Veganism

[CinnamonStar]

Veganism is a stronger type of the vegetarian diet that excludes any type of meat or animal products, which means no cow milk, gelatine, leather and anything that is derived from an animal.
Simply vegetarian means excluding any type of meat, but a vegetarian might still use animal products like cheese, fabrics that are derived from animals. There are pollo-vegetarians (those who eat chicken) and pescetarians (fish) and you can include them into the discussion if you want but usually those are not considered vegetarian (do chicken and fish grow on plants or what?).

So this debate is going to focus on the pros and cons of milk products, dairy and any kinds of products derived from animals, as well as on the vegan diet overall. It's not about "for or against vegan people" or about PETA, so please refrain from brainfarts like "I love meat", "I don't like meat", "dat vegan guy is a prick", "meat-eaters should all go to hell", etc. Obviously a person following whatever diet in the world isn't going to hurt anyone (except huge meat-eaters), "well dat vegan guy isn't hurting anyone so he can do whatever he wants *insert fictional tolerance tiara*". But the fact of people having the liberty of doing whatever they want shouldn't stop us from discussing the subject of milk and related products because cow milk IS a topic these days...especially while keeping in mind the industrial procession of milk products as well as the clothing industry (leather, silk, down). Heavily packaged and processed milk products, animal skinning for the sake of luxurious fabrics, etc.

So is the abstinence of cheese, cow milk and the likes beneficial in terms of ethical, ecological or other reasons compared to including these products? Is it worth it to refrain from taking them, how do you feel about the health aspects?

I'd like to see where this is going so discuss.

[CinnamonStar]

It's been approved so gogogogogo!!=D

[GenzoTheHarpist]

I've been skeptical of the health benefits of veganism... but you would definitely benefit the environment by minimizing use of animal products, and when you do use them try and use organic ones.

[Catterjune]

Both of them are terribly unhealthy or a waste of time, but veganism is even more terribly unhealthy and time-waste-ish for you, so vegetarianism, for the lesser of two evils.

[Flame Dragon]

If being a Vegan gave you super powers I would gladly do it. Since that is not the case,
[quote name='PikaPerson01' timestamp='1290572339' post='4806565']
Both of them are terribly unhealthy or a waste of time, but veganism is even more terribly unhealthy and time-waste-ish for you, so vegetarianism, for the lesser of two evils.
[/quote]
this

[DARKPLANT RISING]

I don't see how it can be healthy. Vegetarians can be, I'm told, but how do you get the nutrients meat have?

[Sotos]

[quote name='PikaPerson01' timestamp='1290572339' post='4806565']
Both of them are terribly unhealthy or a waste of time, but veganism is even more terribly unhealthy and time-waste-ish for you, so vegetarianism, for the lesser of two evils.
[/quote]

Eeeeeexactly^^

[Icy]

[quote name='=Evangelion=' timestamp='1290691259' post='4809072']
I don't see how it can be healthy. Vegetarians can be, I'm told, but how do you get the nutrients meat have?
[/quote]

Vitamin Supplements?

[Sotos]

Well, it's not the same as normal food...-.-

[I-dreezyAFG]

muslims can't eat gelatin, so thats totally out of the debate, but any other meat thats halal is okay.
now, i have to admit that i love vegetables, but never i my life will i be a vegen. if god gives you meat (thats not from pig) you should take it.

[CinnamonStar]

Alright I updated the first post for confusion.

Well to all the people who posted, vegetarianism has been proven numerous times to be healthy and veganism as well, at least theoretically, since vegans usually consume a lot of soy beans rather than cow milk. But it's not for everyone, there are a lot of personal accounts from people who got put back on eggs and cheese from their doctors because the diet just didn't work for them. What do you think about this?

To get you started, I thought I'd just post this (NOT NECESSARILY MY OPINION but I thought it'd be good to start somewhere). Sorry if it's one-sided, I have 2 articles about the milk industry that are more researched but they're in German and...well.

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/dairy-industry.aspx

Again, I didn't write this myself but what do you think?

[quote name='PikaPerson01' timestamp='1290572339' post='4806565']
Both of them are terribly unhealthy or a waste of time, but veganism is even more terribly unhealthy and time-waste-ish for you, so vegetarianism, for the lesser of two evils.
[/quote]

How is it a waste of time? Granted, you're not saving the world but a vegetarian diet is certainly more ecological and ethical than eating the corpses of murdered animals. I do think that it can be a waste of time when it's difficult to get things, all the way you have to go sometimes to find specialized stores (not every local market has soy or coco milk and sometimes they don't even have meat substitutes). It can also be a bit of a hassle when you're eating out with friends and have to settle for a place that serves everyone in the group. While a lot of restaurants have vegetarian dishes, vegan ones are harder to find, even in cities.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Vegans got the best vegan restaurant in Portland closed, boycotted it because the owner's [i]other[/i] restaurant served Foie Gras. Dummies.

[Icy]

@Opal: Cold moment for me...

The Animal gets recycled anyway. But instead as nutrients for us. And it is ONLY "ecologicial" from what I understand, when the farms are close by. Otherwise the waste produced is just about the same, if not worst (depending on how far you have to have it imported). It really is more of a personal choice and nothing more if that holds true.

[CinnamonStar]

[quote name='GenzoTheHarpist' timestamp='1290748260' post='4810799']
Vegans got the best vegan restaurant in Portland closed, boycotted it because the owner's [i]other[/i] restaurant served Foie Gras. Dummies.
[/quote]

[s]Riveting tale chap[/s]
=D

Well that's what often happens with vegangelicals, how I call them. Many don't eat at places that serve anything that isn't 100% vegan or that has a side restaurant that works that way. I'm not sure what to think about it, of course you're supporting a chain/company that relies on animal torture as part of the production, but on the other side you show them that there's a demand for vegan stuff. Personally I go eat my veggie burgers anywhere as long as it's not just 2 pieces of pickles.=/

[quote name='JoshIcy' timestamp='1290750292' post='4810830']
@Opal: Cold moment for me...

The Animal gets recycled anyway. But instead as nutrients for us. And it is ONLY "ecological" from what I understand, when the farms are close by. Otherwise the waste produced is just about the same, if not worst (depending on how far you have to have it imported). It really is more of a personal choice and nothing more if that holds true.
[/quote]

[s]Sometimes I'd prefer having humans being murdered and recycled for animals for a change but y'know.[/s]

Of course it's a personal decision, about anything in life really, but that's why I was asking what people's [i]personal opinion[/i] is about milk products and the whole clothing industry.
When you're a vegetarian or at least environment-conscient, you usually buy organic and local products (unless you live in a remote corner with no specialized shops but that's an exception). Otherwise it really doesn't make any sense so a lot of people do it automatically.

But the problem of waste is actually a point in all of this, the soy plantages in Brazil and the ones in local soils that weren't meant to grow that kind of food. If you jump over to a vegan diet, you have to rely on soy products more than ever (cheese, yoghurt, meat substitutes) and I know that a lot of people have been asking themselves to what point they were minimizing the damage done on the planet. Since the biggest amount of soy is imported so that's a thing to think about.

[DARKPLANT RISING]

[quote name='JoshIcy' timestamp='1290697635' post='4809159']
Vitamin Supplements?
[/quote]
......
Doesn't seem healthy for me.

[Dark]

I'm a cold-hearted vegetarian, mainly due to the health benefits (since I'm unhealthy enough to the point where eating meat often would be extremely detrimental), but I'm not an absolute vegetarian in the sense that I occasionally eat meat, be it once a year or something to that effect.

I don't, however, understand the health benefits that come with veganism. I'm not entirely sure how one would substitute for milk and cheese in a diet, whereas vegetarians only need to substitute for a loss of protein that can easily be made up via beans and eggs.

[Tentacruel]

I'm also skeptical of vegan-ism. Vegetarianism however, is actually more healthy than if you do eat meat. The only reason I'm not a vegetarian is because animals are just too damn tasty. <3

[Dark]

I eat the occasional chicken and "other stuff" and I've never developed a taste for it. I don't really understand how other people like such food only considering the taste, and not considering the conditions of animals, the senseless killing of animals, et cetera. That, and, the major health risks you are taking by eating meat. Even if it did taste good to me, I'd prefer to not die of a heart attack than to eat meat.

Then again, people eat meat all the time and live past fifty, so maybe I'm just a paranoid bastard.

[CinnamonStar]

We all know that vegetarianism has proven to be healthy when done well and we have heard so many times that Dark is an almost vegetarian for health reasons only, but that's not the point here.>_>

Eating excessive amounts of meat can lead to health problems but eating excessive amounts of chips like I do isn't good either (I had high triglycerides and blood pressure when I was younger despite not eating any meat). Then on the other side many people who eat meat are perfectly healthy so I guess it's a matter of balancing it and what kind you eat. The one stuffed with antibiotics and chemicals isn't the good kind for example.

So veganism. The thing is, it's yet to be proven whether milk and milk products are really healthy and as good as publicity shows us. Vegans replace all the dairy products by soy-made ones and soy milk is definitely very healthy, probably more than cow milk. But on the other side there's the problem I mentioned before about the soy plantages. If a large amount of the population wants to replace dairy products by soy-based ones, then we need one hell of a lot of soy plantages, including the ones grown on home soils that aren't supposed to grow that kind of food and a big amount of it would be imported. Think about the soy plantages in South America eating up local soils. So for a lot of European countries especially it would be harder to adjust to something like that than for example in Asian or other countries where soy is a local plant.

And yes this is what I planned this topic to be about but apparently it's a bit hard to get.

[Dark]

Look, I can't live without milk and cookies, and [i]soy[/i] milk and cookies is not the same, so veganism isn't for me. Not at all.

[CinnamonStar]

^Then you're kind of like me, same reasons why I can't be a vegan myself either.D: Even though I try to buy soy milk when I want to drink it pure and eat a lot of soy yoghurts, vegan mozzarella for example is disgusting.D:

I didn't want to pick a side of it yet but since it's pretty much one-sided and...well I gave myself out already it doesn't matter anymore.
I have some arguments about why/how we can consume dairy products, cow milk and eggs without inflicting as much harm as PETA tries to tell us.

[CinnamonStar]

Meh since this has to do with the topic, I got my results from my blood test a few days ago and...blergh, my level of some vitamins and minerals has never been so low, I have a high deficit of vitamin B2 and iron and must take strong pills for the next month. Now I know why I've been so exhausted all the time and have been doing badly at university too. Sucks...

But this brought up a few things in my mind, when I'm in my own flat I cook almost borderline-vegan stuff plus fish...only get some cheese when I go out. No particular reasons for that, I just noticed that I eat a lot of soy and that the way I eat is almost going into that direction. But this made me think again that as a woman, you have it a little bit harder.:S Again, some people will think that "well you're ill so you're doing it wrong" but from all I could gather, a vegan lifestyle and even a vegetarian one is harder to do for women than for men. Because during your time of the month you already lose blood, including iron and stuff, so one hell of a lot of women have an iron deficit anyway. IDK how many but it's very common.

Another thing that I'd see worth discussing is the iron and vitamin B2 problem. Vitamin B2 is found mostly in fish, meat and eggs. So for vegetarians and pescetarians it's not a big deal, sometimes you have to take additional pills but usually the amount is well-covered. Now for veganism, products based on soy and cinnamon contain a whole lot of B2, something like 3 times more than a piece of cow meat or something. But the issue is that the human body doesn't take the minerals well, when you go to the toilet you flush them down the drain and they don't actually stay in your body. So meh, I'm kind of divided on the soy issue. Sure, soy products are overall healthier than milk products but when it comes to vitamins and iron, only a small amount of it stays in your body and you might get some problems, especially if you're a woman. Not saying it never works but not everyone can adjust to this type of diet.

I got linked to this article on the pesco forum:
http://voraciouseats.com/2010/11/19/a-vegan-no-more/

Well she kind of dealt with the same issues and now after looking through her blog, it seems like she's following a reasonable kind of diet, at least in my opinion. Mostly local and plant-based stuff, with some meat and other animal products, but it's the exception rather than the everyday meal which is the biggest mistake most people are doing IMO. Even worse than eating cheese and using leather. But the reaction of some people is a bit shocking though.:/

[quote]There were some vegans who acknowledged that I might really need to eat animal products to be healthy. But they insisted that I should never mention it, and definitely never talk about how much healthier and happier I was, or how delicious meat is. This opinion made me feel especially disgusted and angry.

I’m not going to beat myself up every single day for eating what I need to be strong and happy. How utterly ridiculous that would be. I refuse to believe that I live in a world that is so twisted that doing something necessary to survive is evil. That reeks of the whole ugliness of ‘original sin’ to me, and I just don’t buy it.

There are many, many people in the world that tried to be vegan but couldn’t make it. Just like me, they wanted it with all their hearts but their body just wouldn’t cooperate. When vegans deny that this issue even exists and that it is simply impossible for people to have different dietary needs, that is not helping fix the problem.[/quote]

So basically, one aspect that a lot of people tend to push aside is that women need a higher intake of iron and certain vitamins, especially if you have a strong period. And well, that makes that they have to organize their eating plans a bit differently.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

I comepletely understand the health benefits for veganism and vegetarianism what i dont understand is the "Cruelty to animals" belief system. I could sort of see how a person would feel about it however I believe in Survival of the fittest. So therefore i find no reason for veganism and vegetarianism to even exist except for the medical and health benefits.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

[quote name='tonymann' timestamp='1293484165' post='4887620']
I comepletely understand the health benefits for veganism and vegetarianism what i dont understand is the "Cruelty to animals" belief system. I could sort of see how a person would feel about it however I believe in Survival of the fittest. So therefore i find no reason for veganism and vegetarianism to even exist except for the medical and health benefits.
[/quote]
WTF does "survival of the fittest" mean here? Just because you CAN be cruel to something doesn't mean you're obligated to. I mean if I had a gun, it doesn't mean that I need to go on a shooting spree pronto. There's such a thing as restraint.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

technically no outer force would stop you from doing that many people carry guns around them as a means of self defense which means they are trying to survive only the strong and clever will survive is what it means.