New TCG Banlist [08/04/2016]

[Kaiji]

idgi, if u have 3 set solemns and a cyber stein, the 5th card has to go grave in order to make exterio's effect live, which makes it weaker to board wipes

warrior returning alive solves itself as a deck full of pends can simply set monsters as the clock is reduced to a 1 attack per turn, which makes it muuch easier to draw into a board wipe

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

idgi, if u have 3 set solemns and a cyber stein, the 5th card has to go grave in order to make exterio's effect live, which makes it weaker to board wipes

warrior returning alive solves itself as a deck full of pends can simply set monsters as the clock is reduced to a 1 attack per turn, which makes it muuch easier to draw into a board wipe

K, bad example, I think what they mean is nobody will summon Stein just on his own. He'll be backed by something like Rafflesia (that might works better than the ariadne idea)

[vla1ne]

idgi, if u have 3 set solemns and a cyber stein, the 5th card has to go grave in order to make exterio's effect live, which makes it weaker to board wipes

warrior returning alive solves itself as a deck full of pends can simply set monsters as the clock is reduced to a 1 attack per turn, which makes it muuch easier to draw into a board wipe

you made 3 of those cards solemn, you pay 5000 for stein that may be why you missed the issue. turn two of those solemns into a farmgirl/ tincan and a ship, then make the third one an E-tele or literally anything else disposable. that's one summon, one negation, and then an additional negation every time you activate a card effect. you lose 5k, but you have established a lock on spells and traps, with the addition of a notice in case things get serious.

 

warrior is slightly easier to out, but imagine something like majespecter that doesn't care about destruction, and even if the deck doesn't like destruction, by summoning last warrior, you set the pace of the duel (i assume you would not drop LW if you don't have a way to capitalize on him) there's also the og power fusion, BEUD, and that one gaia fusion, and multiple other fusions that can be capitalized upon. to put it simply, the card has an extreme amount of versatility for a single card.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

the issue is that it can lock out multiple things. LW prevents summons, exterio prevents spell and traps, that's 3 avenues of play, locked right then and there. and all from one card. that's the issue. it's not just the stopping of preferred playstyles, there's a lot of things that lock preferred playstyles, it's the versatility to lock multiple avenues of play off of one card. not every deck has an easy out game 1, and in game 2, even after you side more outs, the next factor that kicks in is that cyber stein is splashable, any and every deck can drop him, meaning that you not only have to contend with cyber stein, but whatever your opponent is running that he happens to be splashed into.

 

i still say it should have it's day in the light so that aromages and D/D/D become tier 1, because it'd be worth it to see if it can keep up with the meta, but i'm also saying there there are legitimate reasons to deny its return.

It can potentially stop 3 avenues sure. But that's painting a rosy picture already.

 

Firstly, you can either stop summons or stop S/T, saying it can stop all three is a bit misguided.

 

Secondly, Monkeyboard is the only Major 1 scale in TCG iirc, so you're likely going to Normal Stein, you will have to normal it in every other deck

 

Third, as Kaiji noted, you need to have a grave set up for Exterio

 

Fourthly, now we get into outs. There is OCG is pretty much in the exact same position with regards to Exterio, we have exciton I guess, but that's really all the superior removal we have. TCG on the other hand has Kaiju, which ARE already being used. Exterio is also really only good vs the Dracopal matchup PK fire, Kozmo, and Monarchs can both out it pretty easily

 

Last Warrior suffers from TCG not having the the backrow of OCG, but you guys do have an extra Hole and Geki over OCG to utilize.

 

I just don't get why TCG is so reluctant to run outs and deal with problem, I saw it with Djinn, I saw it with Towers, now I'm seeing it with Stein. Are these cards potentially good? Sure...but this isn't something unkillable or even that difficult to deal with if decks are built more conservatively 

 

It's literally considered bad in OCG, I'm getting Trishula paranoia from TCG all over, after it's unbanned y'all will be like "right, not so good"

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

Slight side note, this went 10-0 today, OCG is teasing TCG hehe ::

[vla1ne]

It can potentially stop 3 avenues sure. But that's painting a rosy picture already.

 

Firstly, you can either stop summons or stop S/T, saying it can stop all three is a bit misguided.

 

Secondly, Monkeyboard is the only Major 1 scale in TCG iirc, so you're likely going to Normal Stein, you will have to normal it in every other deck

 

Third, as Kaiji noted, you need to have a grave set up for Exterio

 

Fourthly, now we get into outs. There is OCG is pretty much in the exact same position with regards to Exterio, we have exciton I guess, but that's really all the superior removal we have. TCG on the other hand has Kaiju, which ARE already being used. Exterio is also really only good vs the Dracopal matchup PK fire, Kozmo, and Monarchs can both out it pretty easily

 

Last Warrior suffers from TCG not having the the backrow of OCG, but you guys do have an extra Hole and Geki over OCG to utilize.

 

I just don't get why TCG is so reluctant to run outs and deal with problem, I saw it with Djinn, I saw it with Towers, now I'm seeing it with Stein. Are these cards potentially good? Sure...but this isn't something unkillable or even that difficult to deal with if decks are built more conservatively 

 

It's literally considered bad in OCG, I'm getting Trishula paranoia from TCG all over, after it's unbanned y'all will be like "right, not so good"

shock master can only stop one thing at a time as well. it's far easier to go into, but the point remains, it's not that it can stop three things at once (exterio stops two at once with a bulkier body than shock master to booy) it's that it can choose what to stop at it's leisure. that's one of the main arguments against it's return. and with exterio, if you can put 1-2 cards in the graveyard, he pays for himself. last i checked, 1-2 cards is nothing for the average deck. and normal summoning cyber isn't really that much of a drawback, it leaves a 500 ATK monster, sure, but if you know the deck you're playing against, or have even one defensive card in hand ( like a veiler for those UTL plays), cyber stein's still a safe bet to play, and completely changes the game once you succeed in summoning whatever it is you choose to summon.

 

again, i'd actually like to have him off the list for a session just to see what he does, but you can't say that it'd be the same in the TCG as it would in the OCG, you have to admit, TCG does have a habit of making unexpected plays with "tame" cards.

 

as for that side note, i laugh at the loss of upstart. I never used it because i was to lazy to find more copies so i don't care about the loss. also, i hate psy-frames

[Slinky]

 

Slight side note, this went 10-0 today, OCG is teasing TCG hehe ::

 

less teasing, more sheet player.

Who the funk runs upstart in a deck of more than 40 cards?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

less teasing, more sheet player.

Who the funk runs upstart in a deck of more than 40 cards?

A person who burns through 30 of those cards?

 

Someone clearly never got the idea behind upstart being played lol

[Slinky]

It can potentially stop 3 avenues sure. But that's painting a rosy picture already.

 

Firstly, you can either stop summons or stop S/T, saying it can stop all three is a bit misguided.

 

Secondly, Monkeyboard is the only Major 1 scale in TCG iirc, so you're likely going to Normal Stein, you will have to normal it in every other deck

 

Third, as Kaiji noted, you need to have a grave set up for Exterio

 

Fourthly, now we get into outs. There is OCG is pretty much in the exact same position with regards to Exterio, we have exciton I guess, but that's really all the superior removal we have. TCG on the other hand has Kaiju, which ARE already being used. Exterio is also really only good vs the Dracopal matchup PK fire, Kozmo, and Monarchs can both out it pretty easily

 

Last Warrior suffers from TCG not having the the backrow of OCG, but you guys do have an extra Hole and Geki over OCG to utilize.

 

I just don't get why TCG is so reluctant to run outs and deal with problem, I saw it with Djinn, I saw it with Towers, now I'm seeing it with Stein. Are these cards potentially good? Sure...but this isn't something unkillable or even that difficult to deal with if decks are built more conservatively 

 

It's literally considered bad in OCG, I'm getting Trishula paranoia from TCG all over, after it's unbanned y'all will be like "right, not so good"

 

The TCG DOES run a lot of outs.

Nekroz legit ran sooo many cards /just/ to deal with Djinn, that they ultimately just decided to agree to side it out.

(Bull Blader, Exiled Force, Book of Eclipse)

A person who burns through 30 of those cards?

 

Someone clearly never got the idea behind upstart being played lol

 

the point of upstart is to reduce your deck count BELOW 40. If you're trying to have a lower deck count with upstart, but your deck count is already above 40, just remove the upstarts, and you'll have literally the same result. There's legit no point.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The TCG DOES run a lot of outs.

Nekroz legit ran sooo many cards /just/ to deal with Djinn, that they ultimately just decided to agree to side it out.

(Bull Blader, Exiled Force, Book of Eclipse)

 

the point of upstart is to reduce your deck count BELOW 40. If you're trying to have a lower deck count with upstart, but your deck count is already above 40, just remove the upstarts, and you'll have literally the same result. There's legit no point.

And pray what would resolving Cupidity do? Upstart here is to make sure you can get to Cupidity or w/e you need before you have to resolve cupidity. Playing Upstart and over 40 cards is unconventional in most cases, but not wrong to do

[Kaiji]

All I'm really seeing is a bunch of awful hypotheticals going nowhere, especially since the go-to metric of discussing a forbidden card's impact is to place it in the context of current meta decks (even weaker decks are being brought up).

 

Cyber Stein has no relevance to the current TCG banlist.

[Rest in Piss YCMaker]

And pray what would resolving Cupidity do? Upstart here is to make sure you can get to Cupidity or w/e you need before you have to resolve cupidity. Playing Upstart and over 40 cards is unconventional in most cases, but not wrong to do

 

If you weren't running the Upstarts to begin with you'd already be at those cards.

[Slinky]

All I'm really seeing is a bunch of awful hypotheticals going nowhere, especially since the go-to metric of discussing a forbidden card's impact is to place it in the context of current meta decks (even weaker decks are being brought up).

 

Cyber Stein has no relevance to the current TCG banlist.

 

.Dracopals and Kozmo aren't considered current meta decks? Because those 2 were what most of the discussion was based around.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If you weren't running the Upstarts to begin with you'd MIGHT be at those cards.

Key point there.

 

Upstart x3=/=37 card deck, it's less than 37 if you account for deck thinners. But you need those deck thinners, if you can afford to give your opponent the extra 3k, you should play upstart.

 

Also in this case, Cupidity might remove your combo pieces, you want to get those in hand before you resolve Cupidity, the % of banishing all three driver goes down with how many cards you run. The deck was build stunningly. If anything he should have run game-space

 

It's easy for Dyson to just say "bad deckbuilding" but you don't go 10-0 by being a scrub, especially not vs PK Fire

[Rest in Piss YCMaker]

Key point there.

 

Upstart x3=/=37 card deck, it's less than 37 if you account for deck thinners. But you need those deck thinners, if you can afford to give your opponent the extra 3k, you should play upstart.

 

Also in this card, Cupidity might remove your combo pieces, you want to get those in hand before you resolve Cupidity, the % of banishing all three driver goes down with how many cards you run. The deck was build stunningly. If anything he should have run game-space

 

It's easy for Dyson to just say "bad deckbuilding" but you don't go 10-0 by being a scrub, especially not vs PK Fire

 

Not really a key point, what I said is literally true. If we just presume that the deck order without the Upstarts is the same as with, any point at which you activate an Upstart you're only drawing into a card that, were you not playing Upstart, would already be in your hand.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Not really a key point, what I said is literally true. If we just presume that the deck order without the Upstarts is the same as with, any point at which you activate an Upstart you're only drawing into a card that, were you not playing Upstart, would already be in your hand.

So you'd rather run a higher risk of banishing all three psyframe drivers face down?

 

Upstart and Game/Space in this deck would have given him a higher chance of getting what he wanted, but also to not banish all three driver, something he needs to undo cupidity

 

It's not bad deckbuilding

[Rest in Piss YCMaker]

So you'd rather run a higher risk of banishing all three psyframe drivers face down?

 

If you're so concerned about doing that then may as well run 2 Necroface 1 random card in place of the Upstarts or something. Or just don't run Cupidity and remove the possibility of it in the first place.

[vla1ne]

So you'd rather run a higher risk of banishing all three psyframe drivers face down?

 

Upstart and Game/Space in this deck would have given him a higher chance of getting what he wanted, but also to not banish all three driver, something he needs to undo cupidity

 

It's not bad deckbuilding

I get where you're going with that using upstart as filler to save his drivers, but why not drop cupidity and some of the traps instead? i get that he still wen't 10-0 so he's obviously doing something right, but it looks to me like he just ran more cards than necessary in order to avoid a drawback that he voluntarily added to his deck.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I get where you're going with that using upstart as filler to save his drivers, but why not drop cupidity and some of the traps instead? i get that he still wen't 10-0 so he's obviously doing something right, but it looks to me like he just ran more cards than necessary in order to avoid a drawback that he voluntarily added to his deck.

That goes back to the other point :)

 

Upstart x3 + Searchers has a marginally greater thinning effect than just 3 upstarts would look on paper. He both fillers his deck, but also marginally gets a higher chance of getting to the cards he needs, the psyframe field in this case

If you're so concerned about doing that then may as well run 2 Necroface 1 random card in place of the Upstarts or something. Or just don't run Cupidity and remove the possibility of it in the first place.

1 Necro in OCG thankfully

 

Because in a deck like Psyframe, you win the grind game, it's worth the initial hobble to get circuit set up w/ frames in hand or feelgood zone in hand

 

Edit: I think I should preface here: 3 upstart (or 1 now I guess) isn't for every deck. It's good in deck with rampant deck thinning and a strong end game. That depends on a strong start

[TF2_The_Scout]

I was kind of expecting Castel to get hit for some reason. Don't know why, but I did.

[ihop]

Playing 3 Upstart in that deck makes perfect sense to me - you want junk cards you don't mind burning through Cupidity and Upstart's essentially a junk card that isn't actually bad to draw because it turns itself into something else. This deck is just based off the assumption that 50 cards is the way to go, in which case a 47-card deck is still better than a 50-card deck. 

 

The only reason that deck is good is 3 TT though.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Playing 3 Upstart in that deck makes perfect sense to me - you want junk cards you don't mind burning through Cupidity and Upstart's essentially a junk card that isn't actually bad to draw because it turns itself into something else. This deck is just based off the assumption that 50 cards is the way to go, in which case a 47-card deck is still better than a 50-card deck. 

 

The only reason that deck is good is 3 TT though.

I'm a little confused why he didn't play the 3 Game and 3 Space engine on top of that tbh 

[vla1ne]

I'm a little confused why he didn't play the 3 Game and 3 Space engine on top of that tbh 

possibly because while upstart is just good on it's own, as well as decent filler, if the psuedo game engine loses certain cards to cupidity it can turn into dead draws. lose 3, or even 2 chickens to cuidity, and psuedo becomes a dead draw, while even if you lose 2-3 upstarts, that just means that everything else avoided the blow.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

possibly because while upstart is just good on it's own, as well as decent filler, if the psuedo game engine loses certain cards to cupidity it can turn into dead draws. lose 3, or even 2 chickens to cuidity, and psuedo becomes a dead draw, while even if you lose 2-3 upstarts, that just means that everything else avoided the blow.

Pseudo+Omega is some straight fire though :O

 

But fair, I kinda wanna test this out now to see which would in practice be better

[Slinky]

Playing 3 Upstart in that deck makes perfect sense to me - you want junk cards you don't mind burning through Cupidity and Upstart's essentially a junk card that isn't actually bad to draw because it turns itself into something else. This deck is just based off the assumption that 50 cards is the way to go, in which case a 47-card deck is still better than a 50-card deck. 

 

The only reason that deck is good is 3 TT though.

 

Then just play 47 cards. idgi

 

the odds of banishing all 3 Drivers through Cupidity, even at 40, or even 30 cards is extremely low, to the point where it isn't considerable, and running 47 cards is lowering that chance big time, while also lowering your chance of drawing Cupidity in the first place, or the field spell it was put in there to grab, (which he also runs /at 3/. There's no reason for upstart to be here logically.

 

Banishing all 3 Drivers, and Field Spells from Cupidity is astronomically low. Using 2 Cupidity back to back in a deck of 40 cards. Odds of banishing OR drawing all 6 copies of the 3 drivers and the 3 field spells is 3.5%. It is massively unlikely. (its 8.5% if calculated after the opening hand, and its turn 1). But again, this is only assuming 2 Cupidity are played back to back. And the probability is actually /less/ since it includes the draws as well, and realistically, this can't even be done at all since you can't use 2 Cupidity in a turn.

 

Using that for 47 cards (and consequently 42 after opening hand), you get: 2.5%, by adding 7 cards, he reduced the chance of banishing all copies by 6%, but he massively increased the chances of /not/ drawing the cards he's trying to get in the first place, all because he decided to include Cupidity in his build for random plusses. Nothing wrong with that, but running Upstart /as well/ (which effectively makes no difference if he just didn't run them at all, other than potential to "MAYBE" jar a probalility or two, but it is not likely enough to warrant the upstarts in the first place).

 

But again, this is assuming 2 are used back to back (which is impossible as its hard opt), so the chances are even /lower/ than the numbers I've already mentioned. Upstart makes no sense.

 

EDIT: Kid should run 3 Terraforming instead of 3 Upstart. Serves almost the same purpose as Upstart, but can immediately grab the field spell he appears to be so desperate on getting.