Dark Armed Dragon - Is it in the same group as Heavy Storm and Torrential Tribute?

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

 

We all know what DAD does, an easily summonable 2800 beatstick with a fantastic effect, highly banable, highly effective. However, the more I've look at it, the more it starts to sound like Heavy and Torrential: makes your opponent think, promotes skill, can instantly turn the match, so is it really that different than other field clearers? Sure DAD can easily be summoned and turn the game, but so can any other field clearer, and unlike his LIGHT younger brother, it actually takes some skill to bring out and use.

 

To state it simply: Is DAD really so overpowered and broken that he should be banned? Or is he more like his s/t friends Heavy and Torrential and stay at 1 to promote skill?

 

Discuss

[Kyosuke Kiryu]

Needs to be banned. Although I feel that it cannot be compared to TT and Storm.

[evilfusion]

Yes, yes it is. There isn't much skill in this card at all. All you need is grave control and a deck that runs Dark monsters. Once it's summoned, feel free to load your grave with more Darks, because you can nuke cards near-costlessly as many times a turn as you like. This is an excellent example of "If you can't stop it immediately, you're screwed".

 

Even Phantom of Chaos makes this card broke. You ditched it early? Summon Phantom, remove DAD, nuke your opponent's field using your plethora of discarded Dark monsters.

 

From the get go, DAD can nuke 3 cards just because it was summoned. Not at once, so chains can stop it, but this gives so much advantage, is easily summoned with the right type of deck, and has a ton of ATK. Broken, not skillful. It doesn't discourage overextending like Mirror Force, Heavy Storm, and Torrential.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

@Kiryu: Care to expound on why you believe they cannot be compared

[Kyosuke Kiryu]

Torrential Tribute and Heavy Storm are good for the game.

 

Dark Armed Dragon is not, simple as.

 

Although I wish Dark Armed was @2 and JD was @1 one if we had to have one at 2 and one at 1.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

It's painfully obvious as to why Dark Armed Dragon is overpowered...

 

Grave control is a joke in this game. Plain and simple.

 

Even if grave control was made more difficult, something as simple as having exactly 3 darks in the grave shouldn't be rewarded with a 2800 beatstick and a -3 to your opponent. The reward far far far outweighs whatever "risk" you might think it gives.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

DAD is much more splashable than JD, it's better for the game at 1. On the splashable note, when comparing it to HS and TT, splashability isn't an option since every deck and it's mother can run HS and TT. Both DAD and HS/TT can field wipe, both are limited to 1, and both promote cautious, skillful play to avoid. Saying it takes absolutely no skill to play because all you need is "grave control" is hogwash, grave control itself takes skill to do effectively -.-

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

DAD promotes skill? WAT.

[Expelsword]

I've won many a game with my D-Hero deck without summoning D-Heroes

 

3 guesses how

[evilfusion]

[spoiler=Have fun reading]Torrential and Heavy Storm offer similar risks to both players. Torrential wipes your own field of monsters, Heavy Storm wipes your own field of Spells and Traps. Both players are likely to carry one in their decks. The risks and benefits are the same. Using Torrential too early will leave you vulnerable to a possible swarm later. Very often, I've summoned a monster, had the field Torrential-ed by my opponent, and then applied a series of Special Summons I had been withholding. Waiting too long to use Torrential can lead to your opponent not Summoning any more once they have sufficient field presence. This is partly why Torrential is more skill-based. It has a specific trigger that applies to both players.

 

Heavy Storm...is a very complicated card when one tries to analyze its power. Often it will only be used when you have no S/Ts, making it the equivalent of Harpie's Feather Duster, a very overpowered card. However, unlike Harpie's, it WILL affect your field and using it can often be an internal decision of whether you can afford to destroy your own cards, if applicable, to destroy the opponent's. You may often withhold Heavy Storm to keep your own cards safe, allowing your opponent's own S/Ts to remain un-nuked for this time. Also, when you start laying S/Ts, players have to consider the odds of the opponent having a Heavy Storm and will find it wiser to conserve their S/Ts until later. A weaker player may set four S/Ts whereas a smarter, more skilled player may only set two.

 

Mirror Force is similar, in regards to how an opponent views their opponent's backrow. If they think one of the cards is Mirror Force, they'll hesitate to swarm the field. Sometimes you may even withhold Mirror Force's activation until the opponent has gained a sense of false security and becomes more reckless, or the timing of Mirror Force is more beneficial to you. Mirror Force creates a psychological game merely by its existence and forces players to think more about their actions when they attack. Unlike cards like Sakuretsu Armor, Mirror Force can blast all monsters in ATK position and so should not be rushed into. This forces players to STRATEGIZE about how they plan to attack or what they should wait for before proceeding. This is skillful play.

 

Dark Armed Dragon, however, creates one-sided advantage, and not just a little advantage, like other destruction effects. This card has a massive 2800 ATK, has no cost to its summon besides from a specific number of DARK monsters. DARK is one of the most well-supported attributes in the game and most of their cards have powerful effects in additional to being versatile. Some notable DARKs include Blackwings, Infernity, Reptilianne, a lot of Zombies, most fiends, etc. A lot of the DARK Counterpart monsters, most from PTDN focus a lot on Grave Control. Pot of Avarice helps with grave control. Grave control is one of the most simplistic strategies in the game now and can be done with relative ease.

 

Unlike Storm/Torrential/Mirror Force, there is little anyone can do to skillfully evade this card, short of negating its Summon or Effect. It doesn't force an opponent to think their moves over carefully before rushing towards victory. It doesn't make them think of whether or not to destroy your cards. All it does is give you a massive advantage if they don't have an immediate answer.

 

JD is a similar problem. It requires only 4 different Lightsworns in the graveyard and the Lightsworn MILL your cards, so it won't take long to do that. Then for a mere 1000 LP, it nukes the entire field. Except for itself. A 3000 monster...nukes the entire field but itself. Demise, King of the Armageddon did the same thing, but was a 2400 Ritual monster that required 2000 LP. And that thing got limited/semi so fast after release. What they're thinking letting JD be @2...

 

But I digress. DAD has similar destructive power to JD. For next to no cost, it can blast your opponent's cards. It can almost be argued DAD is WORSE than JD, because at least JD nukes your cards too, and requires you to play a theme (Lightsworn), whereas DAD is absurdly splashable in decks running DARKs and gives quick, simple advantage. Sure, only 3 cards, but when this thing's out, what are the odds your opponent is going to have a lot of cards out for long? Zombies/Blackwing/DARK counterpart decks fuel the grave easily and so DAD gets more ammo for its effect. With its high ATK and the preservation of your own field presence, this card alone gives a MASSIVE advantage.

 

The only skill it needs is for you to add cards that allow grave control and to run DARKs. That's not skill. You don't even need to think about grave control beyond "remove all but 3 DARKs". This card is way too powerful for its ease of summon. Maybe if it could only nuke one card a turn, instead of unlimited, then it wouldn't be that bad. But as it is, this card is overpowered.

 

 

[Dr. Cakey]

DAD is NOT in the same group as Heavy / Torrential / etc. because it is not universal. It is highly splashable, but it doesn't belong in every deck evar, i.e. even a lolJinzo deck would have a copy of Mirror Force and Torrential.

 

DAD is more specific, but it supports the #1 most supported Attribute.

 

Grave Control is not difficult, but you can't fine-tune it as easily as the field or hand. DAD's 'exactly' is important - you are going to have to grind down the number of monsters in your Graveyard very often, which is important, but yes, it is easy to do.

 

DAD is not worse than JD. JD nuking your own cards is a disadvantage, but if you think that makes less than DAD, you probably also think it's bad because you lose 4 cards, one of which is Sakuretsu Armor.

 

DAD takes skill to play, JD does not. Does it take a lot of skill? No. It's not the same kind of skill it takes to assemble a Gadget deck, or the skill it takes to know when to use Oppression, but is at least SOME skill.

 

Now, should it be banned? Maybe, but only if a number of OTHER cards are also banned. As long as Konami feels this or that needs to be kept so that this or that doesn't asplode, DAD must remain among us.

[Expelsword]

Hey Sakuretsu Armor is better than a lot of cards...

 

like Final Destiny

[evilfusion]

DAD is not worse than JD. JD nuking your own cards is a disadvantage' date=' but if you think that makes less than DAD, you probably also think it's bad because you lose 4 cards, one of which is Sakuretsu Armor.

[/quote']

 

You may have misinterpreted my intended message. Either that or I poorly elaborated on it. I was pointing out that, unlike JD, DAD preserves your field presence because JD nukes the entire field whereas DAD nukes chosen cards. So you can summon DAD among a swarm of other monsters, nuke 3 cards, and utterly dominate your opponent, whereas the same tactic with JD would ruin both fields. Not that it truly matters, victory should be close at hand after such a brutal nuke. I was not really attempting to say that DAD is worse for the game than JD, but frankly, neither of them should be allowed at 2, as was previously suggested (that DAD is better at 2 than JD at two) They're both too overpowered, but DAD's splashability is noticeably problematic.

 

JD nuking your field IS more disadvantageous than DAD's concentrated nuking, but JD provides such a strong advantage from that effect it's almost irrelevent. I'm not sure what your "Sakuretsu Armor getting milled" comment was about, because I was comparing Sakuretsu explicitly to Mirror Force, referencing the format before Mirror Force was unbanned, where Sakuretsu was the big removal trap. Once Mirror Force was unbanned, the psychological effect referenced took effect, where running 3 monsters at 3 facedown cards was seen as a much more reckless move than before Mirror Force was back.

 

Lightsworn thrive off milling. Why would I think JD's 4 card mill makes it worse than DAD? I was specifically referencing the field presence aspect of JD's effect. Neither of them strike me as "skillful" cards. DAD is only mildly more skill-requiring, especially with limited nuking power and a mildly more difficult summoning condition, but the original mention of skill is whether it's the same brand of skill that makes Heavy/Torrential/Mirror Force good for the game, rather than overpowered. I am point-blank saying that idea is absurd.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

grave control itself takes skill to do effectively -.-

 

Lol, what game are you playing? XD

[deathxy]

i remember the c++ version of prometeus

 

if summon == prometus then

{

if graveyard > 3 then graveyard = 3;

}

;

summon = DAD;

cout>>"succesfull summon (Y/N)? ";

cin<

if summon == DAD and success == y then

game = WIN;

}

 

something similar, i forgot how to use c

[Dr. Cakey]

DAD is not worse than JD. JD nuking your own cards is a disadvantage' date=' but if you think that makes less than DAD, you probably also think it's bad because you lose 4 cards, one of which is Sakuretsu Armor.

[/quote']

 

You may have misinterpreted my intended message. Either that or I poorly elaborated on it. I was pointing out that, unlike JD, DAD preserves your field presence because JD nukes the entire field whereas DAD nukes chosen cards. So you can summon DAD among a swarm of other monsters, nuke 3 cards, and utterly dominate your opponent, whereas the same tactic with JD would ruin both fields. Not that it truly matters, victory should be close at hand after such a brutal nuke. I was not really attempting to say that DAD is worse for the game than JD, but frankly, neither of them should be allowed at 2, as was previously suggested (that DAD is better at 2 than JD at two) They're both too overpowered, but DAD's splashability is noticeably problematic.

 

JD nuking your field IS more disadvantageous than DAD's concentrated nuking, but JD provides such a strong advantage from that effect it's almost irrelevent. I'm not sure what your "Sakuretsu Armor getting milled" comment was about, because I was comparing Sakuretsu explicitly to Mirror Force, referencing the format before Mirror Force was unbanned, where Sakuretsu was the big removal trap. Once Mirror Force was unbanned, the psychological effect referenced took effect, where running 3 monsters at 3 facedown cards was seen as a much more reckless move than before Mirror Force was back.

 

Lightsworn thrive off milling. Why would I think JD's 4 card mill makes it worse than DAD? I was specifically referencing the field presence aspect of JD's effect. Neither of them strike me as "skillful" cards. DAD is only mildly more skill-requiring, especially with limited nuking power and a mildly more difficult summoning condition, but the original mention of skill is whether it's the same brand of skill that makes Heavy/Torrential/Mirror Force good for the game, rather than overpowered. I am point-blank saying that idea is absurd.

 

I was referencing yugiohoverlord's genius insights on JD. Personally, I like DAD at 1 - we have enough stupid anti-DARK stuff. By now, most things have some kind of general destruction card, right?

[Guest PikaPerson01]

i remember the c++ version of prometeus

 

if summon == prometus then

{

if graveyard > 3 then graveyard = 3;

}

;

summon = DAD;

cout>>"succesfull summon (Y/N)? ";

cin<

if summon == DAD and success == y then

game = WIN;

}

 

something similar' date=' i forgot how to use c

[/quote']

 

And what happens if graveyard < 3?

[Wizarus]

On the splashable note' date=' when comparing it to HS and TT, splashability isn't an option since every deck and it's mother can run HS and TT.

[/quote']

 

Which is one of the reason why they(Heavy Storm at least) are good for the game. Darks shouldn't be rewarded a nuke, regardless of the number of cards that can counter it.

[evilfusion]

i remember the c++ version of prometeus

 

if summon == prometus then

{

if graveyard > 3 then graveyard = 3;

}

;

summon = DAD;

cout>>"succesfull summon (Y/N)? ";

cin<

if summon == DAD and success == y then

game = WIN;

}

 

something similar' date=' i forgot how to use c

[/quote']

 

And what happens if graveyard < 3?

 

I'm not very familiar with this coding language, but I have enough programming experience to answer that nothing special would occur. The effect of graveyard=3 only occurs if Promethus is summoned and graveyard>3. Otherwise, the coding passes over those lines as the conditions are not met to trigger those "effects".

[Expelsword]

I just used DAD to win a game with 7 cards left in my deck and all of my Dragoons and their materials RFP...

 

but I'll be honest, I Necro Gardna'd his own suicide attack to keep him in the game and he drew Mind Control...

 

I didn't want to win the easy way

[deathxy]

if graveyard < 3 and summon == prometeus then

cout>>"YOU FAIL";

[DARKPLANT RISING]

Judgement Dragon is much more stronger than Dark Armed Dragon.

Either ban both, or make both at 1.

Or even better, ban just Judgement and make Dark Armed at 1.

[Yankee]

Spell/Trap field nukes are up against Starlight Road.

 

DAD doesn't have a lot of opposition.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

DAD is different than HS and TT because it turns the game around even if your opponent didn't overextend.

[Psycho Shocker Android]

Dark Armed Dragon is a threat, while Heavy Storm and Torrential Tribute are answers. They are clearly not in the same group.