This is awesome.

[~Emo~]

' pid='2520598' dateline='1247075682']

Saying God gave us our abilities is an irrational' date=' ignorant sky hook.

 

Evolution by adaptation is a much more logical approach to the question.

 

 

 

And, no, I don't think it was Crab. He would have posted something before closing it.

[/quote']

 

True, more than likely it was darth.

[HORUS]

Yeah, I would consider rejecting obvious fact to be a mark of you being less knowledgeable. If I said to someone, "The Grand Canyon was carved out by water after millions of years, as evidenced by sediment deposits and lines in the canyon walls," and they say, "Nah, man. Xenu carved it out with a funking laser," then that's completely illogical and shows they are much less knowledgeable. So if I say, "Monkeys evolved into humans through millions of years of adaptation, as evidenced by the similarities in our bone structure's and cognitive functions and also by similarities in the bone structures found in ape and early human fossils," and you say, "No way dude. An invisible man who exists outside of space and time just put us on the earth 6000 years ago. Oh, and the fossils are just here to test us," then that's just plain obvious evidence of your illogical thought process and lack of knowledge.

[~Emo~]

Polar bears prove horus's post.

 

And if you are smart you will see what I mean.

[OMGAKITTY]

' pid='2520687' dateline='1247076234']

Yeah' date=' I would consider rejecting obvious fact to be a mark of you being less knowledgeable. If I said to someone, "The Grand Canyon was carved out by water after millions of years, as evidenced by sediment deposits and lines in the canyon walls," and they say, "Nah, man. Xenu carved it out with a f***ing laser," then that's completely illogical and shows they are much less knowledgeable. So if I say, "Monkeys evolved into humans through millions of years of adaptation, as evidenced by the similarities in our bone structure's and cognitive functions and also by similarities in the bone structures found in ape and early human fossils," and you say, "No way dude. An invisible man who exists outside of space and time just put us on the earth 6000 years ago. Oh, and the fossils are just here to test us," then that's just plain obvious evidence of your illogical thought process and lack of knowledge.

[/quote']

 

Most Christians don't take a fundamentalist view on the Bible anymore...

Evolution is impossible to deny. However, Evolution's existence =/= God's non-existence.

[Dark]

The way I see it, denying a fact proves your idiocy. Everyone is fine with having beliefs, and fine with other people having beliefs, but you show respect the facts. The reason atheists are fighting God-believers is because, they know, if we (atheists) show you God-believers an infinite amount of information that disproves God's existant, your first reaction and subsequent reactions will not listen to the fact, and you will continue listening to your opinion.

 

In simpler terms:

 

I drop an XBOX from a 30 story building. I then make a statement saying "Some outer force is pushing or pulling every object to the core of the Earth." And I prove it by dropping an infinite amount of objects varying in mass, size and shape. I have given you the fact, but you choose not to believe it, even though you have no explanation why the objects fall.

 

EDIT: @ OMGAKITTY: Evolution IS undeniable. But the Bible states that God created mankind. If the Bible is wrong about that, who is to say the Bible is not wrong about everything else?

[Guest]

The following is very heavily based on a true story. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

 

My brother Matt and I were in the entrance hall of a large house belonging to our grandfather, and our host's butler told us that the host was waiting for us in the room at the top of the stairs, and handed us the key. Matt threw the butler on the ground, knocked him out, picked him up, ran up the stairs carrying him, and started slamming him into the locked door. Eventually, the door broke open. Matt dropped the butler, strode into the room, produced a pistol from his pocket, and shot our grandfather in the face, killing him.

 

What I didn't know was that Matt was actually an FBI agent who had discovered that our grandfather had been kidnapped by communist ninjas and replaced by a lookalike, and that the door was booby-trapped so that using the key on it would cause a bomb to go off, killing whoever was trying to enter - so he had used the butler as a convenient battering device. To me, it seemed horrible and irrational, but to Matt, it made perfect sense.

 

The moral of this poorly-constructed story is that two perfectly logical beings using the same system of logic can arrive at different conclusions if they have different premises. Matt's premise was that there was a bomb and the grandfather was an evil lookalike, whereas my premise was that my grandfather was behind a door and everything was fine. The same can be applied elsewhere; if God is omniscient, then he obviously knows things that we don't, giving him different premises and thus different conclusions.

 

You also need to factor in goals. Being omniscient, omnipotent, immortal, perfect, and so on, God has no inherent goals (unlike humans, where "survive and reproduce" function at least as a default), which means that God can do pretty much whatever God feels like doing, without needing to try to accomplish anything unless God wants to do so. Thus, an action might seem illogical if you make assumptions about God's goals, but might make sense knowing God's true motivations.

 

 

Also, I didn't lock it.

[Dad]

' pid='2520687' dateline='1247076234']

Yeah' date=' I would consider rejecting obvious fact to be a mark of you being less knowledgeable. If I said to someone, "The Grand Canyon was carved out by water after millions of years, as evidenced by sediment deposits and lines in the canyon walls," and they say, "Nah, man. Xenu carved it out with a f***ing laser," then that's completely illogical and shows they are much less knowledgeable. So if I say, "Monkeys evolved into humans through millions of years of adaptation, as evidenced by the similarities in our bone structure's and cognitive functions and also by similarities in the bone structures found in ape and early human fossils," and you say, "No way dude. An invisible man who exists outside of space and time just put us on the earth 6000 years ago. Oh, and the fossils are just here to test us," then that's just plain obvious evidence of your illogical thought process and lack of knowledge.

[/quote']

 

Most Christians don't take a fundamentalist view on the Bible anymore...

Evolution is impossible to deny. However, Evolution's existence =/= God's non-existence.

 

That's the point I was trying to make, but Horus was being unreasonable.

 

Nonetheless, I'm not denying the fact that the Grand canyon's creation and human evolution was not possible. I'm simply standing by my belief.

 

EDIT: Damn it Crab. >.>

[~Emo~]

' pid='2520687' dateline='1247076234']

Yeah' date=' I would consider rejecting obvious fact to be a mark of you being less knowledgeable. If I said to someone, "The Grand Canyon was carved out by water after millions of years, as evidenced by sediment deposits and lines in the canyon walls," and they say, "Nah, man. Xenu carved it out with a f***ing laser," then that's completely illogical and shows they are much less knowledgeable. So if I say, "Monkeys evolved into humans through millions of years of adaptation, as evidenced by the similarities in our bone structure's and cognitive functions and also by similarities in the bone structures found in ape and early human fossils," and you say, "No way dude. An invisible man who exists outside of space and time just put us on the earth 6000 years ago. Oh, and the fossils are just here to test us," then that's just plain obvious evidence of your illogical thought process and lack of knowledge.

[/quote']

 

Most Christians don't take a fundamentalist view on the Bible anymore...

Evolution is impossible to deny. However, Evolution's existence =/= God's non-existence.

 

That's the point I was trying to make, but Horus was being unreasonable.

 

Nonetheless, I'm not denying the fact that the Grand canyon's creation and human evolution was not possible. I'm simply standing by my belief.

 

Or perhaps the almighty Horus is going to convince me or force me otherwise?

 

Polar bears.

[Dark]

The following is very heavily based on a true story. Any resemblance to actual persons' date=' living or dead, is purely coincidental.[/i']

 

My brother Matt and I were in the entrance hall of a large house belonging to our grandfather, and our host's butler told us that the host was waiting for us in the room at the top of the stairs, and handed us the key. Matt threw the butler on the ground, knocked him out, picked him up, ran up the stairs carrying him, and started slamming him into the locked door. Eventually, the door broke open. Matt dropped the butler, strode into the room, produced a pistol from his pocket, and shot our grandfather in the face, killing him.

 

What I didn't know was that Matt was actually an FBI agent who had discovered that our grandfather had been kidnapped by communist ninjas and replaced by a lookalike, and that the door was booby-trapped so that using the key on it would cause a bomb to go off, killing whoever was trying to enter - so he had used the butler as a convenient battering device. To me, it seemed horrible and irrational, but to Matt, it made perfect sense.

 

The moral of this poorly-constructed story is that two perfectly logical beings using the same system of logic can arrive at different conclusions if they have different premises. Matt's premise was that there was a bomb and the grandfather was an evil lookalike, whereas my premise was that my grandfather was behind a door and everything was fine. The same can be applied elsewhere; if God is omniscient, then he obviously knows things that we don't, giving him different premises and thus different conclusions.

 

You also need to factor in goals. Being omniscient, omnipotent, immortal, perfect, and so on, God has no inherent goals (unlike humans, where "survive and reproduce" function at least as a default), which means that God can do pretty much whatever God feels like doing, without needing to try to accomplish anything unless God wants to do so. Thus, an action might seem illogical if you make assumptions about God's goals, but might make sense knowing God's true motivations.

 

 

Also, I didn't lock it.

 

The problem with your story:

 

Neither you nor Matt know who is correct (in the sense of if the grandfather is real or not). Because you didn't use the key, you don't know if there was a bomb in the door. Because you didn't get to speak to the "grandfather", you don't know if he was real or not. Matt knew different things than you did, but that is not necessarily saying he knew the correct things. For all we know, you could have been correct, and Matt was being paranoid and killed his own grandfather.

[Man0waR]

they obviously like god and will do anything in their power to make sure god rules the universe. So they lock all threads that oppose them 0=

[Dad]

We should all just praise the monkeys and polar bears that raised us.

[OMGAKITTY]

 

EDIT: @ OMGAKITTY: Evolution IS undeniable. But the Bible states that God created mankind. If the Bible is wrong about that' date=' who is to say the Bible is not wrong about everything else?

[/quote']

 

When did I say God didn't create mankind? Creation doesn't mean we simply poofed out of nothing. Its possible that God created us through evolution.

 

And even with evolution being undeniable, that doesn't necessarily prove that everything evolved from a single celled-organism.

[~Emo~]

We should all just praise the monkeys and polar bears that raised us.

 

Polar bears are evolved versions of grizzly bears and that has been proven so yus.

[Dark]

 

EDIT: @ OMGAKITTY: Evolution IS undeniable. But the Bible states that God created mankind. If the Bible is wrong about that' date=' who is to say the Bible is not wrong about everything else?

[/quote']

 

When did I say God didn't create mankind? Creation doesn't mean we simply poofed out of nothing. Its possible that God created us through evolution.

 

And even with evolution being undeniable, that doesn't necessarily prove that everything evolved from a single celled-organism.

 

The Bible states God created mankind. The Bible has not a word about evolutionism.

 

And yet, it is undeniable that we evolved from something.

 

When you hear the words "created mankind", you think of Adam and Eve, not created evolution.

[Guest]

The problem with your story:

 

Neither you nor Matt know who is correct (in the sense of if the grandfather is real or not). Because you didn't use the key' date=' you don't know if there was a bomb in the door. Because you didn't get to speak to the "grandfather", you don't know if he was real or not. Matt knew different things than you did, but that is not necessarily saying he knew the correct things. For all we know, you could have been correct, and Matt was being paranoid and killed his own grandfather.

[/quote']

 

And who was wrong?

And who was RIGHT? (right? right?)

It didn't matter in the thick of the fight...

 

Indeed. Perhaps I was right and he was wrong. Either way, two people using the same system of logic arrived at different conclusions due to having different premises; which one was mistaken was irrelevant. It doesn't even matter if the grandfather was real but the butler was a space alien; what matters is that the same system of rationality produces different outputs given different inputs.

 

In any event, the case of which one had the wrong inputs is irrelevant to the God debate; since one of this God's defined properties is that of omniscience, it can be presumed that God's premises are always in accordance with reality.

[Dad]

We came from dust technically, because of said Big Bang. But where did all that combustible stuff come from? Nothingness? How the hell is that possible? >.

[OMGAKITTY]

We should all just praise the monkeys and polar bears that raised us.

 

Polar bears are evolved versions of grizzly bears and that has been proven so yus.

 

No funking sheet evolution exists. We've established that already. Now unless you're going somewhere with this polar bear fetish, shut up about it already.

[Dark]

@ Crab: I get it now.

 

We came from dust technically' date=' because of said Big Bang. But where did all that combustible stuff come from? Nothingness? How the hell is that possible? >.<

[/quote']

 

No, the Big Bang is fake. Instead, an invisble diety up there or down there or sideways there used his big hand of magic and created the sun, the 9 planets, and everything else that exists in the universe, only kept life on one planet, and wants everyone to believe in him even though we cannot prove his existance. Because that makes so much sense. [/sar]

[~Emo~]

We should all just praise the monkeys and polar bears that raised us.

 

Polar bears are evolved versions of grizzly bears and that has been proven so yus.

 

No f***ing s*** evolution exists. We've established that already. Now unless you're going somewhere with this polar bear fetish' date=' shut up about it already.

[/quote']

 

If a poplar bear con evolve in a couple hundred years what makes diff that apes con evolve into humans over a million years?

[Dark]

We should all just praise the monkeys and polar bears that raised us.

 

Polar bears are evolved versions of grizzly bears and that has been proven so yus.

 

No f***ing s*** evolution exists. We've established that already. Now unless you're going somewhere with this polar bear fetish' date=' shut up about it already.

[/quote']

 

If a poplar bear con evolve in a couple hundred years what makes diff that apes con evolve into humans over a million years?

 

I think we have covered that already. EVOLUTION IS REAL. HUMANS HAVE EVOLVED. You know what I think? You are repeating, but rewording, the same post over and over to try and drive your point across. It's not working.

[~Emo~]

We should all just praise the monkeys and polar bears that raised us.

 

Polar bears are evolved versions of grizzly bears and that has been proven so yus.

 

No f***ing s*** evolution exists. We've established that already. Now unless you're going somewhere with this polar bear fetish' date=' shut up about it already.

[/quote']

 

If a poplar bear con evolve in a couple hundred years what makes diff that apes con evolve into humans over a million years?

 

I think we have covered that already. EVOLUTION IS REAL. HUMANS HAVE EVOLVED. You know what I think? You are repeating, but rewording, the same post over and over to try and drive your point across. It's not working.

I beat it never accord to you that i am Christian did it?

[Guest]

You guys keep saying "evolution" is undeniable, but what you fail to realize is there are different kinds of "evolution": the two main ones being microevolution (mom and dad have brown eyes, but son gets blue eyes) and the theory of macroevolution (humans evolved from monkeys). Microevolution is definitely true and happens on a generational basis. The theory (I say theory because that's what it is, a THEORY; a possibility yet unproven) of macroevolution, however, is by very nature impossible to prove (or disprove for that matter) because of the vast amounts of time needed for the changes to occur. Basing it off fossil records is a fallacy because it's impossible to know for 100% certainty exactly how those fossils ended up in that location in the condition they're in.

 

Also, I consider myself at least somewhat religious, yet I wouldn't classify myself as close-minded. I'm open to other interpretations, and I am perfectly willing to look into their validity. Horus, you may want to not generalize and stereotype so much in future debates, it just tends to anger people ;).

[Dad]

We should all just praise the monkeys and polar bears that raised us.

 

Polar bears are evolved versions of grizzly bears and that has been proven so yus.

 

No f***ing s*** evolution exists. We've established that already. Now unless you're going somewhere with this polar bear fetish' date=' shut up about it already.

[/quote']

 

If a poplar bear con evolve in a couple hundred years what makes diff that apes con evolve into humans over a million years?

 

I think we have covered that already. EVOLUTION IS REAL. HUMANS HAVE EVOLVED. You know what I think? You are repeating, but rewording, the same post over and over to try and drive your point across. It's not working.

 

 

@ Crab: I get it now.

 

We came from dust technically' date=' because of said Big Bang. But where did all that combustible stuff come from? Nothingness? How the hell is that possible? >.<

[/quote']

 

No, the Big Bang is fake. Instead, an invisble diety up there or down there or sideways there used his big hand of magic and created the sun, the 9 planets, and everything else that exists in the universe, only kept life on one planet, and wants everyone to believe in him even though we cannot prove his existance. Because that makes so much sense. [/sar]

 

Why are you contradicting yourself?

 

He repeats the obvious but you do the same.

 

And no. If you understand what a miracle is, you understand God. I just wanna know where the particles of rock and what not came from, to further my understanding.

 

If that's a problem, then maybe we should abolish education, asswhole.

[Dark]

We should all just praise the monkeys and polar bears that raised us.

 

Polar bears are evolved versions of grizzly bears and that has been proven so yus.

 

No f***ing s*** evolution exists. We've established that already. Now unless you're going somewhere with this polar bear fetish' date=' shut up about it already.

[/quote']

 

If a poplar bear con evolve in a couple hundred years what makes diff that apes con evolve into humans over a million years?

 

I think we have covered that already. EVOLUTION IS REAL. HUMANS HAVE EVOLVED. You know what I think? You are repeating, but rewording, the same post over and over to try and drive your point across. It's not working.

I beat it never accord to you that i am Christian did it?

 

I bet it never occurred to you that I am Christian, did it?

 

So because you are Christian, you are going to say the same thing over and over?

 

@ Darth: I don't know if this is the stereotype you were talking about, but MOST people who believe in a supreme diety are closed-minded, and won't take facts and interpret them. It is one thing to believe in God. It is another to deny fact and believe in God. Again, I am not saying atheists have undeniable fact that a supreme diety does not exist, but at least atheists are not close-minded as to ignore fact and fully follow ones opinion.

 

@ Solus: I thought you were flat-out saying the Big Bang is bullshit and God is real. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[~Emo~]

We should all just praise the monkeys and polar bears that raised us.

 

Polar bears are evolved versions of grizzly bears and that has been proven so yus.

 

No f***ing s*** evolution exists. We've established that already. Now unless you're going somewhere with this polar bear fetish' date=' shut up about it already.

[/quote']

 

If a poplar bear con evolve in a couple hundred years what makes diff that apes con evolve into humans over a million years?

 

I think we have covered that already. EVOLUTION IS REAL. HUMANS HAVE EVOLVED. You know what I think? You are repeating, but rewording, the same post over and over to try and drive your point across. It's not working.

I beat it never accord to you that i am Christian did it?

 

I bet it never occurred to you that I am Christian, did it?

 

So because you are Christian, you are going to say the same thing over and over?

 

No, I am saying that things are true and most people are to stupid to understand it and try to make something up to cover it.