3-0 Banlist Rules

[Fraz]

Does anyone have a collective list of all the rules a 3-0 list follows? Slightly curious about something...

[GenzoTheHarpist]

There's no universal rules. The most commonly accepted "rules" i've seen on the site were these ones crab helmet posted.

 

Anyhow...

 

Even though each card needs to be handled individually' date=' I find that, in general, most cards are banworthy for one (or more) of these five conditions:

 

[b']1)[/b] The card gives too large a reward too easily for too small a cost. Most of these cards are splashable, but not all; a theme support card that lets you draw 7 cards for no real cost would be banworthy under this, despite not being splashable. Example: Raigeki.

 

2) The card enables one or more OTK's and/or FTK's to be accomplished easily. Often, these cards are used solely for the purpose of OTK's and/or FTK's. Example: Magical Explosion.

 

3) The card invalidates a basic mechanical part of the game by effectively preventing it from ever being used with any merit; a good game does not turn its back on its basic mechanics. Example: Nobleman of Crossout (invalidates Flips).

 

4) Similar to number 3, the card invalidates a certain playstyle that would otherwise contribute to the game. Example: Cyber Dragon (invalidates Stall).

 

5) The underlying idea of the card's effect is, as a matter of principle, completely unacceptable in any form. Example: Victory Dragon.

 

Condition 1 covers the vast majority of banworthy cards, with Condition 2 being the next largest. Arguably, Conditions 3-5 could probably be combined into a single condition, but there's no harm in spreading it out like this.

 

And, since I'm here, I may as well list my ideas for the conditions of Limiting:

 

A) The card cannot remain at 3 due to one or more of the banning conditions (probably Condition 1) but provides some benefit to the game at 1 that allows it to remain. Example: Mirror Force.

 

B) The card cannot remain at 3 due to an unacceptable interaction with another copy of itself; at 1, however, it cannot interact with itself, and thus can remain legal. Example: Night Assailant.

 

C) The card cannot remain at 3 for purely mechanical reasons that make multiple copies of it impossible; however, it can remain at 1, where there are no other copies with which to conflict. Example: Twin-Headed Behemoth.

 

Condition C is a good example of how each card needs to be handled individually; to my knowledge, Twin-Headed Benemoth is the only card that falls under Condition C, and it is certainly the reason that Condition C was created.

 

And, since we may as well cover Semi-Limits while we're at it:

 

X) The card cannot remain at 3 due to an unacceptable interaction with two other copies of itself; at 2, however, it cannot interact with two other copies of itself, and thus can remain Semi-Limited.

 

X is the only Semi-Limit condition that I can think of possibly happening; Condition A doesn't extend to Semi-Limiting, since it applies to cards that we want to exist but as little as possible, and I can't see Condition C extending either. I give no example of Condition X because I don't believe that any such card currently exists. If you want examples of cards that Condition X might theoretically cover, look at Thunder Dragon and Volcanic Scattershot; however, as their effects are not unacceptable, they don't need to be Semi-Limited.

[Fraz]

See, that's what I though all the apparent rules were. If there's nothing else then it's fair to conclude that all the 3-0 lovers on this site who complain about not having a 3-0 list, and especially those who make 3-0 lists with every OTK possible banned, are idiots.

 

 

Looks to me like the current banlist is is a 3-0 banlist.

[The Dark One]

See' date=' that's what I though all the apparent rules were. If there's nothing else then it's fair to conclude that all the 3-0 lovers on this site who complain about not having a 3-0 list, and especially those who make 3-0 lists with every OTK possible banned, are idiots.

 

 

Looks to me like the current banlist is is a 3-0 banlist.

[/quote']

 

It loosely resembles one yes. It just has a rather ridiculously roundabout way of approaching the concept. Eg: Dark Armed Dragon, Judgment Dragon, Gladiator Beast Gyzarus, Goyo Guardian, etc. should all be at 0 right now. Why aren't they? Because Konami wants cash.

 

Ane we can hardly blame them for that: it's just the way companies work.

 

To be honest though, I don't feel like I hear all that much about 3/0 whining anymore. I mean aside from the resurrection of the old UKP Heavy Storm topic.

 

It's just a general principle used to describe our arguments against the various new members who make random numbers up when determining a card's list position. Why the hell should MST be at 2? etc.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

See' date=' that's what I though all the apparent rules were. If there's nothing else then it's fair to conclude that all the 3-0 lovers on this site who complain about not having a 3-0 list, and especially those who make 3-0 lists with every OTK possible banned, are idiots.

 

 

Looks to me like the current banlist is is a 3-0 banlist.

[/quote']

 

Not really. The limited/semi limited list are not 3-0 at all as there's no 3-0 logic involved in why most things are placed there.

[Fraz]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

[Docomodake]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

 

It's allowed' date=' sure, but the limits and semi-limits should be reasonable, not just to keep something alive as long as possible before you ban it. [i']Example: Crush Card Virus.[/i]

[CrabHelmet]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

 

ITT: If a 3-0 list allows some Limits and Semi-Limits, then all lists are 3-0.

[RyanAtlus]

We shouldn't complain about lists anymore.

It's not as if Konami will read this and care about it.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

 

And it has very specific guidelines for why to limit/semi limit things, which Konami blatantly isn't following (only like one card on their semi limit list would even be under consideration on a 3-0 list.)

[CrabHelmet]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

 

And it has very specific guidelines for why to limit/semi limit things' date=' which Konami blatantly isn't following (only like one card on their semi limit list would even be under consideration on a 3-0 list.)

[/quote']

 

Two cards, actually. Both Dewloren and Malicious would at least be arguable.

[Fraz]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

 

And it has very specific guidelines for why to limit/semi limit things' date=' which Konami blatantly isn't following (only like one card on their semi limit list would even be under consideration on a 3-0 list.)

[/quote']

 

CHAOS SORCERER - Experimental. Will probably change on next list.

DESTINY HERO - MALICIOUS - Interacts with itself obv

GOBLIN ZOMBIE - Goblin zombie searching goblin zombie is a really good play. With new cards out that abuse this you'll see it limited next list.

JUDGMENT DRAGON - Play 3 from hand to do 9000 damage easily. Therefore interacts with itself.

LONEFIRE BLOSSOM - 3 means you can search 3 then play symbols. At 2 it can't do this.

MASK OF DARKNESS - Should be at 3.

MEZUKI - At one it doesn't offer enough speed. At 3 it offers too much. 2 makes perfect sense under 3-0

NECROFACE - At 3 it OTK's very easily.

ALLURE OF DARKNESS - At 3 it draws through your deck too quickly.

CHAIN STRIKE - At 3 interacts too easily with other copies of itself to win too quickly.

FOOLISH BURIAL - Same as mezuki.

GOLD SARCOPHAGUS - Should be at 3.

MAGICAL STONE EXCAVATION - Same as mezuki. The OTK strategies which use this are currently too unstable to warrant this card's banning.

BOTTOMLESS TRAP HOLE - Konami logic is that if every deck plays 3 copies of a card they should limit it somehow. They're trying to force creativity and variety onto the metas by doing so. I don't like that tbh. I think this is also a decision made to go with the very good limiting of solemn judgment.

MIND CRUSH - Experimental. Will/Should be at 3 next format.

ULTIMATE OFFERING - Same as mezuki.

 

 

They're trying to make sure as many cards remain at 3 as possible. I view this as a good thing.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

 

And it has very specific guidelines for why to limit/semi limit things' date=' which Konami blatantly isn't following (only like one card on their semi limit list would even be under consideration on a 3-0 list.)

[/quote']

 

Two cards, actually. Both Dewloren and Malicious would at least be arguable.

 

And Thunder Dragon and Volcanic Scattershot, if you really tried hard. Also Card Trooper.

[CrabHelmet]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

 

And it has very specific guidelines for why to limit/semi limit things' date=' which Konami blatantly isn't following (only like one card on their semi limit list would even be under consideration on a 3-0 list.)

[/quote']

 

Two cards, actually. Both Dewloren and Malicious would at least be arguable.

 

And Thunder Dragon and Volcanic Scattershot, if you really tried hard. Also Card Trooper.

 

Unless I missed a recent banlist update, those aren't on Konami's Semi-Limited list.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

 

And it has very specific guidelines for why to limit/semi limit things' date=' which Konami blatantly isn't following (only like one card on their semi limit list would even be under consideration on a 3-0 list.)

[/quote']

 

Two cards, actually. Both Dewloren and Malicious would at least be arguable.

 

And Thunder Dragon and Volcanic Scattershot, if you really tried hard. Also Card Trooper.

 

Unless I missed a recent banlist update, those aren't on Konami's Semi-Limited list.

 

Oops, misread the quote pyramid.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

They're trying to make sure as many cards remain at 3 as possible. I view this as a good thing.

 

However, there are quite a many cards that absolutely should not be at 3. And in a 3-0 list...

[The Dark One]

Did you even read the apparent guidelines for making a 3-0 list? It says on it that a limited and semi limited list is allowed.

 

And it has very specific guidelines for why to limit/semi limit things' date=' which Konami blatantly isn't following (only like one card on their semi limit list would even be under consideration on a 3-0 list.)

[/quote']

 

CHAOS SORCERER - Experimental. Will probably change on next list. No justification. Experiments don't warrant semis. 3 or 0.

DESTINY HERO - MALICIOUS - Interacts with itself obv. That interation is questionably fair at 2, but this is a decent semi.

GOBLIN ZOMBIE - Goblin zombie searching goblin zombie is a really good play. With new cards out that abuse this you'll see it limited next list. Are you high? This was just a generic way for konami to stomp a bit on zombies' feet. 3 or o.

JUDGMENT DRAGON - Play 3 from hand to do 9000 damage easily. Therefore interacts with itself. Or play two plus a normal summonable monster. It's not the OTK caused by multiple copies o the card that makes it banworthy. It's the advantage that it can generate with little skill and little cost at the drop of a hat. Dark Hole is banned. Feather Duster is banned. This card basically cobines the two. (ANd don't give me sheet about it nuking your spells too, LS play Beckoning and Decree. That's it.)

LONEFIRE BLOSSOM - 3 means you can search 3 then play symbols. At 2 it can't do this. lol symbols. That's not why this was semi'd. Konami just wanted to stomp on Plants' feet by hurting their consistency. 3 or 0.

MASK OF DARKNESS - Should be at 3.

MEZUKI - At one it doesn't offer enough speed. At 3 it offers too much. 2 makes perfect sense under 3-0. Vague much? We're not talking about the speed of the deck here. We're talking about the card. Is mezuki's effect banworthy? Because if so, it's gone. If not? Let's eave it at 3. Future card design can fix any unbalances the zombie deck may appear to have.

NECROFACE - At 3 it OTK's very easily.

ALLURE OF DARKNESS - At 3 it draws through your deck too quickly. Lolspeed. If allure promotes speed too much by being so splashable and therefore turbocharges the game, we should consider banning it. Making it a more inconsistent draw is not beneficial. That just promotes luck or skill, remember?

CHAIN STRIKE - At 3 interacts too easily with other copies of itself to win too quickly.

FOOLISH BURIAL - Same as mezuki. No.

GOLD SARCOPHAGUS - Should be at 3.

MAGICAL STONE EXCAVATION - Same as mezuki. The OTK strategies which use this are currently too unstable to warrant this card's banning. LulMSE. I agree the OTKs are too inconsistent as is. So leave it at 3. No harm done. When/If they gain prominence, it's gone. No semi sheet.

BOTTOMLESS TRAP HOLE - Konami logic is that if every deck plays 3 copies of a card they should limit it somehow. They're trying to force creativity and variety onto the metas by doing so. I don't like that tbh. I think this is also a decision made to go with the very good limiting of solemn judgment. Solemn should not be limited. It doesn't interact with multiple copies of itself, and it's not a banworthy card that can stick around because of some benefit it has on the game. Solemn is an example of good card design. It's only broken in this format because of the multiple other broken cards. I believe there was a thread or two over on pojo that argued over solemn. Go read it if you can't figure it out. There were actually a few intelligent people posting.

MIND CRUSH - Experimental. Will/Should be at 3 next format. Experiments don't justify semis.

ULTIMATE OFFERING - Same as mezuki. Stupid. 3 or 0.

 

 

They're trying to make sure as many cards remain at 3 as possible. I view this as a good thing.

[Fraz]

Why is banning something and having it at 3 the only answer for you people? Have you read the guidelines for 3-0? It does not say all cards should either be at 0 or 3. It does not say the only limits and semi limits need to be cards which interact with other copies of themselves. Cards which are beneficial to the game and that are overpowered should not be banned. Cards like JD, Celestia, Wulf, Gyzarus, DAD... are beneficial to the game so they cannot be banned under 3-0, yet everybody keeps shouting to ban them.

[Sunshine Jesse]

JD and DAD aren't beneficial to the game because they grant an insurmountable advantage to whoever can get them out first. When your opponent gets them out, and have nothing right then and there to defeat them, its pretty much always game.

 

Gyzarus is the same as above, but on a smaller scale.

 

Celestia and Wulf bring up the whole luck vs skill debate.

[Fraz]

Who cares about all that. They get people playing archetype decks which is good for the game and accomplishes what Konami are trying to do.

[tonisanoob]

i love you fraz^^

[Sunshine Jesse]

Considering LS can work fine without JD, and JD is horribly broken, no... JD can and should be banned. Same for Gyzarus. Wulf and Celestia are still iffy to me.

[Flame Dragon]

Who cares about all that. They get people playing archetype decks which is good for the game and accomplishes what Konami are trying to do.

People that care about the sanctity of the game. If a card damages the game then it should be banned. Putting it at 2 or even 1 doesn't change the fact that it is still damaging the game.

And gettng people to play a deck isn't beneficial.

 

Also just looking at your list I'll point out some failing.

LONEFIRE BLOSSOM - 3 means you can search 3 then play symbols. At 2 it can't do this.

Ok' date=' and you'll still end up with the same end result of having one plant beastick. The only time this changes is when you add more copies of Symbol which is situational.

 

GOBLIN ZOMBIE - Goblin zombie searching goblin zombie is a really good play. With new cards out that abuse this you'll see it limited next list.

No it isn't. I play Zombies and I'd never search an extra copy of Zombie when I can just as easily take a Master and end with both Master anf Zombie on the field. =And what new cards?

 

MAGICAL STONE EXCAVATION - Same as mezuki. The OTK strategies which use this are currently too unstable to warrant this card's banning.

How could this ever be bannable? You need at least this and two other cards in your hand for it to even work. If their are OTK ban the cards that are causing the OTK. Also any OTK with this can't be good since it alone makes it a 3 card OTK with no clear way to win.

 

JUDGMENT DRAGON - Play 3 from hand to do 9000 damage easily. Therefore interacts with itself.

Being 3000 points off from an OTK is a huge problem when you have two field nukers out.

[CrabHelmet]

Cards like JD' date=' Celestia, Wulf, Gyzarus, DAD... are beneficial to the game

[/quote']

 

It depends on how you define benefiting the game, but pretty much everyone using 3/0 theory considers DERP DERP NUKE GG to be a Bad Thing.

 

And saying that they're fine at 2/1 because then they can't come out as often or whatever is exactly the opposite of what 3/0 is about. If a card is a problem card, then limiting it does not solve the problem (again, with certain exceptions regarding self-combos and such).

[Guest Supreme Gamesmaster]

Either Fraz or I am missing the point. I'm thinking those rules were for banlists in general, not 3-0, which states that no cards are at 2 or 1 (hence the name).

 

That should expedite the argument no matter who's right or wrong.