interweb list) Even for the internet use, I question banning DDV and Norales, which, if anyone could deck (even IRL, still easy to get stuff) should be unlimited and limited respectively, especially if Phantom of Chaos is banned in Norales' case. And is the Atem list from that Atem the Pharoah guy from Pojo/YF/other YGO sites, because I may have traded with him once. xD

[/quote']

 

Norleras is better than Chaos Emperor Dragon in terms of advantage, rewards bad play, and is a total reset button. DDV's cost is incredibly easy to pay, and basically wins games on its own in the same way that CCV does.

 

I go to YF, and I'm fairly sure that Pharaoh Atem is someone completely unrelated to YF's atem the pharaoh.

 

DDV does not win the game on its own unless used against a deck that primarily uses a lot of monsters that DDV would hit. I understand that it is good, but it is not close to banworthy. Norleras without phantom isn't the easiest thing to summon, though it is pretty brutal with Feather of the Phoenix/3 valleys. But alas, only that single dedicated deck type can run it, and it cannot win first turn, so it is not entirely broken.

 

DDV does win on its own, particularly thanks to the easy hand look plus the removal of searchable monsters.

 

DAD also can't FTK, also requires its own deck, and also generates a ridiculous amount of advantage.

 

 

Nowhere have you stated why a perfect YVD banlist would not also work IRL. All you've done is make one unsubstantiated claim about UDE's market share. Oh, and you said that people get stuck with cards they can't use, which happens to be what happens whenever you ban a card.

 

Why would a YVD list not work?

 

Because no one would make money off of a list in which every card is fair, and they wouldn't make cards due to that lack of money. A game cannot be completely determined by skill, because if it means cut-backs, they won't create it, and it won't apply IRL. Ideally, you are correct, but let's be realistic for a second. Why argue over this? I am not saying that a fair list is completely bad, but that it must also allow some reasonable market gain (like, not banning new cards and cards that help them) for it to even be a considerably realistic change. Surely you cannot deny that something that kills the market isn't a possible reality in the future of this game.

 

Got the point on DDV after thinking about it a while, though I can't see running 1 to be a massive problem for the opponent. IRL, DAD and Norleras limited, Via Interweb, both banned.

 

As of now, SJC is truly a "Spend $1,000's of dollars on your deck, stack it, and get a chance at winning $5,000 worth of prizes, and the opportunity to go to Nat's, where I could win $50,000+ worth of prizes if I do the same where" kind of thing. A better list would make it a lot less of a luck-sack game, and... Bleh, it doesn't affect high level play because they all cheat anyway. Casual play it would help some, but wouldn't be too relevant to make much of a difference other than, you can't run an OTK.

 

F*CK THIS GAME!

 

EDIT: I know what "Should" means, and I get your point. :/