Lonk Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Why do people pretend like this card doesn't exist? This card is a healthy way of controlling Special Summon-heavy Decks without outright killing them. It makes the player think about what they need to Summon, as it heavily punishes thoughtless and autopilot plays while keeping the game much more interactive based. Honestly, this is an example of a floodgate done right; it controls the flow of water but doesn't outright leave the other side parched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Could maybe become popular in the ideal banlist because Vanity's is banned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Could be good in the right format ie. after Vanity's is banned and the meta decks warrant a floodgate like this. It has potential, but its just outclassed right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Vanity's won't be banned (lol) and honestly this is quite easy to play around because often you only need one special summon to be able to get to a card that pops backrow. It's nowhere near as good as Vanity's which atm, and probably for the future because Vanity's will probably be around for longer, is far better to the point where this is hardly relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutrality Man Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Vanity's won't be banned (lol) and honestly this is quite easy to play around because often you only need one special summon to be able to get to a card that pops backrow. It's nowhere near as good as Vanity's which atm, and probably for the future because Vanity's will probably be around for longer, is far better to the point where this is hardly relevant. People like you are why I don't play against humans. Vanity's may be good in your deck, but it is fucking HORRIBLE for the game at large. This card is a healthy way of controlling Special Summon-heavy Decks without outright killing them. It makes the player think about what they need to Summon, as it heavily punishes thoughtless and autopilot plays while keeping the game much more interactive based. This is why Summon Limit is better for the game as a whole. The fact that the game doesn't immediately fucking STOP and the opponent can still DO something makes a HUGE difference in game quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 People like you are why I don't play against humans. Vanity's may be good in your deck, but it is fucking HORRIBLE for the game at large. Before making random assumptions, maybe you could actually listen to my reasoning for Vanity's not being broken rather than just assuming I'm defending it because I use it and just acting all salty? I don't consider Vanity's to be a big problem card because it's actually reasonably easy to play around, a lot more so than other floodgates like Skill Drain which definitely should get hit, and there's often a very large risk-reward situation in playing it as often it's very weak if you already have a small monster out, it could allow your opponent to plus if they have the MST and don't mind being set back, and can often make you lose too. Saying Vanity's "outright kills" special summoning decks is massively overselling it. I also think that Vanity's, like a lot of floodgates, is only good in formats where it's necessary to stop degenerate decks (see: it was good in Dragon Ruler format, it's good in Nekroz format) and if anything I think the format defines Vanity's more than Vanity's defines the format and it's things that Vanity's is good against that are causing the problem and not Vanity's itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted March 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Before making random assumptions, maybe you could actually listen to my reasoning for Vanity's not being broken rather than just assuming I'm defending it because I use it and just acting all salty? I don't consider Vanity's to be a big problem card because it's actually reasonably easy to play around, a lot more so than other floodgates like Skill Drain which definitely should get hit, and there's often a very large risk-reward situation in playing it as often it's very weak if you already have a small monster out, it could allow your opponent to plus if they have the MST and don't mind being set back, and can often make you lose too. Saying Vanity's "outright kills" special summoning decks is massively overselling it. I also think that Vanity's, like a lot of floodgates, is only good in formats where it's necessary to stop degenerate decks (see: it was good in Dragon Ruler format, it's good in Nekroz format) and if anything I think the format defines Vanity's more than Vanity's defines the format and it's things that Vanity's is good against that are causing the problem and not Vanity's itself. Doesn't Vanity's win games just by itself, though? That's when it becomes problematic. After all, there are a large amount of Decks that aren't meta-game standard that do rely on Special Summoning to do anything such as Fluffals and Performapals. In addition, the game just becomes flat-out boring if Vanity is on the field and no one draws into any way to remove it if no one has the advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Doesn't Vanity's win games just by itself, though? That's when it becomes problematic. After all, there are a large amount of Decks that aren't meta-game standard that do rely on Special Summoning to do anything such as Fluffals and Performapals. In addition, the game just becomes flat-out boring if Vanity is on the field and no one draws into any way to remove it if no one has the advantage. I think the games Vanity's wins by itself are less common than they're made out to be. More often than not games that Vanity's "wins" are games where advantage is already gained and Vanity's seal the deal. I understand that the ability to stop comebacks isn't always great but even then I don't see Vanity's completely winning all that many games. I was genuinely not aware that Performapals actually constituted a deck and was under the impression that they were just a bunch of cards with silly names, and I hardly even know what a Fluffal is so I'm not the most qualified person to talk about that but, although this will make me sound very elitist I don't think the list-worthyness of a card should be based on how it performs against (forgive me) irrelevant decks. I mean, Power Filter shuts down Dustons completely but people don't complain about that. Obviously Vanity's has a heavy impact on the metagame but I don't think it's entirely heavy enough to warrant a hit and anyway as I said before I think the problem is the cards Vanity's stops rather than it itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted March 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 I think the games Vanity's wins by itself are less common than they're made out to be. More often than not games that Vanity's "wins" are games where advantage is already gained and Vanity's seal the deal. I understand that the ability to stop comebacks isn't always great but even then I don't see Vanity's completely winning all that many games. I was genuinely not aware that Performapals actually constituted a deck and was under the impression that they were just a bunch of cards with silly names, and I hardly even know what a Fluffal is so I'm not the most qualified person to talk about that but, although this will make me sound very elitist I don't think the list-worthyness of a card should be based on how it performs against (forgive me) irrelevant decks. I mean, Power Filter shuts down Dustons completely but people don't complain about that. Obviously Vanity's has a heavy impact on the metagame but I don't think it's entirely heavy enough to warrant a hit and anyway as I said before I think the problem is the cards Vanity's stops rather than it itself. Whatever cards see more usage is where most people would complain. Power Filter is a disgusting card, but it's not used. Vanity's Emptiness is used more than in just the metagame, which was why I brought up Decks that are irrelevant to the meta but are still in that territory between super casual and competitive. From what I see from the list, the hits are given to cards that have developed a certain 'heat' factor to them. If a card's heat is high enough, then it will be in Konami's spotlight and its chances of being hit are increased at a dramatic level. Meanwhile, when a card is cold still has horrible design, it will not get any list attention at all. But, for the people that like playing around the levels between casual and competitive, they get hit the hardest when cards like Vanity's Emptiness and Raigeki are around. I do apologize for sorting the logic into a computer-based algorithm, but it does give a reason for some cards to go onto the banlist while others do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Whatever cards see more usage is where most people would complain. Power Filter is a disgusting card, but it's not used. Vanity's Emptiness is used more than in just the metagame, which was why I brought up Decks that are irrelevant to the meta but are still in that territory between super casual and competitive. From what I see from the list, the hits are given to cards that have developed a certain 'heat' factor to them. If a card's heat is high enough, then it will be in Konami's spotlight and its chances of being hit are increased at a dramatic level. Meanwhile, when a card is cold still has horrible design, it will not get any list attention at all. But, for the people that like playing around the levels between casual and competitive, they get hit the hardest when cards like Vanity's Emptiness and Raigeki are around. I do apologize for sorting the logic into a computer-based algorithm, but it does give a reason for some cards to go onto the banlist while others do not. Your logic makes perfect sense and you're correct that imbalanced cards get ignores in formats where they're not relevant, but that's the point, I don't think Vanity's is as imbalanced a card as many people are making it out to be and, as I keep saying, we should look at why Vanity's is good and not that Vanity's is good. Semi-causal players are only going to hit the hardest because they're not the main way that Konami makes money, they make it from people prepared to buy a case of Secret Forces to make Nekroz or whatever. I'm not saying that's a good thing at all but unfortunately the banlist is made to cater for the top players because they're the face of the competitive game as well as normally having the highest spend per person. I don't consider Performapal and Fluffal a good enough reason to call Vanity's broken, and I'm afraid Konami do not either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 I like how it basically has it's rulings on it. That's always nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cierfrost Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 People like you are why I don't play against humans. There are some things you just dont tell people man. It may be valid, you may have your reasons but it just makes you look bad. On topic though? I'm going to playtest this tonight now. Really curious how it runs in decks that only summon once or twice a turn anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 I like how it basically has it's rulings on it. That's always nice. Remember that time they errata'd Appropriate in a way that solved all its confusion.... And then changed it back with another errata? Anyway, Vanity will probably never be banned, much as I would like to see it gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutrality Man Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Remember that time they errata'd Appropriate in a way that solved all its confusion.... And then changed it back with another errata? Anyway, Vanity will probably never be banned, much as I would like to see it gone. http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/330607-ocg-april-2015-banlist/ OCG Limited it. That's a step in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yemachu Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Note that this card also works against Normal Summons. So if "Yosenju" is giving you trouble with their Normal Summon spam, you could try this against them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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