Evolution

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

I think I found the name you are thinking of, Jeane Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet.

[Catterjune]

[quote name='ragnarok1945' timestamp='1302282738' post='5122900']
I didn't say it's PROOF we came from monkeys, I'm merely saying there's a link between the species.

How specific that link is remains to be seen
[/quote]
Humans and chimpanzees are 99% identical in terms of DNA.

[quote name='Halubaris Maphotika' timestamp='1302283980' post='5122928']
I do believe in evolution to some extent so therefore it exists according to my religious beliefs... BTW I heard there was someone before darwin who propsed the theory but Darwin got more attention...
[/quote]
[quote name='FTW (For The Wynn)' timestamp='1302284694' post='5122943']
If there is, I have not heard of him or her. That's not surprising though, as I am unfamiliar with it.
[/quote]
[quote name='ragnarok1945' timestamp='1302284905' post='5122945']
Do you know who that person is? I can't think of it off the top of my head
[/quote]

Charles Bonnet

[Frunk]

[quote name='FTW (For The Wynn)' timestamp='1302283142' post='5122910']As for Darwin being incorrect, his thought process behind evolution was incorrect. But that's understandable. He did his work in the mid 19th century, and a lot has changed since.

@Frunk, as soon as I recall the names, I shall give them to you.[/quote]

I fail to see how his thought process was incorrect, and the fact that he lived and developed his theory in the 19th century is total irrelevant. Indeed a lot has changed, but nothing upon which his theory relies has changed.

Your lapse in memory is suspiciously convenient.

[quote name='ragnarok1945' timestamp='1302285465' post='5122962']
it's ok. Then you happen to know where online to find it? Maybe I can look it up
[/quote]

There's this little site called Google. Millions use it every day to search for things like "evolutionary theorists who preceded Darwin". It's so simple to use, you might even be able to, assuming I'm not expecting too much of you.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=evolutionary+theorists+who+preceded+Darwin

Knock yourself out.

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

[quote name='Frunk' timestamp='1302285836' post='5122975']
I fail to see how his thought process was incorrect, and the fact that he lived and developed his theory in the 19th century is total irrelevant. Indeed a lot has changed, but nothing upon which his theory relies has changed.

Your lapse in memory is suspiciously convenient.[/quote]
For my lapse in memory, not really, because if it was, we would be discussing something else. You are right, the basics of what he was talking about are as true as we know them to be, however, it is outdated. Science as we know it has come a long way since the time of Darwin. Evolution has changed, just like everything else because it has updated. In that regard, he is kind of like Freud. I'm just making a comparison here, no need to get mad. Anyway, Freud is considered the father of "modern psychology", but there have been improvements to his ideas and there are different schools of thought. For example, Pavlov and his dog experiment. It's the same for evolution, as science and people's understanding has changed, so has the original ideals of Darwinism. My phrasing choice was poor, but you all have already questioned my intelligence today, so I'm not likely to win any intellectual awards here.

[Shalltear Bloodfallen]

[quote name='FTW (For The Wynn)' timestamp='1302283142' post='5122910']
As for Darwin being incorrect, his thought process behind evolution was incorrect. But that's understandable. He did his work in the mid 19th century, and a lot has changed since.
[/quote]

Untill you can back that up with facts, I will not believe you since I personaly don´t see how his theory could´ve been incorrect.

Yes, there are missing links in the stages of evolution humanity is said to have gone through before becoming, well, humans.
But completely discarding it just because he couldn´t give the exact pattern the evolution took, is being horribly ignorant.

Fossils, that date back millions of years all prove that life on earth was completely different and has gone through "changes" (mutations) since then to better survive the changed climate.

The DNA of Humans and chimpanzees are 99% identical and chimpanzees.

And the fact that he did his work in the 19th century is completely unrelated to if he is right or wrong.
Yes, things have changed since then, but it doesn´t affect if his theory is trustworthy.

School teaches evolution because it´s the most scientificaly proven to be correct regarding how each race was created.

FTW, you are a troll.

EDIT:

[quote name='FTW (For The Wynn)' timestamp='1302286969' post='5123011']
For my lapse in memory, not really, because if it was, we would be discussing something else. You are right, the basics of what he was talking about are as true as we know them to be, however, it is outdated. Science as we know it has come a long way since the time of Darwin. Evolution has changed, just like everything else because it has updated. In that regard, he is kind of like Freud. I'm just making a comparison here, no need to get mad. Anyway, Freud is considered the father of "modern psychology", but there have been improvements to his ideas and there are different schools of thought. For example, Pavlov and his dog experiment. It's the same for evolution, as science and people's understanding has changed, so has the original ideals of Darwinism.[/quote]

Evolution has changed, I´ll give you that, but only in the regard that we can examine Darwins theory more closely now.

Freud is considered the father of "modern psychology" because he was first in examining the human subcouncious and set theories regarding it that last to this day.
Different angles at it have been taken, but they were all taken with Freud´s theories in mind.

[quote name='FTW (For The Wynn)' timestamp='1302286969' post='5123011']
but you all have already questioned my intelligence today, so I'm not likely to win any intellectual awards here.
[/quote]

Welcome to the internet!

[Catterjune]

While the primary idea of natural selection - individuals best adapted to their environment are more likely to survive and reproduce - has remained mostly the same and accepted, the exact way these traits and features remained unclear to Darwin at his time, or at least at the time he published the Origin of Species and the Descent of Man. He hadn't take heredity and genetic drift into account.

Granted, those things merely strengthen his hypothesis as opposed to say, Newton who suggested all these things and then by the time we get to the subatomic level, classical Newtonian physics breaks down.

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

[quote name='Lazaruz' timestamp='1302287020' post='5123013']
Untill you can back that up with facts, I will not believe you since I personaly don´t see how his theory could´ve been incorrect.

Yes, there are missing links in the stages of evolution humanity is said to have gone through before becoming, well, humans.
But completely discarding it just because he couldn´t give the exact pattern the evolution took, is being horribly ignorant.

Fossils, that date back millions of years all prove that life on earth was completely different and has gone through "changes" (mutations) since then to better survive the changed climate.

The DNA of Humans and chimpanzees are 99% identical and chimpanzees.

And the fact that he did his work in the 19th century is completely unrelated to if he is right or wrong.
Yes, things have changed since then, but it doesn´t affect if his theory is trustworthy.

School teaches evolution because it´s the most scientificaly proven to be correct regarding how each race was created.

FTW, you are a troll.
[/quote]
How have I trolled? By offering a different viewpoint? That effectively makes anyone who has ever thought differently a troll. However, that's not important. Whether I am a troll or not is unimportant and honestly, has nothing to do at all with this thread. However, I will apologize if that is what you think, as my only purpose in doing this is merely to observe and understand why people believe what they believe. Is that really so wrong?

Science as we know it 600 years ago said that Earth was flat. Very few people questioned it because there was no proof. As of today, no one here believes that anymore, because we know it isn't. Technology proves that. Technology gives a lot of support to the cause of evolution, but we cannot definitively say that it exists 100% as we know it to exist, because there are new breakthroughs every day. Perhaps in 30 years there will be a new theory that completely eradicates the ideas of evolution, that's entirely possible. Don't just blindly assume something must be exactly how it is told. As for the DNA thing, yes, it is very similar. There is a 98%-99% similarity. But, just because something is similar doesn't mean it is absolute proof. But, that 1%-2% difference is a huge difference.

Do I think evolution exists? Yes, I do, to an extent. Didn't see that coming did we? Do I have all the answers? No, no one does. Not Darwin, not Christianity or any other religion, certainly not me. Could I be wrong? Yes, there is a good chance of it. But, it isn't important what I believe or not believe, as this isn't meant for that. This thread is just meant as an open discussion on what you believe and why. I made this thread with the full intent of listening to what everyone believes and why.

Yes, evolution is currently covered in schools, as well it should be. But, so should every other belief and theory, or at least the most commonly believed viewpoints. Science can't explain everything and most likely never will. Besides, people should be aloud to form their own viewpoints based off of all of the available ideas and perhaps even form their own beliefs because of it.

@Pika, very good points.

[Catterjune]

[quote]Science as we know it 600 years ago said that Earth was flat. Very few people questioned it because there was no proof. As of today, no one here believes that anymore, [/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

Granted, it's just as BS as any other fundamentalist ideal out there but what can you do?

On-topic: Did you really think a forum populated by 12 year olds could possibly formulate an idea or think critically or anything like that?

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

I was being naive and hoping that I could perhaps expand others' beliefs and in the process expand my own understanding. An exchange of ideas, if nothing else.

Also, that society is hilarious. I forgot they existed.

[Dark]

[i]Theory is practical exchangeable with fact in science.[/i]

Honestly, that is all that is needed to be said. Evolution is a scientific [i]theory[/i] only because it isn't a scientific [i]law[/i]. Both pretty much have the same degree of certainty and truth to them, but laws are inherently different from theories. We've gained enough evidence to prove that evolution, both adaptive and the other kind (macro?), both exist and readily happen, and we've gained enough evidence to almost be certain (with an error rate of [b]extremely not a lot[/b]) that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. Just because you can't understand what a "scientific theory" is doesn't mean you can go question evolution when it's pretty much proven to happen.

Then again, if you want to go stick some religious books in your ears and ignore what I'm saying, so be it. I can't really help the fact that some people are just so immersed in religion to even comprehend that some things proven by science might *gasp* go against their religion. Evolution is just Jesus giving us a Lucky Egg while we're training, and gravity is just Jesus' hand pressing down on the Earth as it's his stress ball. Nothing more, ofc.

[quote name='Crab Helmet' timestamp='1302279311' post='5122818']
Now that that's cleared up, let's discuss a question that has a less obvious answer:

FTW: Moron... or troll?
[/quote]

Former. I can prove it, too. [s]With the Bible.[/s]

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

Dark, I already said I believe in evolution. I also have my own religious beliefs, but that is of no mind here.

[Dark]

[quote name='FTW (For The Wynn)' timestamp='1302291538' post='5123178']
Dark, I already said I believe in evolution. I also have my own religious beliefs, but that is of no mind here.
[/quote]

The first two paragraphs weren't only directed at you, they were directed at everyone who decides to read this thread. The last sentence was directed at you because you were foolish enough to post such a thread. You obviously don't understand that it's kind of hard to question evolution as you would then be going against proven facts. The reason religion isn't taught in schools is because: one, America is publicly secular, and thank [s]god[/s] the FSM for that, and; two, because religion cannot be proven and can therefore be considered wholly incorrect until proven correct.

Once someone proves creationism correct, we can stop teaching evolutionary theory and start teaching the Bible. Until then, don't question facts.

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1302291701' post='5123187']
The first two paragraphs weren't only directed at you, they were directed at everyone who decides to read this thread. The last sentence was directed at you because you were foolish enough to post such a thread. You obviously don't understand that it's kind of hard to question evolution as you would then be going against proven facts. The reason religion isn't taught in schools is because: one, America is publicly secular, and thank [s]god[/s] the FSM for that, and; two, because religion cannot be proven and can therefore be considered wholly incorrect until proven correct.

Once someone proves creationism correct, we can stop teaching evolutionary theory and start teaching the Bible. Until then, don't question facts.
[/quote]
Don't question facts? That is absolutely horrible advice Dark. "Facts" should be questioned until all questions are answered. You know that.

As for teaching religion in schools, I'm not saying there should be worship. I'm saying there should be understanding. Yes, I was foolish enough to post the thread. It is the result of a sleepless night and a question based in long-standing curiosity. No arguments here about that here. Nor will I argue the belief that I am a moron, I [s]probably[/s] am indeed that.

If no one has figured it out yet, I'm taking a neutral stance, mostly because I like playing devil's advocate to every side.

[Dark]

Understanding of what? Religion impedes the progress of science, and if you want, I can site five different instances where that has happened before.

[i]until all questions are answered[/i]

What possible lingering questions do you still have about evolution? We are sure evolution is a fact. We don't know what the first being on this planet was, but we are speculating about that, not declaring anything as a fact. If you want to question evolution as a process, you are pretty much questioning that 2 plus 2 equals 4.

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1302292585' post='5123217']
Understanding of what? Religion impedes the progress of science, and if you want, I can site five different instances where that has happened before. [b]No, religious idiots impede the progress of science. Not religion itself. In fact, science can actually support religion, and religion can support science. However, your beliefs are your own and that is how it should be.[/b]

[i]until all questions are answered[/i]

What possible lingering questions do you still have about evolution? We are sure evolution is a fact. We don't know what the first being on this planet was, but we are speculating about that, not declaring anything as a fact. If you want to question evolution as a process, you are pretty much questioning that 2 plus 2 equals 4. [b]Alright, I would like a completed chart of evolution, one that doesn't have any holes in it. Oh wait, that doesn't exist, so here's question number 1. What are the holes, the missing links? What is the proof that we started as primordial ooze? Why do people think that science and religion are mutually exclusive? You hit the nail on the head, speculation =/= fact.[/b]
[/quote]
Adaptation exists, that is something we can see and we can understand. The adaptative differences between say llamas and camels are proof of this. Over time, these adaptations could build up, change the physical traits of a particular species over time and that could be evolution. But, we don't have all the answers and can only speculate to it. Theory =/= fact, no matter how well it can explain quite a bit. That's the point. I'm not saying it's wrong, hell I believe a good bit of it. But it is not the only school of thought, and while it cannot be proven be as easily proven by science, it is still a possibility. Don't disclaim a possibility before it can be proven. If people do that, then science wouldn't even exist. Effectively, your line of thought that it can't exist is what leads to people making it exist. That's how the airplane was invented.

[Icy]

[i]Understanding of what? Religion impedes the progress of science, and if you want, I can site five different instances where that has happened before.
[/i]

Really? No. Certain purists impede the progress of science. And in fact, most Catholic/Religious Sects tend to offer scholarships in Science. While they do not believe that it changes their opinion on god/etc. It does give them a sense of motivation to discover more of this universe that their "god" created, or the FSM/atoms/random occurence, whatever you wanna call it. Curiosity and Motivation as well as reasoning remains the same.

[Dark]

[i]Theory =/= fact[/i]

You so sure about that?

Although it was mentioned a ton of times already, gravity is a theory. But more people are inclined to believe that gravity is also a fact because it is more tangible than evolution is. I drop my phone on the ground and it continues falling until it hits something that impedes the fall. Gravity.

I'm not saying that a scientific theory is always true 100% of the time, but the error rate in scientific theories is so low that they are essentially true. There is such a low chance that evolution is incorrect that it's completely negligible.

Also, people who stated that it was impossible to get a piece of matter to fly did not have the proper scientific proof to back that up. However, people who claim evolution is true have more than enough evidence to support such a claim.

[quote name='Icyblue' timestamp='1302293607' post='5123245']
[i]Understanding of what? Religion impedes the progress of science, and if you want, I can site five different instances where that has happened before.
[/i]

Really? No. Certain purists impede the progress of science. And in fact, most Catholic/Religious Sects tend to offer scholarships in Science. While they do not believe that it changes their opinion on god/etc. It does give them a sense of motivation to discover more of this universe that their "god" created, or the FSM/atoms/random occurence, whatever you wanna call it. Curiosity and Motivation as well as reasoning remains the same.
[/quote]

I just realized, "site" should have been "cite". Huh.

You completely misunderstood my post. In no way was I trying to say that all religious people are completely against science, but religion is based on faith and science is based on experimental data. Remember Galileo? Threatened with death because he believed (and correctly believed) that a heliocentric model of the universe made the most sense? Or remember during the medieval ages when you had to be in the closet if you were a scientist? Religious groups HATE when things go against their beliefs, because they have no answer except "lalala I can't hear you shove this Bible up your face". Some religious people hold a loose belief and therefore believe that religion and science can coexist, but religion as a whole impedes science, especially with the radical dumbasses that exist.

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1302291386' post='5123175']
Just because you can't understand what a "scientific theory" is doesn't mean you can go question evolution when it's pretty much proven to happen.
[/quote]
Scientific Theory is something that has yet to be proven wrong. Science cannot prove anything, merely disprove it, and until something has been disproven it is considered correct.

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1302294257' post='5123254']
[i]Theory =/= fact[/i]

You so sure about that?

Although it was mentioned a ton of times already, gravity is a theory. But more people are inclined to believe that gravity is also a fact because it is more tangible than evolution is. I drop my phone on the ground and it continues falling until it hits something that impedes the fall. Gravity.

I'm not saying that a scientific theory is always true 100% of the time, but the error rate in scientific theories is so low that they are essentially true. There is such a low chance that evolution is incorrect that it's completely negligible.

Also, people who stated that it was impossible to get a piece of matter to fly did not have the proper scientific proof to back that up. However, people who claim evolution is true have more than enough evidence to support such a claim.[/quote]
Yes, gravity is a theory. It is a theory because we don't understand all there is to it. There are still questions to be answered in this field. Evolution is a theory because of the same reasons. If you want my actual view, I believe that evolution exists, but it doesn't explain our creation from the beginning because we can only speculate the beginning.

Evolution will most likely never be completely negligible. It is still as valid as any point discussed thus far.

That last paragraph is true but it can be expanded. They did have proof to that belief in the form that we didn't have wings or any other evolutionary trait. Science proved them wrong by creating a machine that would allow us to fly. It is proof that science is ever expanding the knowledge of mankind because science is ever changing. The values and beliefs of yesterday are not the same as the ones today.

Also, Tsukasa brings up the point about Scientific Theory being a form to disprove beliefs.

When it gets down to it Dark, we basically believe in the same thing, but for different reasons. Could you be wrong? Yes. Could I be wrong? Hell yes. Could we both be wrong? Yes. Could we both be right? Yes.

Also, @Frunk, I remember what it is now. Look up the book "Darwin's Black Box" by Michael Behe. It's about "Irreducible complexity" and how Darwin's theories cannot support the evolution of life at a cellular level.

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

[quote name='FTW (For The Wynn)' timestamp='1302295194' post='5123281']
Yes, gravity is a theory. It is a theory because we don't understand all there is to it.
[/quote]
You're wrong here. It's a theory because we haven't been able to disprove it yet, not that we don't understand it all

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

Alright, in that respect, I am partially wrong. We can't disprove it nor do we understand all there is to it. I never said we didn't understand it at all.

[Catterjune]

[quote name='Dark' timestamp='1302292585' post='5123217']
What possible lingering questions do you still have about evolution?
[/quote]
Cambrian Explosion.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

well according to my beliefs (noetics science) Noetics science is the belief that the mind has mass and with that mass us humans can shape our reality to whatever way we please just by thinking... At first everyone believed that the earth was flat well... What if it was, at the time almost everybody felt the earth was flat and if they believed it without doubt the mass of everybodies thoughts would come together and suddenly the earth is litterall;y flat... Then the voyage of columbus made people think that the earth was not flat and suddenly the earth is round... The same thing goes with evolution it all depends on how many people believe...

However I will be open to everyones take on this...

[FTW (For The Wynn)]

Just to be sure Halu, this is the belief that if the majority of people believe it, it is correct? I am paraphrasing and cannot look it up right now, so I could be way off.

[Darth Revan of the Sith]

[quote name='FTW (For The Wynn)' timestamp='1302304247' post='5123569']
Just to be sure Halu, this is the belief that if the majority of people believe it, it is correct? I am paraphrasing and cannot look it up right now, so I could be way off.
[/quote]
Our minds will gain so much mass that yes, it will change reality... If you were to take it in a religious direction you could say we are divine... Noetics is a science that works together with religion to make a common truth...