Tragoedia [DISC]

[Guest Star]

Furthermore' date=' seein' a particular card ran at 3 in many builds doesn't necessarily mean it's broken.

[/quote']

 

Broken/Really damn good

 

No. All the best decks in the format chose to use a bad card on purpose.[/sarcasm]

 

Mali at 3 in TeleDAD. Mali is really damn good. D-Draw at 3, D-Draw is really damn good. E-Tele/Krebs at 3, both are really damn good.

Hopefully common sense kicks in about now.

 

Wait a second.

 

Krebons is not good. It's only run because it's a Level 2 Tuner that can be Special Summoned by the effect of Emergency Teleport, a card that is essential to Tele-DaD.

[Lazer Yoshi]

Awesome card.

DARK, Fiend, gets good attack, and can take over Opponent's cards. Also great in Synchro.

No bad Things about it. :D

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

This card is not broken, nor is it banworthy. It's just a good card. Why can't we have good cards not being shouted down as being banworthy?

[The Dark One]

This card is not broken' date=' nor is it banworthy. It's just a good card. Why can't we have good cards not being shouted down as being banworthy?

[/quote']

 

Refute my arguments before you refute my statements please.

[Tabris]

To The Dark One:

 

Thank you for being patient so far.

 

Firstly, I'd like to throw out there that the limitation of the usefulness of an effect to the early game does not prevent that effect from being banworthy. Is it fair to be able to throw out a hugely sized beatstick simply because you took damage? Unless you also support the case that Gorz should remain legal, I think you would agree that this is unacceptable. (Admittedly, there are other factors regarding Gorz, including the fact that he is an inherent +1, and forces your opponent to deal with two monsters rather than one.)

 

There's a difference between Gorz and Tragoedia. A slight one, but still.

 

Gorz needs a clear field before it can be summoned in its own volition through either an attack or burn. Note, however, that it is rather easy to clear your own field during various stages in a Duel, which makes Gorz a really potent threat. Your prickin' at your opponent's LP is rewarded by a consequent burn at your behalf (rarely used outside the endgame with Burn variants, or so I have seen) and Gorz itself; OR (the really scary part) the Token and Gorz itself. Those, not to mention the fact that Gorz' stats are a steady 2700/1500. To me, THAT screams banworthy.

 

Tragoedia's effect, while similar in that it comes screamin' fit after Battle Damage is inflicted, and better in that it doesn't require an empty field (and I've used it in mine Begone, Knave! build with to win and rainbows), has an Achilles heel: its ever shiftin' stats. Of course, if one is impudent enough to inflict Battle Damage while his opponent has Tragoedia AND 4-5 other cards, he is rewarded with a 2400/2400-3000/3000 monster breathin' down his neck, which, as a matter of fact, could be easily thwarted by not attackin', by focusin' on buildin' your own field durin' the first few turns, such that your opponent (the one bearin' Tragoedia) is forced to commit to the field in hot pursuit.

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Now, if we judge this to be unacceptable, than we must make the decision that it should never happen in a game. Therefore, even if the effect is only useful in the early game, it should be dealt with. Now, Trap Dustshoot proves that it is possible for a card to have a banworthy effect while still only being useful in the early game. So I must ask you, do you think Trap Dustshoot should remain untouched? That card is even more dependent on the time of game than this card, because you can purposely conserve your hand but you cannot do the same with your opponent's hand.

 

I say otherwise.

 

Have a card, with 0 ATK/DEF, with an effect similar to Tragoedia, without the stat boost. Is it banworthy?

 

That aside: playtestin' on the 3-0 format that I've espoused in mine locale so far has proved Trap Dustshoot, and all combos with the card, suck eggs. That said, I still lie on the edge whether to ban Trap Dustshoot OR not.

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Also, again I'll state that Tragoedia's Brain Control effect is still unacceptable ONLY because it is reusable. If there was a level 4 monster that had 1800 ATK and the effect -Once during the game, you may discard a monster from your hand to take control of a monster on your opponent's side of the field of equal level until the end of the turn- I would probably judge it to be acceptable, though I do think it would still see some play. (Or at least it definitely would in a good format) However, it is the fact that this effect is reusable, combined with the fact taht it is stacked on top of a broken Special Sumon effect and a not broken but definitely decent Synchro-useful effect that make all of this a problem.

 

You didn't allude so such, Dark One, or at least as I remember it.

 

Anyhow, the card you've given as an example stinks, at least due to its insistence on activatin' its effect once during a Duel.

 

Seein' the Brain Control-ish effect in a separate perspective (not least because Tragoedia's multiple effects don't really mesh all that well), the fact that it is reusable doesn't detract from the fact that to gain control of a certain monster, you MUST discard a monster with the exact Level of the monster you are to gain control over, at least till the End Phase. Of course, you might have the monster with the right Level to gain control of your opponent's monster, but what if you didn't? What if your opponent has a LV3, and you've LV2s and LV4s, the only LV3 left exposed on the field? What if your opponent has a LV4, and you've topdecked with a dead Spell? What if your opponent has a LV8 monster, and the only LV8 monster that you have is one that you'd rather NOT discard for Tragoedia's effect (note that I've never bumped into this)?

[The Dark One]

There's a difference between Gorz and Tragoedia. A slight one, but still.

 

Gorz needs a clear field before it can be summoned in its own volition through either an attack or burn. Note, however, that it is rather easy to clear your own field during various stages in a Duel, which makes Gorz a really potent threat. Your prickin' at your opponent's LP is rewarded by a consequent burn at your behalf (rarely used outside the endgame with Burn variants, or so I have seen) and Gorz itself; OR (the really scary part) the Token and Gorz itself. Those, not to mention the fact that Gorz' stats are a steady 2700/1500. To me, THAT screams banworthy.

 

So you're saying that the fact that his stats cannot shift is really the only thing that matters here?

 

Tragoedia's effect, while similar in that it comes screamin' fit after Battle Damage is inflicted, and better in that it doesn't require an empty field (and I've used it in mine Begone, Knave! build with to win and rainbows), has an Achilles heel: its ever shiftin' stats. Of course, if one is impudent enough to inflict Battle Damage while his opponent has Tragoedia AND 4-5 other cards, he is rewarded with a 2400/2400-3000/3000 monster breathin' down his neck, which, as a matter of fact, could be easily thwarted by not attackin', by focusin' on buildin' your own field durin' the first few turns, such that your opponent (the one bearin' Tragoedia) is forced to commit to the field in hot pursuit.

 

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that you would not attack at all, and thus prevent him from even possibly dropping to the field? Or are you saying that you will try to force your opponent to play more cards after he's been summoned to decrease his attack? Because in my book, the very concept that you're no longer allowed to attack in the early game is horrendously problematic. If you can make the first turn pass with impunity, knowing that your opponent will fear either Gorz or 1 of 3 Tragoedia, than you can basically begin the game when you draw every card you need to win. The very knowledge of this possibility is what will prevent your opponent from committing extensively, because he or she will want to maintain his or her hand size as well, so that your opponent's own Tragoedia can counter your push for game. This slows the game to a crawl, with both players never letting their potential Tragoedias drop to a low ATK, and never attacking except in small pushes, and then only when they have a piece of removal on hand to get rid of whatever may come of the attack. I'm not saying that a slower format is a bad thing, but I'm not sure I want it to be forced on the format by a card that single-handedly changes the way every competitive duelist must play.

 

Have a card, with 0 ATK/DEF, with an effect similar to Tragoedia, without the stat boost. Is it banworthy?

 

No, it would no be; that's the point though. Tragoedia in a successfully simplified late-game is no longer a problem card, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a problem card when things are still rather complex. And, of course, part of my fear is that the game will rarely be simplified to the point where Tragoedia is no longer a problem, simply because of the fact that, as I said, the players each fear what could occur if they try to push, and want to protect themselves from an opponent's push.

 

That aside: playtestin' on the 3-0 format that I've espoused in mine locale so far has proved Trap Dustshoot, and all combos with the card, suck eggs. That said, I still lie on the edge whether to ban Trap Dustshoot OR not.

 

In this format, Trap Dustshoot just isn't the best use of space. (This is not because i isn't good this format, there are just so many other good cards fighting for space that it is just not the best choice available.) However, if we were to revert to a good format, I'm fairly certain you would find the prospect of an unlimitet Trap Dustshoot to be rather daunting, even forgetting possible combos. I find that nearly every time Dustshoot is activated upon me, my strategies, at least for that turn, are completely destroyed. Similarly, my opponents' hands are often rendered completely useless after the dustshoot.

 

You didn't allude so such, Dark One, or at least as I remember it.

 

Anyhow, the card you've given as an example stinks, at least due to its insistence on activatin' its effect once during a Duel.

 

Perhaps I didn't properly elaborate the first time around. I apologize.

 

Also, I don't think the card I created would stink at all. You would, of course, only run 1 and use it as a tech card. Assuming it was dark it could be used with Allure. etc. etc. However, if you like, even if the text read once while it was face up on the field, it would be fine.

 

Seein' the Brain Control-ish effect in a separate perspective (not least because Tragoedia's multiple effects don't really mesh all that well), the fact that it is reusable doesn't detract from the fact that to gain control of a certain monster, you MUST discard a monster with the exact Level of the monster you are to gain control over, at least till the End Phase. Of course, you might have the monster with the right Level to gain control of your opponent's monster, but what if you didn't? What if your opponent has a LV3, and you've LV2s and LV4s, the only LV3 left exposed on the field? What if your opponent has a LV4, and you've topdecked with a dead Spell? What if your opponent has a LV8 monster, and the only LV8 monster that you have is one that you'd rather NOT discard for Tragoedia's effect (note that I've never bumped into this)?

 

 

I'm not really understanding why you keep talking about the times that the Brain Control effect will not be useful. Of course, there will be plenty of times that it isn't going to work, but there will probably be more times that you will have that option if you choose. Actually, TeleDAD runs quite a few level 3 monsters, but then if you're also runing TeleDAD, you will b running plenty as well.

 

I know, the effect wouldn't be as good as it would have been if it read "Once per turn, pay 800 Life Points to take control..." but it's still certainly a very potent effect.

 

And the Synchroing effect is not to be diminished either. Obviously, it's not as good as Malicious's own effect, but it does serve as another way to get out a Synchro monster on top of the two level 8s that TeleDAD limits itself to per duel. Not to mention, it's an easy way to get rid of Tragoedia if you don't have much of a hand.

[Tabris]

So you're saying that the fact that his stats cannot shift is really the only thing that matters here?

 

No, not totally, though being a solid 2700/1500 Fiend reaps dividends: lose some LP due to Ceasefire or Magic Cylinder or whatever burner you like, and funk your opponent accordingly through a 2700 attacker AND some burn. Get attacked directly, and a 2700 genie AND a Token pops up. Topdeck, and you'd still get Gorz and whatever sheet you decide to throw to your opponent.

 

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that you would not attack at all, and thus prevent him from even possibly dropping to the field? Or are you saying that you will try to force your opponent to play more cards after he's been summoned to decrease his attack?

 

Second one is gold.

 

Because in my book, the very concept that you're no longer allowed to attack in the early game is horrendously problematic. If you can make the first turn pass with impunity, knowing that your opponent will fear either Gorz or 1 of 3 Tragoedia, than you can basically begin the game when you draw every card you need to win. The very knowledge of this possibility is what will prevent your opponent from committing extensively, because he or she will want to maintain his or her hand size as well, so that your opponent's own Tragoedia can counter your push for game. This slows the game to a crawl, with both players never letting their potential Tragoedias drop to a low ATK, and never attacking except in small pushes, and then only when they have a piece of removal on hand to get rid of whatever may come of the attack.

 

Positin', of course, that Tragoedias will be mained everywhere. Problem is, this, unlike Gorz, is restricted to ultraconservative control decks.

 

In this format, Trap Dustshoot just isn't the best use of space. (This is not because i isn't good this format, there are just so many other good cards fighting for space that it is just not the best choice available.) However, if we were to revert to a good format, I'm fairly certain you would find the prospect of an unlimited Trap Dustshoot to be rather daunting, even forgetting possible combos. I find that nearly every time Dustshoot is activated upon me, my strategies, at least for that turn, are completely destroyed. Similarly, my opponents' hands are often rendered completely useless after the dustshoot.

 

Mine own playtestin', under the auspices of a 3-0 format (one that kindles memories of a "good format"), suggests otherwise, but a discussion on Dustshoot isn't exactly appropriate for the thread.

 

I'm not really understanding why you keep talking about the times that the Brain Control effect will not be useful. Of course, there will be plenty of times that it isn't going to work, but there will probably be more times that you will have that option if you choose. Actually, TeleDAD runs quite a few level 3 monsters, but then if you're also runing TeleDAD, you will b running plenty as well.

 

Positin', of course, that the world is beautiful and all, and targets for Tragoedia's monster-grabbin' effect are as plentiful as oxygen (mirror matches, anyone?). Reality - both this metagame and all 3-0 metagames - concur with when I say usin' Tragoedia's effect is like findin' a needle in the proverbial haystack.