The Validity of Religion

[Static]

I sincerely doubt it. Ever heard of "Pontius Pilot"? Catholics recite his name during every service in our prayers. He wad the ROMAN official who ultimately sent Jesus to death. Also' date=' it was the roman officials who took Jesus into custody in the first place.

 

So, Christians are fully aware that the Jews are not to blame.

[/quote']

 

It was the roman king who gave the option of sending Jesus to death or Barabbas (a serial killer) to death. The Jews chose to send Jesus to death because he claimed of having divine powers.

 

So yes, it was the Jews who were to blame; they ultimately decided if Jesus got to live or not.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

The Romans opted the Jews the option to kill him, it is the Romans fault for not letting him free. It is the EARLIEST CAUSE that is fault for everything, because free will doesn't exist.

 

Ultimately it is the fault of the Jewish people; they sealed his fate. They could have allowed him freedom and life, instead they exiled him to a painful death. And watched it AS it was happening.

 

You missed something. The same statement also shows why Hitler is not responsible for the Holocaust. All things that happen are inevitable, and we do not choose in our lifetimes, we are merely influenced by the past to act exactly the way we do in the present, and that affects future actions, thoughts, and events.

 

Everything connected. Everything certain.

Free will does exist. It's just that people are too easily influenced to stress it.

 

No it doesn't.......

 

How can you call yourself an Athiest if you are not a Determinist?

 

Theres another thread I will link you too which shows how wrong that last statement was.

 

I am an atheist because of my free will. I dont believe in an overpowering force that creates everything.

 

But you believe in a universe where cause and effect exist. Things in the past determine everything you feel, every thought you think, and with those exact mixes of thoughts and feelings, it determines all of your actions.

[Yogg-Saron]

Maybe religion does not need to exist yes, but what will we hope for and believe in? There has to be some points to life that people think is right, and that is the most important thing. Doesn't matter if your atheist, Christian, Jewish, or not. You believe in something and that is all that matters.

 

Btw, 1 more check for a rant for Static.

[Willieh]

I sincerely doubt it. Ever heard of "Pontius Pilot"? Catholics recite his name during every service in our prayers. He wad the ROMAN official who ultimately sent Jesus to death. Also' date=' it was the roman officials who took Jesus into custody in the first place.

 

So, Christians are fully aware that the Jews are not to blame.

[/quote']

 

It was the roman king who gave the option of sending Jesus to death or Barabbas (a serial killer) to death. The Jews chose to send Jesus to death because he claimed of having divine powers.

 

So yes, it was the Jews who were to blame; they ultimately decided if Jesus got to live or not.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

The Romans opted the Jews the option to kill him, it is the Romans fault for not letting him free. It is the EARLIEST CAUSE that is fault for everything, because free will doesn't exist.

 

Ultimately it is the fault of the Jewish people; they sealed his fate. They could have allowed him freedom and life, instead they exiled him to a painful death. And watched it AS it was happening.

 

You missed something. The same statement also shows why Hitler is not responsible for the Holocaust. All things that happen are inevitable, and we do not choose in our lifetimes, we are merely influenced by the past to act exactly the way we do in the present, and that affects future actions, thoughts, and events.

 

Everything connected. Everything certain.

Free will does exist. It's just that people are too easily influenced to stress it.

 

No it doesn't.......

 

How can you call yourself an Athiest if you are not a Determinist?

 

Theres another thread I will link you too which shows how wrong that last statement was.

 

I am an atheist because of my free will. I dont believe in an overpowering force that creates everything.

 

But you believe in a universe where cause and effect exist. Things in the past determine everything you feel, every thought you think, and with those exact mixes of thoughts and feelings, it determines all of your actions.

 

I can believe in cause and effect and be atheist to. Remember; this is the past of the future and that's the exact same thing they will be saying years from now. The past used to be the present, and they probably thought that too. Basically what I'm saying is; we aren't manipulated by time, just smally influenced by it. Our decisions aren't based completely based off time, we just keep making decisions redundantly. Which honestly would prove free will to exist even more because we DO keep making the same mistakes. I see where you're coming from; you're basically saying that since time influences our lives so greatly, and so heavily, that free will basicaly does not exist; everything is the effect of a cause. But time can't determine whats going to happen tomorrow, or else we would all be fortune tellers.

[Static]

I sincerely doubt it. Ever heard of "Pontius Pilot"? Catholics recite his name during every service in our prayers. He wad the ROMAN official who ultimately sent Jesus to death. Also' date=' it was the roman officials who took Jesus into custody in the first place.

 

So, Christians are fully aware that the Jews are not to blame.

[/quote']

 

It was the roman king who gave the option of sending Jesus to death or Barabbas (a serial killer) to death. The Jews chose to send Jesus to death because he claimed of having divine powers.

 

So yes, it was the Jews who were to blame; they ultimately decided if Jesus got to live or not.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

The Romans opted the Jews the option to kill him, it is the Romans fault for not letting him free. It is the EARLIEST CAUSE that is fault for everything, because free will doesn't exist.

 

Ultimately it is the fault of the Jewish people; they sealed his fate. They could have allowed him freedom and life, instead they exiled him to a painful death. And watched it AS it was happening.

 

You missed something. The same statement also shows why Hitler is not responsible for the Holocaust. All things that happen are inevitable, and we do not choose in our lifetimes, we are merely influenced by the past to act exactly the way we do in the present, and that affects future actions, thoughts, and events.

 

Everything connected. Everything certain.

Free will does exist. It's just that people are too easily influenced to stress it.

 

No it doesn't.......

 

How can you call yourself an Athiest if you are not a Determinist?

 

Theres another thread I will link you too which shows how wrong that last statement was.

 

I am an atheist because of my free will. I dont believe in an overpowering force that creates everything.

 

But you believe in a universe where cause and effect exist. Things in the past determine everything you feel, every thought you think, and with those exact mixes of thoughts and feelings, it determines all of your actions.

 

I can believe in cause and effect and be atheist to. Remember; this is the past of the future and that's the exact same thing they will be saying years from now. The past used to be the present, and they probably thought that too. Basically what I'm saying is; we aren't manipulated by time, just smally influenced by it. Our decisions aren't based completely based off time, we just keep making decisions redundantly. Which honestly would prove free will to exist even more because we DO keep making the same mistakes. I see where you're coming from; you're basically saying that since time influences our lives so greatly, and so heavily, that free will basicaly does not exist; everything is the effect of a cause. But time can't determine whats going to happen tomorrow, or else we would all be fortune tellers.

 

No, There is one certain future. That is what I am saying. It will not change because you think you can make choices, or because I think I make choices, and I choose to do something. We simply feel impulses, which are the result of the past, which make us do EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO, MAKING EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN HAPPEN. With no room for change.

 

Fortune tellers do exist. Ever heard of Nostradamos?

[Willieh]

I sincerely doubt it. Ever heard of "Pontius Pilot"? Catholics recite his name during every service in our prayers. He wad the ROMAN official who ultimately sent Jesus to death. Also' date=' it was the roman officials who took Jesus into custody in the first place.

 

So, Christians are fully aware that the Jews are not to blame.

[/quote']

 

It was the roman king who gave the option of sending Jesus to death or Barabbas (a serial killer) to death. The Jews chose to send Jesus to death because he claimed of having divine powers.

 

So yes, it was the Jews who were to blame; they ultimately decided if Jesus got to live or not.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

The Romans opted the Jews the option to kill him, it is the Romans fault for not letting him free. It is the EARLIEST CAUSE that is fault for everything, because free will doesn't exist.

 

Ultimately it is the fault of the Jewish people; they sealed his fate. They could have allowed him freedom and life, instead they exiled him to a painful death. And watched it AS it was happening.

 

You missed something. The same statement also shows why Hitler is not responsible for the Holocaust. All things that happen are inevitable, and we do not choose in our lifetimes, we are merely influenced by the past to act exactly the way we do in the present, and that affects future actions, thoughts, and events.

 

Everything connected. Everything certain.

Free will does exist. It's just that people are too easily influenced to stress it.

 

No it doesn't.......

 

How can you call yourself an Athiest if you are not a Determinist?

 

Theres another thread I will link you too which shows how wrong that last statement was.

 

I am an atheist because of my free will. I dont believe in an overpowering force that creates everything.

 

But you believe in a universe where cause and effect exist. Things in the past determine everything you feel, every thought you think, and with those exact mixes of thoughts and feelings, it determines all of your actions.

 

I can believe in cause and effect and be atheist to. Remember; this is the past of the future and that's the exact same thing they will be saying years from now. The past used to be the present, and they probably thought that too. Basically what I'm saying is; we aren't manipulated by time, just smally influenced by it. Our decisions aren't based completely based off time, we just keep making decisions redundantly. Which honestly would prove free will to exist even more because we DO keep making the same mistakes. I see where you're coming from; you're basically saying that since time influences our lives so greatly, and so heavily, that free will basicaly does not exist; everything is the effect of a cause. But time can't determine whats going to happen tomorrow, or else we would all be fortune tellers.

 

No, There is one certain future. That is what I am saying. It will not change because you think you can make choices, or because I think I make choices, and I choose to do something. We simply feel impulses, which are the result of the past, which make us do EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO, MAKING EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN HAPPEN. With no room for change.

 

Fortune tellers do exist. Ever heard of Nostradamos?

 

What you say makes since. But look at it this way...Even if the future is already determined, our choices have to be the cause. And depending on what we choose; the future is going to be different. The only way we could truely decide who is right in this argument was if time was a solid object we could study; then we would be able to see if there were splits in it, or if it's just a straight line.

[HelioSpark]

IMO, your choices are caused by your pre-determined instinct about whatever you are making a choice about. Therefore, your whole life has been blueprinted for you at birth.

[Static]

IMO' date=' your choices are caused by your pre-determined instinct about whatever you are making a choice about. Therefore, your whole life has been blueprinted for you at birth.

[/quote']

 

Q4T!

[Yogg-Saron]

IMO' date=' your choices are caused by your pre-determined instinct about whatever you are making a choice about. Therefore, your whole life has been blueprinted for you at birth.

[/quote']

I disagree. I do not think your life is planned out like that. I believe that you have choices and you will make those choices, whether it be good or bad because of *sorry Static* free will.

[Willieh]

IMO' date=' your choices are caused by your pre-determined instinct about whatever you are making a choice about. Therefore, your whole life has been blueprinted for you at birth.

[/quote']

 

Q4T!

 

How can you be an atheist and quote the phrase "Your whole life has been blueprinted for you at birth?" Basically that is more like the christian belief. Almost divine intervention.

[HelioSpark]

^that is in no way a christian belief. Christians say that you should live your life following god....but there are may ways to do that.

[Willieh]

^that is in no way a christian belief. Christians say that you should live your life following god....but there are may ways to do that.

 

What about the whole thing where "God has a purpose for you". That would be just like that. If god has a purpose for you then he would obviously have your life planned out... And if the point to life is to just go through your life following god, then you have become a zombie impulsed through the church. If that's the case, where christians say you should live your life following god, if you're a christian then your life isn't decided by your instincts; but rather by other people. Meaning you deprived yourself of your own free will.

[HelioSpark]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

[Willieh]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

 

When you do that you have made yourself a zombie. You forsakened yourself to an entire life of helping out and being god. No there's nothing wrong with that, but it does make you a zombie.

[HelioSpark]

technically everyone is a zombie because there is no free will.

[Willieh]

technically everyone is a zombie because there is no free will.

 

You say that like it is a definate fact. But you have no foundation to PROVE it on. We can't view time and see it branch off in different directions. And we also cant see time and look at it go straight as an arrow. Honestly, neither of us can be certainly right. We just have to assume that we are right; in which case I think we both are getting nowhere.

[Static]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

 

When you do that you have made yourself a zombie. You forsakened yourself to an entire life of helping out and being god. No there's nothing wrong with that' date=' but it does make you a zombie.

[/quote']

 

Marxist philosophy.

 

"The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him, but to the object."

 

But also.

 

"Every act and event is the inevitable result of prior acts and events and is independent of human will."

 

Quit being a half Marxist, we need moar whole ones.

[Willieh]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

 

When you do that you have made yourself a zombie. You forsakened yourself to an entire life of helping out and being god. No there's nothing wrong with that' date=' but it does make you a zombie.

[/quote']

 

Marxist philosophy.

 

"The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him, but to the object."

 

But also.

 

"Every act and event is the inevitable result of prior acts and events and is independent of human will."

 

Quit being a half Marxist, we need more* whole ones.

This is why humans have free will:

 

Honey Bees constantly pollinate flowers and make honey with no other actions during the course of their life.

 

Humans have logic; making it possible for them to decide what the best decision is for them. Free will doesn't describe your fate being sealed. Free will describes the fact that we CAN decide what the better descision is. Maybe your life is already mapped out from your birth; but that doesnt change the fact that there's either a right decision AND a wrong decision. Which one you choose is up to you; there is no intervention of another creature or thing or theory or whatever. The fact that we have the option between the two, rather than just 1 option, makes us have free will.

[Static]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

 

When you do that you have made yourself a zombie. You forsakened yourself to an entire life of helping out and being god. No there's nothing wrong with that' date=' but it does make you a zombie.

[/quote']

 

Marxist philosophy.

 

"The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him, but to the object."

 

But also.

 

"Every act and event is the inevitable result of prior acts and events and is independent of human will."

 

Quit being a half Marxist, we need more* whole ones.

This is why humans have free will:

 

Honey Bees constantly pollinate flowers and make honey with no other actions during the course of their life.

 

Humans have logic; making it possible for them to decide what the best decision is for them. Free will doesn't describe your fate being sealed. Free will describes the fact that we CAN decide what the better descision is. Maybe your life is already mapped out from your birth; but that doesnt change the fact that there's either a right decision AND a wrong decision. Which one you choose is up to you; there is no intervention of another creature or thing or theory or whatever. The fact that we have the option between the two, rather than just 1 option, makes us have free will.

 

Conscious and rationality don't exist. The better decision is picked if we don't want to pick the worse one, because we know the consequences (or some other misc reason), or the wrong one is picked, because you are influenced into picking (or some other misc reason). Yes, WE MAKE THE CHOICE, but the choice we make was the one we were going to make because of how we have been influenced in the past, to think the way we do in the present, and how everything that happened before our birth caused us to inevitably be born, and grow, and learn, or not learn what we learn or don't learn, thus causing our rationality to be exactly what it is when we have to make said decision, and causing us to "choose" the one we will choose. Sure, we "could" have picked the other one if we were to get into the same situation, BUT we would not have. This applies for all choices, and all choices are inevitable, regardless of logic, reason, emotion, rationality, consciousness, or any other sort of excuse you can find in the perceivable and un-perceivable (don't need to worry about those :P) existence.

[Willieh]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

 

When you do that you have made yourself a zombie. You forsakened yourself to an entire life of helping out and being god. No there's nothing wrong with that' date=' but it does make you a zombie.

[/quote']

 

Marxist philosophy.

 

"The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him, but to the object."

 

But also.

 

"Every act and event is the inevitable result of prior acts and events and is independent of human will."

 

Quit being a half Marxist, we need more* whole ones.

This is why humans have free will:

 

Honey Bees constantly pollinate flowers and make honey with no other actions during the course of their life.

 

Humans have logic; making it possible for them to decide what the best decision is for them. Free will doesn't describe your fate being sealed. Free will describes the fact that we CAN decide what the better descision is. Maybe your life is already mapped out from your birth; but that doesnt change the fact that there's either a right decision AND a wrong decision. Which one you choose is up to you; there is no intervention of another creature or thing or theory or whatever. The fact that we have the option between the two, rather than just 1 option, makes us have free will.

 

Conscious and rationality don't exist. The better decision is picked if we don't want to pick the worse one, because we know the consequences (or some other misc reason), or the wrong one is picked, because you are influenced into picking (or some other misc reason). Yes, WE MAKE THE CHOICE, but the choice we make was the one we were going to make because of how we have been influenced in the past, to think the way we do in the present, and how everything that happened before our birth caused us to inevitably be born, and grow, and learn, or not learn what we learn or don't learn, thus causing our rationality to be exactly what it is when we have to make said decision, and causing us to "choose" the one we will choose. Sure, we "could" have picked the other one if we were to get into the same situation, BUT we would not have. This applies for all choices, and all choices are inevitable, regardless of logic or reason.

 

The bolded statement makes it true that we DO have free will. If we make the choice, based on our prior knowledge, then we have created an act of free will. Even if what we do is pre-determined, the fact that we still chose it, based on our own knoledge of history or whatever, means we have free will. If there was only 1 option to everything there would be no free will. But seeing as there's allways 2 sides to every story; we have free will to choose which one we believe. Our entire personality is based off free will because we determine the differences between factual statements and things that are false.

 

So far the only thing you've really managed to explained is that there is cause and effect throughout time. Which really has nothing to do with free will anyway.

 

**off topic**

why does it say you're offline even though you are online?

[HelioSpark]

you're taking static's words out of context, read the rest of that sentence.

[Static]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

 

When you do that you have made yourself a zombie. You forsakened yourself to an entire life of helping out and being god. No there's nothing wrong with that' date=' but it does make you a zombie.

[/quote']

 

Marxist philosophy.

 

"The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him, but to the object."

 

But also.

 

"Every act and event is the inevitable result of prior acts and events and is independent of human will."

 

Quit being a half Marxist, we need more* whole ones.

This is why humans have free will:

 

Honey Bees constantly pollinate flowers and make honey with no other actions during the course of their life.

 

Humans have logic; making it possible for them to decide what the best decision is for them. Free will doesn't describe your fate being sealed. Free will describes the fact that we CAN decide what the better descision is. Maybe your life is already mapped out from your birth; but that doesnt change the fact that there's either a right decision AND a wrong decision. Which one you choose is up to you; there is no intervention of another creature or thing or theory or whatever. The fact that we have the option between the two, rather than just 1 option, makes us have free will.

 

Conscious and rationality don't exist. The better decision is picked if we don't want to pick the worse one, because we know the consequences (or some other misc reason), or the wrong one is picked, because you are influenced into picking (or some other misc reason). Yes, WE MAKE THE CHOICE, but the choice we make was the one we were going to make because of how we have been influenced in the past, to think the way we do in the present, and how everything that happened before our birth caused us to inevitably be born, and grow, and learn, or not learn what we learn or don't learn, thus causing our rationality to be exactly what it is when we have to make said decision, and causing us to "choose" the one we will choose. Sure, we "could" have picked the other one if we were to get into the same situation, BUT we would not have. This applies for all choices, and all choices are inevitable, regardless of logic or reason.

 

The bolded statement makes it true that we DO have free will. If we make the choice, based on our prior knowledge, then we have created an act of free will. Even if what we do is pre-determined, the fact that we still chose it, based on our own knoledge of history or whatever, means we have free will. If there was only 1 option to everything there would be no free will. But seeing as there's allways 2 sides to every story; we have free will to choose which one we believe. Our entire personality is based off free will because we determine the differences between factual statements and things that are false.

 

So far the only thing you've really managed to explained is that there is cause and effect throughout time. Which really has nothing to do with free will anyway.

 

**off topic**

why does it say you're offline even though you are online?

 

Stalkers. Everywhere.

 

Ok, the fact that we are presented with things that we can "Choose" to choose between the two different things means nothing.

 

I am standing above a man, a loaded pistol in his mouth, ready to blow his brains out. This man committed atrocious actions worthy of being killed in my eyes, but the fact of the matter is that, though I could choose to let him live, or kill him, my choice is a direct result of what I think, what I feel, and my rationality. No matter what, I am going to "choose" one of them, but the one I choose is pre determined.

 

Free will is not the ability to make "choices", its the ability to make "different choices". When presented with choices of which you can only pick one, the choice you will make, and the influences of that choice have already been pre determined.

 

That is the argument I am having. If you are trying to tell me that we can approach a situation differently because we can think, and thinking certain things would change what is going to happen, then you are wrong, because our thoughts are the results of whats going on in our brain, and what information our sensory nerves transmit to our brain.

[Willieh]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

 

When you do that you have made yourself a zombie. You forsakened yourself to an entire life of helping out and being god. No there's nothing wrong with that' date=' but it does make you a zombie.

[/quote']

 

Marxist philosophy.

 

"The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him, but to the object."

 

But also.

 

"Every act and event is the inevitable result of prior acts and events and is independent of human will."

 

Quit being a half Marxist, we need more* whole ones.

This is why humans have free will:

 

Honey Bees constantly pollinate flowers and make honey with no other actions during the course of their life.

 

Humans have logic; making it possible for them to decide what the best decision is for them. Free will doesn't describe your fate being sealed. Free will describes the fact that we CAN decide what the better descision is. Maybe your life is already mapped out from your birth; but that doesnt change the fact that there's either a right decision AND a wrong decision. Which one you choose is up to you; there is no intervention of another creature or thing or theory or whatever. The fact that we have the option between the two, rather than just 1 option, makes us have free will.

 

Conscious and rationality don't exist. The better decision is picked if we don't want to pick the worse one, because we know the consequences (or some other misc reason), or the wrong one is picked, because you are influenced into picking (or some other misc reason). Yes, WE MAKE THE CHOICE, but the choice we make was the one we were going to make because of how we have been influenced in the past, to think the way we do in the present, and how everything that happened before our birth caused us to inevitably be born, and grow, and learn, or not learn what we learn or don't learn, thus causing our rationality to be exactly what it is when we have to make said decision, and causing us to "choose" the one we will choose. Sure, we "could" have picked the other one if we were to get into the same situation, BUT we would not have. This applies for all choices, and all choices are inevitable, regardless of logic or reason.

 

The bolded statement makes it true that we DO have free will. If we make the choice, based on our prior knowledge, then we have created an act of free will. Even if what we do is pre-determined, the fact that we still chose it, based on our own knoledge of history or whatever, means we have free will. If there was only 1 option to everything there would be no free will. But seeing as there's allways 2 sides to every story; we have free will to choose which one we believe. Our entire personality is based off free will because we determine the differences between factual statements and things that are false.

 

So far the only thing you've really managed to explained is that there is cause and effect throughout time. Which really has nothing to do with free will anyway.

 

**off topic**

why does it say you're offline even though you are online?

 

Stalkers. Everywhere.

 

Ok, the fact that we are presented with things that we can "Choose" to choose between the two different things means nothing.

 

I am standing above a man, a loaded pistol in his mouth, ready to blow his brains out. This man committed atrocious actions worthy of being killed in my eyes, but the fact of the matter is that, though I could choose to let him live, or kill him, my choice is a direct result of what I think, what I feel, and my rationality. No matter what, I am going to "choose" one of them, but the one I choose is pre determined.

 

Free will is not the ability to make "choices", its the ability to make "different choices". When presented with choices of which you can only pick one, the choice you will make, and the influences of that choice have already been pre determined.

 

That is the argument I am having. If you are trying to tell me that we can approach a situation differently because we can think, and thinking certain things would change what is going to happen, then you are wrong, because our thoughts are the results of whats going on in our brain, and what information our sensory nerves transmit to our brain.

 

But what I'm trying to say is this...

You do prove a valid point. But even if what you say is true, the result is still going to be acted upon by free will.

 

Given the situation you just gave me; Whatever choice you choose is going to be the one that you think is the best one. Be it predetermined or whatever. And the only reason it can be predetermined is because of free will. It would only be predetermined because in your mind's eye it is the right decision to choose. What you say is true; sure our life is mapped out from birth. But without our own personal determination of what is right and what is wrong; there can be no predetermined outcomes.

[Static]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

 

When you do that you have made yourself a zombie. You forsakened yourself to an entire life of helping out and being god. No there's nothing wrong with that' date=' but it does make you a zombie.

[/quote']

 

Marxist philosophy.

 

"The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him, but to the object."

 

But also.

 

"Every act and event is the inevitable result of prior acts and events and is independent of human will."

 

Quit being a half Marxist, we need more* whole ones.

This is why humans have free will:

 

Honey Bees constantly pollinate flowers and make honey with no other actions during the course of their life.

 

Humans have logic; making it possible for them to decide what the best decision is for them. Free will doesn't describe your fate being sealed. Free will describes the fact that we CAN decide what the better descision is. Maybe your life is already mapped out from your birth; but that doesnt change the fact that there's either a right decision AND a wrong decision. Which one you choose is up to you; there is no intervention of another creature or thing or theory or whatever. The fact that we have the option between the two, rather than just 1 option, makes us have free will.

 

Conscious and rationality don't exist. The better decision is picked if we don't want to pick the worse one, because we know the consequences (or some other misc reason), or the wrong one is picked, because you are influenced into picking (or some other misc reason). Yes, WE MAKE THE CHOICE, but the choice we make was the one we were going to make because of how we have been influenced in the past, to think the way we do in the present, and how everything that happened before our birth caused us to inevitably be born, and grow, and learn, or not learn what we learn or don't learn, thus causing our rationality to be exactly what it is when we have to make said decision, and causing us to "choose" the one we will choose. Sure, we "could" have picked the other one if we were to get into the same situation, BUT we would not have. This applies for all choices, and all choices are inevitable, regardless of logic or reason.

 

The bolded statement makes it true that we DO have free will. If we make the choice, based on our prior knowledge, then we have created an act of free will. Even if what we do is pre-determined, the fact that we still chose it, based on our own knoledge of history or whatever, means we have free will. If there was only 1 option to everything there would be no free will. But seeing as there's allways 2 sides to every story; we have free will to choose which one we believe. Our entire personality is based off free will because we determine the differences between factual statements and things that are false.

 

So far the only thing you've really managed to explained is that there is cause and effect throughout time. Which really has nothing to do with free will anyway.

 

**off topic**

why does it say you're offline even though you are online?

 

Stalkers. Everywhere.

 

Ok, the fact that we are presented with things that we can "Choose" to choose between the two different things means nothing.

 

I am standing above a man, a loaded pistol in his mouth, ready to blow his brains out. This man committed atrocious actions worthy of being killed in my eyes, but the fact of the matter is that, though I could choose to let him live, or kill him, my choice is a direct result of what I think, what I feel, and my rationality. No matter what, I am going to "choose" one of them, but the one I choose is pre determined.

 

Free will is not the ability to make "choices", its the ability to make "different choices". When presented with choices of which you can only pick one, the choice you will make, and the influences of that choice have already been pre determined.

 

That is the argument I am having. If you are trying to tell me that we can approach a situation differently because we can think, and thinking certain things would change what is going to happen, then you are wrong, because our thoughts are the results of whats going on in our brain, and what information our sensory nerves transmit to our brain.

 

But what I'm trying to say is this...

You do prove a valid point. But even if what you say is true, the result is still going to be acted upon by free will.

 

Given the situation you just gave me; Whatever choice you choose is going to be the one that you think is the best one. Be it predetermined or whatever. And the only reason it can be predetermined is because of free will. It would only be predetermined because in your mind's eye it is the right decision to choose. What you say is true; sure our life is mapped out from birth. But without our own personal determination of what is right and what is wrong; there can be no predetermined outcomes.

 

This is also predetermined. Everything is. The Flood, Christs Birth, The Roman Empire, The Holocaust, The Crusades, George W Bush, and Willie Adler and all things associated, mapped out by the events prior. Your personal determination and morality is determined by what happens in life, it is all predetermined because you are influenced into believing everything you believe, or introduced to a belief and take it onto yourself, and that part of the past is what you claim gives you the ability to choose, but that was also predetermined. It is all predetermined, and that is the opposite of free will.

[Willieh]

following god does not constitute becoming a "zombie". you can follow god simply by living a good life and helping others less fortunate than yourself. there is nothing wrong with that.

 

When you do that you have made yourself a zombie. You forsakened yourself to an entire life of helping out and being god. No there's nothing wrong with that' date=' but it does make you a zombie.

[/quote']

 

Marxist philosophy.

 

"The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him, but to the object."

 

But also.

 

"Every act and event is the inevitable result of prior acts and events and is independent of human will."

 

Quit being a half Marxist, we need more* whole ones.

This is why humans have free will:

 

Honey Bees constantly pollinate flowers and make honey with no other actions during the course of their life.

 

Humans have logic; making it possible for them to decide what the best decision is for them. Free will doesn't describe your fate being sealed. Free will describes the fact that we CAN decide what the better descision is. Maybe your life is already mapped out from your birth; but that doesnt change the fact that there's either a right decision AND a wrong decision. Which one you choose is up to you; there is no intervention of another creature or thing or theory or whatever. The fact that we have the option between the two, rather than just 1 option, makes us have free will.

 

Conscious and rationality don't exist. The better decision is picked if we don't want to pick the worse one, because we know the consequences (or some other misc reason), or the wrong one is picked, because you are influenced into picking (or some other misc reason). Yes, WE MAKE THE CHOICE, but the choice we make was the one we were going to make because of how we have been influenced in the past, to think the way we do in the present, and how everything that happened before our birth caused us to inevitably be born, and grow, and learn, or not learn what we learn or don't learn, thus causing our rationality to be exactly what it is when we have to make said decision, and causing us to "choose" the one we will choose. Sure, we "could" have picked the other one if we were to get into the same situation, BUT we would not have. This applies for all choices, and all choices are inevitable, regardless of logic or reason.

 

The bolded statement makes it true that we DO have free will. If we make the choice, based on our prior knowledge, then we have created an act of free will. Even if what we do is pre-determined, the fact that we still chose it, based on our own knoledge of history or whatever, means we have free will. If there was only 1 option to everything there would be no free will. But seeing as there's allways 2 sides to every story; we have free will to choose which one we believe. Our entire personality is based off free will because we determine the differences between factual statements and things that are false.

 

So far the only thing you've really managed to explained is that there is cause and effect throughout time. Which really has nothing to do with free will anyway.

 

**off topic**

why does it say you're offline even though you are online?

 

Stalkers. Everywhere.

 

Ok, the fact that we are presented with things that we can "Choose" to choose between the two different things means nothing.

 

I am standing above a man, a loaded pistol in his mouth, ready to blow his brains out. This man committed atrocious actions worthy of being killed in my eyes, but the fact of the matter is that, though I could choose to let him live, or kill him, my choice is a direct result of what I think, what I feel, and my rationality. No matter what, I am going to "choose" one of them, but the one I choose is pre determined.

 

Free will is not the ability to make "choices", its the ability to make "different choices". When presented with choices of which you can only pick one, the choice you will make, and the influences of that choice have already been pre determined.

 

That is the argument I am having. If you are trying to tell me that we can approach a situation differently because we can think, and thinking certain things would change what is going to happen, then you are wrong, because our thoughts are the results of whats going on in our brain, and what information our sensory nerves transmit to our brain.

 

But what I'm trying to say is this...

You do prove a valid point. But even if what you say is true, the result is still going to be acted upon by free will.

 

Given the situation you just gave me; Whatever choice you choose is going to be the one that you think is the best one. Be it predetermined or whatever. And the only reason it can be predetermined is because of free will. It would only be predetermined because in your mind's eye it is the right decision to choose. What you say is true; sure our life is mapped out from birth. But without our own personal determination of what is right and what is wrong; there can be no predetermined outcomes.

 

This is also predetermined. Everything is. The Flood, Christs Birth, The Roman Empire, The Holocaust, The Crusades, George W Bush, and Willie Adler and all things associated, mapped out by the events prior. Your personal determination and morality is determined by what happens in life, it is all predetermined because you are influenced into believing everything you believe, or introduced to a belief and take it onto yourself, and that part of the past is what you claim gives you the ability to choose, but that was also predetermined. It is all predetermined, and that is the opposite of free will.

 

What you are saying is that every single thing that has ever happened is predetermined. But that's just a theory; no undeniable facts. And besides that, free will has nothing to do with something being predetermined. It's just an act of freeness (if that's a word?). We do have free will even if everything is predetermined. The fact that we make the choice is an act of free will. Be it predetermined or not. Animals have no choice, their lives are the same course of the same thing redundantly and over and over. Our lives has something different happen everyday, giving us free will.

 

Free Will:

Freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes.ill

[MarbleZone]

Free will is being discussed next door fellas. :P

 

But on that note, Static, when you say "That is the argument I am having. If you are trying to tell me that we can approach a situation differently because we can think, and thinking certain things would change what is going to happen, then you are wrong, because our thoughts are the results of whats going on in our brain, and what information our sensory nerves transmit to our brain", I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle. The fact that we can choose whether or not we kill the man, taking your example... is a restricted set of selections that stems from the situation at hand. We can either choose to "blow his head clean off" (...'kay, Clint Eastwood isn't making me sound convincing. :P) or let him live, and we are limited to those two choices because of the situation. And nothing really stops me from dancing the polka, then kicking the man into a coma instead, that would be a "different choice" in one way, but I'd still be leaving him alive, which was one of the two original possibilities.

Also, as you might know by now, I was brought up as a Christian; when faced with the situation above, am I pre-destined to let him live based on prior events, namely my education? "Rationality", "thoughts" and "feelings" are all involved in the process of choice, and even then I can just go "what the hell" and start constantly changing behavioural patterns for the heck of it, one day I can kick a friend between the legs and the next day buy him lunch... If I feel like it. "Free will" involves being able to choose between a number of options (kill the man, let him live or give birth to a horse are not in the same set of options because of the reality we live in), and if you don't choose based on your rationality and emotions, what would you choose based on? If there were no emotions in the process, then we'd be biological machines unable to choose. The concept of "free will" can only exist because of the realistic "limitations" of our species, saying that it does not exist because it is dependant on a series of factors is making the concept unable to exist in any other perspective; not having emotions and rationality would make everything boil down to instinct - we'd be irrational animals like all the others, and then we'd be unable to make choices. Knowing what the outcome of a choice will be is not another restriction of free will itself, after killing the man I can let myself get caught and go to jail or try to run away from the country and forge an identity. I'm aware of those outcomes, now I can either care about them or not

- they aren't necessarily restrictions to my choice.

 

And again... free will cannot be "absolute", you can't "choose" to turn your girlfriend into Jessica Simpson by snapping your fingers, because it's not a valid choice in this reality.

 

Maybe I interpreted your opinion completely wrong, but I think you're idealizing a concept of "free will" beyond any real possibilities, and the factors by which you say it does not exist are actually the ones that make it possible. ;)