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Sunshine Jesse Newbie

Sunshine Jesse

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[quote name='Mystery Guest' timestamp='1311038313' post='5367713']
There is a reason Gallis FTK and Exodia FTK don't win tournaments: because they are so inconsistent.

By keeping those FTKs in the format, you get bad players to play them due to their potential. However, better players will realize that, while the potential is there, you'll never be able to make them consistent enough to be competitive. Consistency is the heart (or liver, or gallbladder, or whatever) or a deck and weighs more into how good a deck is more than how powerful the deck can be.

Hence, only bad players will play with inconsistent OTK decks while better players will play with consistent decks. Hence, the game separates out the skill levels in the deckbuilding and becomes more skill-based.
[/quote]
And the occasional complete newbie will annihilate a seasoned vet due to lucky plays. In a large enough tournament, such a thing is inevitable. Which is unacceptable and should be prevented at all costs.
Besides, the skill should be focused more in the game itself than in deck building.

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Mysty Newbie

Mysty

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[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311041085' post='5367804']
And the occasional complete newbie will annihilate a seasoned vet due to lucky plays. In a large enough tournament, such a thing is inevitable. Which is unacceptable and should be prevented at all costs.
Besides, the skill should be focused more in the game itself than in deck building.
[/quote]

So a n00b gets some lucksack wins on occasion. Big deal. So do skilled players against other skill players when they topdeck the card they need or a card that gets them to a card they need.

Luck will always be a factor. Go to any large tournament and you'll probably find that there are many players that share a very similar skill level to those that topped. The reason the ones that topped did top was probably because of luck.

Deck-building is just as important to the skill of the game as actually playing the game (sometimes more so). Any duelist will tell you an archetype deck built with generic staples and only select cards from the archetype will generally work better than a mishmash deck or a deck built entirely around one type or Attribute. It takes skill (no matter how little) to choose a synergistic theme as opposed to random beatdown mishmash.

Obviously, in competitive sense, it's a bit more complicated. However, a more skilled competitive deck-building duelist is usually one that has more money and/or does more research. Here are three common examples for a competitive sense in which money is not an issue:

Duelist A decides not to check the meta at all and just build up some rogue homebrew. He figures he won't win, but people probably don't expect this matchup.

Duelist B gets a quick scan at the meta and chooses a different rogue deck. He's slightly better off than Duelist A since he knows that his deck is very distinct from the meta. He can side deck against the meta while the meta probably isn't side-decking against him.

Duelist C finds a deck that topped a recent tournament and netdecks it. After all, if you plan on winning, you run the best, right? Well, this choice wasn't the best....

Duelist D does his researchand checks all the recent tournaments top decks and deck statistics, researches all the techs used, maybe makes a prediction about what the next tournament scene will be like and/or what his dueling locals are like, and then either:
• netdecks a deck possibly with some changes modified for the upcoming meta (if he feels changes are needed)
• builds something based on taking down the meta but being flexible enough to take down a good number of rogue decks that show up.

In any case, if all these duelists are skilled, they will playtest and weigh a card's effect in the deck and on the meta with its consistency and synergy in the deck. Duelist D will probably end up better than the other three due to having done his research. The skills of research and calculations are integral skills in deckbuilding.

Yes, there are certainly skills in playing the game itself. There is a balance in skills between deckbuilding, deck-using, and general playing skill, and a proper banlist should account for all three when separating the non-skilled from the skilled and making the game more skill-based.

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~British Soul~ Veteran

~British Soul~

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[quote name='Chihaya Kisaragi' timestamp='1311030718' post='5367428']
[u]Semi-Limited:[/u]
Gate of the Dark World
[/quote]
so you want that to have the Trish treatment - hit the list before it hits TCG, and even when Trish came out it was @3

[quote name='burnpsy' timestamp='1311031621' post='5367461']
@All the Tengu Semi-Limits saying it's an emergency hit:

Emergency hits aren't done at regular banlist changes.
[/quote]
i see your point, but i think Konami should put it on the list anyway, i bet by now, they realised how broken it is

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Mysty Newbie

Mysty

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[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311142608' post='5371162']
I'd rather the bad players not play competitively at all then score an occasional lucky win against a seasoned vet.

I mean I know it's bad for business but this is Theory-Oh and not the place to worry about it.
[/quote]

Here are my counterarguments:
• Bad players boost the number of people in the tournaments. In such case, the tournament will usually be longer (hence giving you more time to check out how well your deck works) and, in tournaments where the prizes scaled, it just makes the prizes for the good players better.
• Tournament rounds are played in matches. It's very rare that an FTK deck will be able to pull off its FTK on the first turn twice in one round, especially if you won the coin flip at the beginning of the round. Even so, you can side in more effect Veilers to stop most FTKs (except Gallis FTK). At the very least, you'll probably win at least one of your games against the FTK deck after proper siding and going first.
• Sure, an FTK combo might win a small number of his rounds, but that will mean very little in a real tournament setting. It will be rather unlikely that he affects the Top 8 standings. The top players should have a consistent enough record to stay in the top unless everyone else in the top 8 had the same record. In which case, the tournament came down to luck, like a winning topdeck.
• It's always funny to see an expert duelist's face after they get beat by a crappy FTK deck run by a n00b.
• Yu-Gi-Oh! is still run by a business. Even if Yu-Gi-Oh! was run by a business that actually cared about the meta and not just about their profits, they would probably keep the FTKs in the game because they don't cause problems in the meta. If you banned every banworthy card, the result wouldn't be a diverse meta. While I don't remember what the meta would be, many banlist threads done over and over suggest that banning all cards that create FTKs and OTKs and all other banworthy cards leads to a meta more tyrannical than the current one. While I know this is Theory-Oh, the only way your idea would be implemented is if the game was completely free and nobody paid any money to get into tournaments or anything.

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wiithepeople Newbie

wiithepeople

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@0:
Mind Master (due to the FTKs it makes, such as the GustoFTK)

Spore, Glow-Up, Fishborg, and/or Unknown(because the release of Pain Painter assures me that Plague is safe for now)

Future Fusion (do I even need to explain the ridiculous FTK? Besides, Omni-Heroes are fine without it.)

@1:
Smoke Signal or Kagemusha (Either one could be banned as well, but as much as it hurts me to say this, Six Sams should still be playable, and these changes won't obliterate their style of play)

Royal Tribute (GKs are still abusing this card even @2. Putting it to 1 will make the GKs less of an overrun deck in the meta without hurting it too much. With Xyz on the way, I'm certain that no matter what gets banned, GKs are here to stay.)

Tribe-Infecting Virus (It can stop Six Sams, GKs, HEROs, pretty much anything, but it can easily be run over on the next turn given the high speed the meta is currently in.)

@2:
BLS-EoB (Since Sorc is @3 now and with the re-release via GLD4, I'm sure this is coming back. But the main argument is where to put it. Chaos decks need to make a comeback IMO and I think shifting EoB to 2 and keeping watch on it just to see what that does to the meta would help define it's stand in the next format. Used too much? Put it to 1. Not used enough? Put it to 3.)

The Fabled Cerburrel (This is by far a great Tuner, but it's being used in literally EVERY Fabled or Dark World deck I encounter. It's a bit contradictory to...)

Gale the Whirlwind (...this card. It hasn't seen alot of usage, though mostly in everyone's Side Deck due to Shi-En's rampaging of the meta. If this is put to 2 at the same time that one of the Six Sam cards I mentioned is put to 1, that helps quite a bit.)

@3:

MST (There's no reason why you shouldn't)

Card Trooper (I already mentioned this before in page 3 of this topic.)

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Blake Newbie

Blake

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[quote name='Ｄ・モバホン' timestamp='1311188690' post='5372114']
You do realized that I edited my post right? Don't make such a fuss over something that's not there anymore.
[/quote]
IT was there when I quote it, derp >>

Also, you keep saying things like that.

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wiithepeople Newbie

wiithepeople

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[quote name='~Burning Soul~' timestamp='1311188767' post='5372117']
...but this is YCM
[/quote]

And this is me saying that I do not care.

[quote name='Ravenous Black' timestamp='1311188835' post='5372118']
IT was there when I quote it, derp
[/quote]

But like I said, it's no longer there, derp. Again, don't make a fuss out of it.

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wiithepeople Newbie

wiithepeople

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[quote name='Ravenous Black' timestamp='1311189065' post='5372122']
You want BLS back [b]because it's obvious that it comes back[/b], and you want Cerburrel @2 [b]It will be overused in Dark Worlds after Grapha and Friends come out, and even now it's still overused. That is why it goes to 2[/b]
You don't want Big Fish to die. [b]Big Fish is not the problem, it's the cards around it that make it broken[/b]

You want UNKNOWN SYNCHRON to die. [b]Junk Doppel anyone?[/b]

... wat
[/quote]

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Blake Newbie

Blake

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....

[spoiler=Srsly]
[img]http://files.sharenator.com/11596d1220309043_afghanistan_legends_gtfo_take_fail_some_GTFO_pics-s570x610-76449-580.jpg[/img]
[/spoiler]

>Dark Worlds
>Cerb

... Nani?

As for BLS, "It's gonna happen" logic is terrible.

Unknown Synchron Argument is terrible.

Big Fish is a horribly designed card, and a problem.

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Jord200 Newbie

Jord200

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I take what I said back.

Banned

Gateway of the Six
Dandylion

Limited

Liberarian
Lonefire
Shi En
Necrovalley
Smoke Signal
Krystia

Semi Limited

Tengu
Infernity Launcher
Quillbolt
Kizan
Formula

Unlimited

MST

this is what I hope for/want to see.

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