Rescue Cat: Discussion

[Guest Star]

 

Hey, so yeah, let's semi-limit a card that's going to make a huge impact over here in the TCG as soon as Summon Priest is released over here. That's an extremely intelligent move.

 

There's no way this card can justically (is that even a word) be at 2. While I think it was better than leaving it at three, it's certainly not wise for Konami to continue to leave this card unbanned. The ability to get an automatic Goyo on your first turn is not good for the game.

 

This or Summon Priest needs to get banned. End of story.

[Tsuki ni Mau Majin]

I doubt this will be banned before Summon Priest. Let's see what others think. =/

[Καsτοr]

I doubt this will be banned before Summon Priest. Let's see what others think. =/

 

He is very right. Though a slight chance of the other way around. Its still what he said.

[Guest Star]

I doubt this will be banned before Summon Priest. Let's see what others think. =/

 

This, in my opinion, is one of the few cards that should be banned because of another card(s). In this situation, Ally of Justice Cyclone Creator and Neo-Spacian Dark Panther, two powerful (effect-wise) monsters, can be searched out incredibly easily with Rescue Cat, which can be searched out incredibly easily with Summon Priest. Cat Synchro would be the top Deck in the TCG if we had Summon Priest.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

I doubt this will be banned before Summon Priest. Let's see what others think. =/

 

This' date=' in my opinion, is one of the few cards that should be banned because of another card(s). In this situation, Ally of Justice Cyclone Creator and Neo-Spacian Dark Panther, two powerful (effect-wise) monsters, can be searched out incredibly easily with Rescue Cat, which can be searched out incredibly easily with Summon Priest. Cat Synchro would be the top Deck in the TCG if we had Summon Priest.

[/quote']

 

Why? X-Saber Airbellum and Ally of Justice Cyclone Creator aren't in TCG.

 

On-topic: All TCG and OCG asside, the culprit is Kitty, not Summon Priest. I believe we all had a discussion on it a while back, and we all eventually came to the same conclusion. Summon Priest just increases the likelihood of getting out Kitty on your first turn, while Rescue Cat actually does the busy work.

[Skuldur]

it's fine at 3 atm in the TCG there aren't any lvl 3 beast tuners out here.

[.:pyramid:.]

when X-Saber Airbellum is in tgc, the RSPCA will need to put this kitty down

[Azure]

 

Hey' date=' so yeah, let's semi-limit a card that's going to make a huge impact over here in the TCG as soon as Summon Priest is released over here. That's an [i']extremely[/i] intelligent move.

 

There's no way this card can justically (is that even a word) be at 2. While I think it was better than leaving it at three, it's certainly not wise for Konami to continue to leave this card unbanned. The ability to get an automatic Goyo on your first turn is not good for the game.

 

This or Summon Priest needs to get banned. End of story.

 

I agree now that synchro monsters are out this card is just unfair.

[werewolfjedi]

is it just me, or do a good amount of the cards with cats as the main monster on them pwn when used in a combo?

even cat's ear tribe when combo-ed with mist or heart makes an annoying defense that can't be attacked.

[Skuldur]

 

Hey' date=' so yeah, let's semi-limit a card that's going to make a huge impact over here in the TCG as soon as Summon Priest is released over here. That's an [i']extremely[/i] intelligent move.

 

There's no way this card can justically (is that even a word) be at 2. While I think it was better than leaving it at three, it's certainly not wise for Konami to continue to leave this card unbanned. The ability to get an automatic Goyo on your first turn is not good for the game.

 

This or Summon Priest needs to get banned. End of story.

 

I agree now that synchro monsters are out this card is just unfair.

 

yeah because there are so many beast tuners in the TCG

[CrabHelmet]

I think that a large part of the problem was Konami's handling of the Synchro Monsters themselves. They made it so that the Synchro Monsters at each level with the best effects also had the fewest restrictions. Thus, we have Stardust Dragon, Black Rose Dragon, and Goyou Guardian with no restrictions whatsoever on the Synchro Material Monsters, while other cards such as Dark End Dragon and Turbo Warrior have restrictive Summoning Conditions AND effects that are too weak to make the Summoning worthwhile in most cases. They should have made the generic ones weak and given the strongest effects to the Synchro Monsters that required some degree of deck dedication.

 

But I digress.

 

It seems clear that monsters with the ability to transform into 2800 ATK monsters with additional effects when used in the right deck are not necessarily banworthy simply by virtue of having this property. This card instantly transforms into any generic Synchro Monster from Levels 4 to 6 of the user's choice simply by virtue of being Normal Summoned, fills the graveyard, and is easy to recycle or search.

 

It also alters Summon Priest's effect to read "Discard 1 Spell Card from your hand. Special Summon 1 Synchro Monster from your Extra Deck. (This Special Summon is treated as a Synchro Summon.)" - an effect uncomfortably reminiscent of that of Cyber-Stein. Unlike Cyber-Stein, of course, this does not - yet - have any monsters large enough to use in an easy OTK, although it does have a wide toolbox of effects and reasonably high ATK available.

 

This card's one saving grace, however, is that it does require some degree of deck dedication. Were it completely splashable, I would be in favour of banning it immediately, but the fact that the deck needs a strong Beast infrastructure to support it makes me hesitant to send it down to the Forbidden list.

[Father Wolf]

I'm rescue cat coming to the rescue ( al rescate)

rescue cat coming to the rescue

I'm rescue cat i got your back

i can turn into a Stardust or goyo at that

a red arch a thought arch whatever you need

we can do it nothing to it

a rescue cat coming to the rescue ( al rescate)

rescue cat coming to the rescue

ahhhhhh rescue CAT!!

 

[/thread]

[Phantom Roxas]

This was Semi'd? Well, the TCG doesn't have Summon Priest, so I guess it's an okay move. However, we don't have many Beat Tuners, and since the majority of Beasts suck, I don't care if this is Semi'd or not, just not Limited.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

This card's one saving grace' date=' however, is that it does require some degree of deck dedication. Were it completely splashable, I would be in favour of banning it immediately, but the fact that the deck needs a strong Beast infrastructure to support it makes me hesitant to send it down to the Forbidden list.

[/quote']

 

Excellent argument! Now tell us your thoughts on Judgment Dragon.

[Lazer Yoshi]

No Beast Tuners, most Beats kinda stink. Belongs at Semi'd, for now.

[CrabHelmet]

This card's one saving grace' date=' however, is that it does require some degree of deck dedication. Were it completely splashable, I would be in favour of banning it immediately, but the fact that the deck needs a strong Beast infrastructure to support it makes me hesitant to send it down to the Forbidden list.

[/quote']

 

Excellent argument! Now tell us your thoughts on Judgment Dragon.

 

o i c wut u did thar

 

Requiring deck support does not inherently prove balance, but it is a form of cost. Judgment Dragoon happens to be incredibly broken enough that the cost is overridden by its incredible brokenness. In the case of Rescue Cat, this is at least somewhat more ambiguous.

 

Note also that the effect of the cost also depends on the quality of the other necessary cards. DAD's "cost" of running DARK monsters is laughable, considering what a broad range of cards this covers and how good said cards are. Judgment Dragoon's cost of running Lightlords is severely reduced by the fact that the Lightlords are themselves great - amongst other things, they have their own ROTA, their own D-Draw, their own Monarch, their own Cyber Dragon, their own Breaker, and their own Zombie Master, not to mention a built-in system of self-mill. On the other hand, Rainbow Dragon requires the extensive use of a singularly mediocre theme, a much larger cost. Rescue Cat doesn't have access to the Lightlords; instead, it is forced to run low-level Beasts, which aren't exactly of quite the same calibre.

 

The other factor is what Synchro Monsters are released in the long term. If more and more Synchro Monsters have relatively specific Synchro Material Monsters, then the Cyber-Stein-esque effect will be diluted; if, on the other hand, Konami releases more and more Synchro Monsters without such specifications and with good effects, then this card (and its combo with Summon Priest) will simply gain more and more power until the point where absolutely nobody but the most steadfast Pro-Traditionalists want to keep it legal. So to some extent, it depends on whether Konami is going to continue its trend of making generic Synchros with incredible effects, or whether it learned its lesson and is going to make the better Synchros actually come with strings attached.

 

The other factor that I hadn't taken into consideration is the /Buster monsters, but they're not really relevant here, since Rescue Cat is incompatible with the only good /Buster.

 

I'm still undecided at this point as to whether this thing is unacceptable for the game, but if we get any more good Synchro Monsters in Raging Battle that don't impose any specifications on the Synchro Material Monsters, it will be sufficient indication of the direction in which Konami is moving for me to be fully convinced.

 

Wait, I just remembered that Natural Beast exists. Hmmm...that alone might be sufficient to push Rescue Cat over the edge at this point, since it was already borderline before I remembered that it has the option of turning into a Horus. I think I might be inclined to say 0 now.

[Pharaoh_Atem]

Prove how this, but not Airbellun, is at fault.

[CrabHelmet]

Prove how this' date=' but not Airbellun, is at fault.

[/quote']

 

X-Saber Airbellum's effect and stats do not damage the game in any way. His only "crime" is that he's a Tuner that Rescue Cat can search. The problem lies not in any inherent property of the card but rather in the fact that Rescue Cat has the ability to take advantage of him. On the other hand, Rescue Cat will always have the potential to instantly Special Summon two Level 3 or lower Beast-Type monsters from the deck, regardless of whether Airbellum exists or not; Airbellum's existence merely gives Rescue Cat a target.

 

Essentially, we have a choice between prohibiting all Level 3 Beast-Type Tuner monsters out of hand, or prohibiting the card that causes them to be a problem in the first place. Even without X-Saber Airbellum, Rescue Cat is still a potential problem with cards not yet created; it simply doesn't currently have a card with which to work.

 

Furthermore, we have a situation where we can either kill X-Saber Airbellum to save Rescue Cat or kill Rescue Cat to save X-Saber Airbellum. However, we are dealing not only with X-Saber Airbellum but also with all low-level Beast-Type Tuners; X-Saber Airbellum simply happens to be the only card currently in the card pool that falls under this category. As long as Rescue Cat is legal, all such cards need to be banned. Over an infinite amount of time, as the size of the card pool approaches infinity, the probability of a second such monster being released approaches certainty; hence, in the long run, eliminating Rescue Cat will require the elimination of fewer cards from the card pool. This is comparable to the Phantom of Chaos versus Destiny Hero - Plasma situation; one interacts unacceptably with an entire category of cards, while the other only interacts unacceptably with a single cards, so even though that category may currently only contain one card, the better choice is to eliminate Rescue Cat. The instant we get a second Level 3 Beast-Type Tuner, banning Rescue Cat becomes even more obviously the proper move, as we would then be banning one card to save two, rather than banning two cards to save one.

[Pharaoh_Atem]

Prove how this' date=' but not Airbellun, is at fault.

[/quote']

 

Essentially, we have a choice between prohibiting all Level 3 Beast-Type Tuner monsters out of hand, or prohibiting the card that causes them to be a problem in the first place. Even without X-Saber Airbellum, Rescue Cat is still a potential problem with cards not yet created; it simply doesn't currently have a card with which to work.

 

Furthermore, we have a situation where we can either kill X-Saber Airbellum to save Rescue Cat or kill Rescue Cat to save X-Saber Airbellum. However, we are dealing not only with X-Saber Airbellum but also with all low-level Beast-Type Tuners; X-Saber Airbellum simply happens to be the only card currently in the card pool that falls under this category. As long as Rescue Cat is legal, all such cards need to be banned. Over an infinite amount of time, as the size of the card pool approaches infinity, the probability of a second such monster being released approaches certainty; hence, in the long run, eliminating Rescue Cat will require the elimination of fewer cards from the card pool. This is comparable to the Phantom of Chaos versus Destiny Hero - Plasma situation; one interacts unacceptably with an entire category of cards, while the other only interacts unacceptably with a single cards, so even though that category may currently only contain one card, the better choice is to eliminate Rescue Cat. The instant we get a second Level 3 Beast-Type Tuner, banning Rescue Cat becomes even more obviously the proper move, as we would then be banning one card to save two, rather than banning two cards to save one.

 

Your logic is a derivative of what I taught you myself, as proven by what I taught you in regards to Plasma v. Phantom; good to see that you didn't learn the real lesson behind it.

 

The logic is innately flawed with your use, because you rely solely upon hypotheticals, whereas my previous use concerning Phantom relied upon hypotheticals and present cards.

 

Every card in this game has that same innate risk - yes, even the trash from 1999 that no one uses. It is just as likely for Konami to make a card that forces our hand on the Plasma issue... as it is for Konami to make a card that forces our hand on the Phantom issue.

 

The same extends to Cat's matter. It is just as likely for Cat w/o Airbellun to become a problem... as it is for Airbellun w/o Cat to become a problem.

 

Considering the two put together, we see that there IS a problem, but one where both cards are completely codependent.

 

For Cat itself to be guaranteed as equivalent to a Synchro, Cat needs to be able to search a Tuner that can Tune to the other monster. There is no need to prohibit all Level 3 Beast-Type Tuners, but just ones that can Tune to whatever else Cat summons, if your only complaint with Cat is "Cat = Lv_ to Lv6 Synchro".

 

If you have other complaints with Cat, you've done a terrible job of constructing them in this thread, as they're not even readily seen in this thread.

 

As of yet, you have proven nothing more than the need to punish either card of the two. Anyone worth speaking to about this matter... realizes that "Cat = Lv_ to Lv6 Synchro" is bad for the game... so you've done nothing useful.

[Pharaoh_Atem]

Well?

 

Come now, you were all SO resolute about Cat before I came in here.

[CrabHelmet]

It is just as likely for Cat w/o Airbellun to become a problem... as it is for Airbellun w/o Cat to become a problem.

 

Rescue Cat without Airbellum becomes a problem if any Level 3 Beast-Type Tuner is released that does not come with a restrictive effect akin to that of Debris Dragon.

 

Airbellum without Rescue Cat becomes a problem if any card is released that instantly places Airbellum and another Level 1 to 3 monster on the field without requiring any significant cost or setup.

 

The former case seems significantly more probable than the latter.

 

The same applies to the Phantom versus Plasma case. Phantom without Plasma becomes a problem if any monster is released that' date=' like Plasma, is balanced by its Summon Condition or other conditions necessary to use its effect that Phantom can bypass. Plasma without Phantom becomes a problem if any monster is released that has the ability to copy its effect while bypassing the inherent cost included in Plasma's Summon Condition.

 

For Cat itself to be guaranteed as equivalent to a Synchro, Cat needs to be able to search a Tuner that can Tune to the other monster. There is no need to prohibit all Level 3 Beast-Type Tuners, but just ones that can Tune to whatever else Cat summons, if your only complaint with Cat is "Cat = Lv_ to Lv6 Synchro".

 

In other words, all Level 3 Beast-Type Tuners should have restrictive effects like that of Debris Dragon in order to prevent Rescue Cat abuse?

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Right now, there aren't any Synchros that Kitty can bring out that warrant any action on any part of the combo. If and when a Synchro is released that can be abused to the extent that it would require list action, don't you think it might just be the Synchro itself that would need dealing with?

[CrabHelmet]

Right now' date=' there aren't any Synchros that Kitty can bring out that warrant any action on any part of the combo. If and when a Synchro is released that can be abused to the extent that it would require list action, don't you think it might just be the Synchro itself that would need dealing with?

[/quote']

 

Would you then suggest that ban all powerful Fusion Monsters in order to have Cyber-Stein legal?

 

Advanced Ritual Art and Metamorphosis are acceptable subversions of the regular summoning requirements because said requirements were ill-conceived from the start - they aren't worth the cost, and thus all monsters these cards cover would have de facto bans otherwise. Synchro Monsters, on the other hand, do not have the handicap of a ludicrously unplayable summoning condition.

[ice godess nakyu]

This was Semi'd? Well' date=' the TCG doesn't have Summon Priest, so I guess it's an okay move. However, we don't have many Beat Tuners, and since the majority of Beasts suck, I don't care if this is Semi'd or not, just not Limited.

[/quote']

 

we may be getting it soon if the tcg dosnt rape the new spellcaster deck

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Right now' date=' there aren't any Synchros that Kitty can bring out that warrant any action on any part of the combo. If and when a Synchro is released that can be abused to the extent that it would require list action, don't you think it might just be the Synchro itself that would need dealing with?

[/quote']

 

Would you then suggest that ban all powerful Fusion Monsters in order to have Cyber-Stein legal?

 

Advanced Ritual Art and Metamorphosis are acceptable subversions of the regular summoning requirements because said requirements were ill-conceived from the start - they aren't worth the cost, and thus all monsters these cards cover would have de facto bans otherwise. Synchro Monsters, on the other hand, do not have the handicap of a ludicrously unplayable summoning condition.

 

No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm merely saying that, since it isn't a problem yet, we can't assume that it will be Kitty/X-Saber/Summon Priest that needs dealing with. The Synchro monster that finally breaks the camel's back might be broken even without the combo.