About the Soul banlist

[CrabHelmet]

 

So, now that everyone knows that the list I made with Soul and Justice was a joke (and if you didn't, welcome to last week), that Soul and Justice don't exist, that Great Moth Turbo is a terrible idea that doesn't even make sense, and that the topic's trap for bad players was to see who would blindly agree with me, we come to a very important question: Should assisted suicide be legal in a free society? However, this is a Yu-Gi-Oh forum, so instead of debating that, we're going to talk about hotfoilcard, and, more specifically, whether he was right.

 

Let me explain it in this way. Atem is the shepherd. We (if you're part of "we", you know who you are) are the sheepdogs - barking at sheep, but subservient to the shepherd. The people who blindly praised my deliberately terrible decisions on the list are all sheep. hotfoilcard is the wolf - the person who, in direct contrast to the sheep, will disagree with the sheepdogs/shepherd regardless of what they say, and who by consequence is often mutilated by said sheep, sheepdogs and shepherd for being a wolf.

 

In order to examine whether he was actually right or whether his claim that the list was bad was merely a coincidence, let's take a look at his criticisms of the original list, which I have ignored up until now.

 

Essentially' date=' it's an improved version of Atem's list that Soul and I have spent the last two weeks constructing.

 

 

I. Forbidden Cards

 

You cannot use these cards in your Deck or Side Deck:

 

ACCUMULATED FORTUNE

ALL-OUT ATTACKS why? has done nothing to impact the meta yet...so it annoying...IMO the loop is kind of inconsistent and dangerous...plus i have a deck with this so from unlimited to banned...uh uh

ARCANA FORCE XXI - THE WORLD again yet to make an impact...this one if fun and inconsistent...another 3 to banned...i dont see it

BLACK LUSTER SOLDIER - ENVOY OF THE BEGINNING

BUTTERFLY DAGGER - ELMA

CALL OF THE HAUNTED

CARD OF SAFE RETURN a nice card in general...i think it would be crippled at 1 no need to ban it

CHAIN MATERIAL

CHANGE OF HEART

CHAOS EMPEROR DRAGON - ENVOY OF THE END

CHAOS GREED

CHAOS SORCERER

CHIMERATECH FORTRESS DRAGON (Chimeratech Fortress Dragon)

CHIMERATECH OVERDRAGON

CONFISCATION

CRUSH CARD VIRUS i agree

CUP OF ACE balanced IMO

CYBER DRAGON not really hurting anybody at two IMO

CYBER END DRAGON

CYBER JAR

CYBER-STEIN

CYBER TWIN DRAGON

DAIROKKAN (Sixth Sense)

DARK ARMED DRAGON ok

DARK HOLE

DARKLORD ZERATO

DARK MAGICIAN OF CHAOS again ok and ok

DECK DEVASTATION VIRUS not necessary and nice anti GB card IMO

DELINQUENT DUO

DESTINY HERO - DISK COMMANDER

DIMENSION FUSION

EPIDEMIC ERADICATION VIRUS nice counter to all the crazy long turns that use like 5 draw spells in one turn...is this at 3 now? icr...i suppose it could go to 1

EXCHANGE OF THE SPIRIT

FIBER JAR

GLADIATOR BEAST HERAKLINOS totally overreacting...i would ban prisma before this. again unlimited to banned? i dont think so...limit to 1 if u want...

GOLD SARCOPHAGUS

GRACEFUL CHARITY

HARPIE'S FEATHER DUSTER

IMPERIAL ORDER

JUDGMENT DRAGON

LAST TURN

LAST WILL

LIFE EQUALIZER

LIMITER REMOVAL unneccessary unless you can show some super broken decklist...

MAGICAL EXPLOSION

MAGICAL SCIENTIST

MAKYURA THE DESTRUCTOR

MEGAMORPH

MEIFU NO SHISHA GOES (Gorz the Emissary of Darkness)

MIRAGE OF NIGHTMARE

MONSTER REBORN

MORPHING JAR

NOBLEMAN OF CROSSOUT fine at 1

NEO-SPACIAN GRAND MOLE fine at 1 its balanced at 1 as it slows down the controller

PAINFUL CHOICE

POT OF GREED

PREMATURE BURIAL

RAIGEKI

RETURN FROM THE DIFFERENT DIMENSION

REVERSAL QUIZ

RING OF DESTRUCTION

SANGAN

SINISTER SERPENT

SKY SCOURGE NORLERAS currently not making much noise at 3, difficult to summon properly, 3 card combo necessary to abuse (foolish or AK, PoC, and norelas)

SNATCH STEAL

SNIPE HUNTER

THE FORCEFUL SENTRY

THOUSAND-EYES RESTRICT

TIME SEAL

TIME WIZARD

TRAP DUSTSHOOT fine at 1 IMO

TREEBORN FROG ok

TRIBE-INFECTING VIRUS

TSUKUYOMI

ULTIMATE OFFERING

UNITED WE STAND

VICTORY DRAGON

WITCH OF THE BLACK FOREST

YATA-GARASU

 

 

 

 

II. Limited Cards

 

You can ONLY use one of the following cards in the Deck & Side Deck combined:

 

ALLURE OF DARKNESS

BREAKER THE MAGICAL WARRIOR

CARD TROOPER

CEASEFIRE

CHAIN STRIKE

D.D. SURVIVOR this card and whole deck type is super fun...i would hate to see this at anything less than 2

DANDELION (Dandylion)

ELEMENTAL HERO STRATOS

GLADIATOR BEAST GYZARUS

GREEN BABOON, DEFENDER OF THE FOREST

MAGICIAN OF FAITH

NECROFACE

NIGHT ASSAILANT

PHANTOM OF CHAOS

REASONING im sick of reasoning good call

SWORDS OF REVEALING LIGHT

TRADE-IN i say nay for completely selfish reasons

TWIN-HEADED BEHEMOTH

TWIN SWORDS OF FLASHING LIGHT - TRYCE

 

 

 

NEW! - The following cards are no longer Limited: Advanced Ritual Art (yes plz), Book of Moon, Brain Control, Card Destruction (wow), D.D. Warrior Lady, Destiny Hero - Malicious, Exodia the Forbidden One, Fissure, Foolish Burial, Future Fusion, Giant Trunade, Gravity Bind, Heavy Storm, Left Arm of the Forbidden One, Left Leg of the Forbidden One, Level Limit - Area B, Light and Darkness Dragon, Mage Power, Magic Cylinder, Magical Stone Excavation, Manticore of Darkness, Marshmallon, Mask of Darkness, Metamorphosis, Mind Crush, Mirror Force, Mystical Space Typhoon, Ojama Trio, Overload Fusion, Raiza the Storm Monarch, Reinforcement of the Army, Right Arm of the Forbidden One, Right Leg of the Forbidden One, Royal Decree, Scapegoat, Smashing Ground, Spirit Reaper, The Transmigration Prophecy, Torrential Tribute, Wall of Revealing Light

 

this last section is completely bonkers...

 

ARA - yes plz may i have another i luv u ara

UNLIMITED BRAIN - i just barfed...horrible idea

UNLIMITED HEAVY - i just became an emo...another horrible idea

TRIP EXODIA peices - kind of interesting to think about but lets put our toe in and test the water at 2 each if you wanna go this route...

LLAB, CYLINDER, MF, MST, ROTA, SMASHING, OJAMA TRIO, ROYAL DECREE - im okay with unlimiting

MARSHMALLON, GOATS, REAPER - hugh? is somebody like fiending for a stall/burn SJC winner? not sure how i feel about it but the gut says nay.

TRANSMI and TORRENTIAL at 3 i say nay

 

Protip: This topic is a cunning trap for bad players who think they're good at this game.

 

alternative interpretation: this ban list is from outer space with some notable exceptions which i either didnt say anything about or agreed with

 

 

Now, from examining his comments, we can tell that his entire thought process is wrong - making his decisions based solely on blind gut reaction, or based on how drastically it differs from Konami's list, or based on how that card has influenced the meta, or demands "testing the waters", and so on - but let's jump right into the accuracy of his comments.

 

Out of 27 cases where he disagrees with my fake list (he later cites this figure as 40+ cases, but we can attribute this to his sucky math skills):

 

* 18 were not mistakes on my part. He's just wrong here.

 

* 1 was the Exodia head, where he randomly demands "testing the waters" at 2, when the head should actually be at 0. (The limbs are fine at 3.)

 

* 1 was Trade-In, where he says it's wrong "for selfish reasons". The fact that it actually is bad shows that the correlation between his opinion and reality is mere coincidence.

 

* 1 was Neo-Spacian Grand Mole, where he wants Mole at 1 instead of 0. In actuality, Mole should go to 3. So he's still wrong.

 

* 1 was Gladiator Beast Heraklinos. Though he correctly surmised that it was not banworthy, he then went on to suggest putting it at 1. Limiting a Fusion Monster? Yeah. That makes sense. Except it doesn't.

 

* 1 was The World, which is actually debatable. However, though this is open to discussion, I do feel that it should be banned (even thought Atem says otherwise).

 

* 4 were Heavy Storm, D.D. Survivor, Marshmallon, and Spirit Reaper. Even a dueling chipmunk could tell that these were ridiculous choices.

 

Now, let's examine where he agreed with me. Out of these 14 cases (by the way, notice how more than 1/3 becomes "some notable exceptions" in his analysis of the list?):

 

* 4 were actually deliberate mistakes on my part. He's just wrong here. Note that one of these was Mirror Force, which even a dueling walrus should be able to recognize as a terrible idea.

 

* 10 were extremely obvious fixes like 3 ARA, all of which were carried over from Atem's list.

 

Something else to note: In his crusade to make my list appear as bad as possible, he completely ignored Gladiator Beast Gyzarus being Limited, thereby giving tacit agreement to it. A Limited Fusion Monster should be enough to make any half decent player say "LOLWUT".

 

So, where he agreed with me, he was right 10/14 of the time, and where he disagreed, he was right 5/27 of the time (arguably as high as 7/27, if we give him undeserved credit for Heraklinos and Grand Mole). That's only 17/41 even when we're generous. On average, he'd have done better if, for each of those 41 cards on which he commented, he had flipped a coin to determine whether to agree or disagree with the change.

 

Conclusion: A coin is better at evaluating banlists than hotfoilcard is. Congratulations, you've lost to an inanimate object.

 

Now, let's take a look at some of the people who fell into the trap of calling the bad list good. (Again, hotfoilcard doesn't count as avoiding the trap, since he'll disagree with anything I post.) Calling the list good, except with some disagreement with one or two of the most blatant deliberate errors (or even disagreeing with one or two of the things that are correct), counts as falling into the trap.

 

The only one I question is the:

"Arcana Force XXI - The World"

 

Otherwise well done C.H.' date=' well done. :)

[/quote']

good list crab' date=' we are talking about soul from DMU *insert many other byond YGO games here, along with YVD* right?

[/quote']

I'm really loving this list. I'm thinking of what would be really good here. Apprentice Engine maybe? :?

^with card of safe return banned manticore loop is dead

this is good list apart from im a little unsure about 3 mirror force because it doesnt promote aggro. Also im not sure on 3 heavy storm as this makes players wary of setting traps which arent chainable

I see nothing wrong with this. I had a query' date=' but I must've worked it out.

Also, Great Moth Turbo FTW! I'm gonna love this decklist.

[/quote']

Nice' date=' but note that Gyzarus can be reused after being sent to the graveyard.

Ex: GB Darius to get him to the field, using him in a Fusion to get him back where he belongs, and then fusing Bestiari with another GB to get him back, activating his effect.

[/quote']

i think this list is very good however i feel like an idiot because i don't understand why accumulated and chain strike are banned/limited' date=' they are both very situational and i didn't see any counters banned/limited and why not add Miraculous Rebirth as banned/limited since it has the same activational cost

all: chain link 4 or higher and can not be activated if similiar effect/name was activated in the chain

[/quote']

Crab: This is an amazing list.

 

now i want to run Insect Turbo.

 

lol

 

Awesome idea!

ALL-OUT ATTACKS

 

lolwut?

 

CALL OF THE HAUNTED

 

I don't care what Chaos Pudding says in response to this' date=' but banning Call of the Haunted when Heavy Storm and Mystical Space Typhoon are at 3 is pro.

 

 

CHIMERATECH FORTRESS DRAGON (Chimeratech Fortress Dragon)

 

Banning this when Cyber Dragon is banned is a great move!

 

GLADIATOR BEAST HERAKLINOS

 

So' date=' 1-for-1 removal is bad for the game now?

 

LIFE EQUALIZER

 

lolwut?

 

SANGAN

 

how is this bad for the game at 1?

 

 

UNITED WE STAND

 

see Sangan

 

The rest is good.

 

Note that only one of the "mistakes" that Remix found (before saying "The rest is good") was actually a mistake.

 

Oh, and Chaos Pudding posted it on Pojo and TCGplayer, hailing it as the best list ever and calling the locals n00bs for not understanding it.

 

The moral of the story? Just because someone who's good at the game declares something to be true doesn't mean it is necessarily true. (The moral for hotfoilcard is that just because someone who is good at the game declares something to be true doesn't mean it is necessarily false.) Blindly agreeing with someone isn't being good at the game, it's being a sheep.

 

This has been a test of this board. The results are obvious.

[Azuh]

Yet i asked why was The Fool, Spirit Reaper and Marshmellon were at 3

 

Baaaaaaa

[b7hamma]

This has been a test of this board. The results are obvious.

 

Because you were expecting...?

 

Congratulations guys' date=' I successfully clawed my eyes out.

 

Way to go.

[/quote']

[CrabHelmet]

This has been a test of this board. The results are obvious.

 

Because you were expecting...?

 

A test isn't any fun when the testee has a high chance of passing.

[JesusofChaos™]

at least i highlighted some of the blatant errors which is more than some ppl, at least there is a lesson to learn from this. No more jumping on the band wagon for me =)

[hotfoilcard]

im flattered

 

i thought u didn't read my posts crab? i sure am seeing a lot of my name in yours...

 

does crab have a crush?

 

im not available crab...

 

Oh, and Chaos Pudding posted it on Pojo and TCGplayer, hailing it as the best list ever and calling the locals n00bs for not understanding it.

 

actually i posted the list on tcg not chaos.

[Exiro]

^

|

|

|

That was the Hall of Fame, right? And I'm in it?! Kewl.

 

j/k.

 

Well, you got me there. I wasn't really paying attention when posting that, I just wanted to spread something that I read on Metagame and Crab didn't seem to know. However, that was one of the worse thinks that can be chosen to be on a list. Posting there should've been done with attention, so yeah, you got me.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Yeah, I admit it. I thought that the list was legit. But I only posted it on Pojo and (after I found out it was fake) on Duelistgroundz. There actually were a few Pojo people who I managed to convince of a few points, but overall it was a failure. The Duelistgroundz people just lol'd and the topic got locked after around 15 minutes or so.

 

Although, I should have caught on that it was fake from the moment that I saw that Exodia wasn't banned. I guess I trusted your judgment over my own too much.

[hotfoilcard]

im surprised the atem's list got locked on tcg and not the crabhelmet list

[Purple Dinosaur]

I like this banlist. Keep it that way! The cards that you mentioned in there that you didn;t think belonged, should stay right where they are. No need to change them.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

im surprised the atem's list got locked on tcg and not the crabhelmet list

 

Yeah, that surprised me. I was arguing the Atem list fine, and then that stupid mod locked it because that one guy kept saying that the topic should be locked.

[hotfoilcard]

im surprised the atem's list got locked on tcg and not the crabhelmet list

 

Yeah' date=' that surprised me. I was arguing the Atem list fine, and then that stupid mod locked it because that one guy kept saying that the topic should be locked.

[/quote']

 

i still didnt think you ever really convinced anyone exodia should be banned...

 

and ive yet to get any real answer to the running theme of "luck is bad" that has been prevalent thru the arguments of both of these banlists.

 

and i think i was composing some uber ownage post for that thread on word and then it got locked (jk i dont really remember but it might be true)

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

im surprised the atem's list got locked on tcg and not the crabhelmet list

 

Yeah' date=' that surprised me. I was arguing the Atem list fine, and then that stupid mod locked it because that one guy kept saying that the topic should be locked.

[/quote']

 

i still didnt think you ever really convinced anyone exodia should be banned...

 

and ive yet to get any real answer to the running theme of "luck is bad" that has been prevalent thru the arguments of both of these banlists.

 

and i think i was composing some uber ownage post for that thread on word and then it got locked (jk i dont really remember but it might be true)

 

As I've said time and time again, Exoida exists for no reason but to lucksack.

[hotfoilcard]

thats like saying the game should have 12000 lp because 8000 is lucksack

 

kind of a meaningless point that you keep repeating...

 

IMO

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

thats like saying the game should have 12000 lp because 8000 is lucksack

 

kind of a meaningless point that you keep repeating...

 

IMO

 

What? How does that have anything to do with Exodia being lucksack? Also, at any Life Point level other than 8000, the game falls apart.

[hotfoilcard]

well maybe thats not the best example but lucksack is just kind of an ambiguous synonym for "bad" or "i dont like this" and thus...must be defended more deeply...

 

alternatively i would probably defend exodia with words such as "fun" and it would be just as meaningless.

 

ultimately i think more win conditions = a more interesting game...and that simple statement is probably my best defense for exodia

[tonisanoob]

well chances are minus some obvios things that just shouldnt have been i probably either agreed on it, or missed it

 

(although i was thinking limiting a fusion wtf)

 

but chances are i was a sheep i dunno (if you can tell me)

 

make a real list crab :)

[hotfoilcard]

lol @ make a real list crab

[Orochi]

This has been a test of this board. The results are obvious.

 

Because you were expecting...?

 

A test isn't any fun when the testee has a high chance of passing.

 

i passed...

 

my only conclusion on that list was "better not say a word" because some changes were OK, but some i lol'd... i thaught "this is weird, crab doesn't make this kind of mistakes" so i remained silent... maybe i'm a sheep, but i prefer to be the black sheep... lol

 

 

 

but there's another conclusion... hotfoil is jealous or in love with crab...

[Exiro]

This has been a test of this board. The results are obvious.

 

Because you were expecting...?

 

A test isn't any fun when the testee has a high chance of passing.

 

i passed...

 

my only conclusion on that list was "better not say a word" because some changes were OK' date=' but some i lol'd... i thaught "this is weird, crab doesn't make this kind of mistakes" so i remained silent... [u']maybe i'm a sheep, but i prefer to be the black sheep[/u]... lol

 

 

 

but there's another conclusion... hotfoil is jealous or in love with crab...

 

I prefer to be an albino black sheep :)

[The Slime Lord]

So am I considered a bad player because of a single post? I know I'm not awesome at the game, but I know I'm not bad. Bad players aren't able to beat a bunch of guys who go to regionals with their Lightsworns and DAD.

 

Anyway, I guess I've learned to watch out when following the bandwagon.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

well maybe thats not the best example but lucksack is just kind of an ambiguous synonym for "bad" or "i dont like this" and thus...must be defended more deeply...

 

alternatively i would probably defend exodia with words such as "fun" and it would be just as meaningless.

 

ultimately i think more win conditions = a more interesting game...and that simple statement is probably my best defense for exodia

 

No. Lucksack is synonymus with "bad for the game", not "bad" in general. The game should eliminate luck as much as possible. It would have been nice if Exodia required something that was less lucksackish to achieve its win condition, but, as it is, Exodia is the most lucksackish alternate win condition still legal in Advanced.

 

And more win conditions = more interesting game only when the existing win conditions aren't lucksack.

[hotfoilcard]

buy exoda decks ARENT just about luck. they use piece searchers (deep diver, emissary, sangan, tomato) and/or draw engines (HOTU, manticore, moosman, appropriate, chain fortune, flip-draw, etc.)...

 

plus my other argument was that things that arent "top tier" or owning the metagame shouldnt be banned...

 

lol @ internet masochist

[「tea.leaf」]

Mah... So what's a guy to do now when he's got a brain and isn't part of Crab's army?

[Kizzi]

Mah... So what's a guy to do now when he's got a brain and isn't part of Crab's army?

Join Crab's army?