J-Max Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='Akira' timestamp='1313227793' post='5438726'] CITATION NEEDED [/quote] I would have thought that the removal of the Foreskin (I feel so dirty saying that word XD) Wouldmean a cleaner Penile Area overall. Yeah Yeah I know that STD's are not caught by being unclean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 If you read the previous pages of this thread you'll see that basic hygiene practice can keep it perfectly clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vough Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='Dark' timestamp='1313217743' post='5438592'] ...that doesn't make sense. Why do pro-lifers want to criminalize abortion?[b] Because they believe that a fetus is a human and has a right to [i]choice[/i], a right to make decisions for itself. If that isn't the reason, then pro-lifers are even stupider than I thought.[/b] So why would pro-lifers want to force circumcision upon a child? They have a right to a [i]choice[/i], right? [/quote] You're essentially forcing an insult that doesn't even have to do with the topic and it's just your own deranged thoughts on pro-lifers. I think you're also overthinking this. Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choosers don't automaticly have different thoughts on circumcision. It is different per person. Consistency in that type of thinking is stupid. You're trying to put words in my mouth. Which is essentially doing nothing. Every couple decides whether their child would be circumcised, regardless of a political stance. And what would happen, if for some reason, that circumcision somehow became illegal or taboo. Does that mean the 65% of men that have them are infidels? There's nothing wrong about it and there's nothing...not wrong about it. [quote name='Akira' timestamp='1313227793' post='5438726'] CITATION NEEDED [/quote] [url="http://kidshealth.org/parent/system/surgical/circumcision.html"]http://kidshealth.or...rcumcision.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 >using a biased website as a reliable source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='Akira' timestamp='1313228365' post='5438736'] >using a biased website as a reliable source [/quote] >Ask for citation >Immediately blow it off as biased Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:^) Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 >mfw let people do what ever sick things they want in the privacy of their homes. /topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='Cindy ♥s You' timestamp='1313249015' post='5439097'] >mfw let people do what ever sick things they want in the privacy of their homes. /topic [/quote] kay -invites you to my home then murders you- What? The murder occurred in my home =w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 [i]Abortion is different because it's preventing/taking life, whereas this is debating whether skin should be removed from a live baby.[/i] "life" I don't think you understand the whole abortion debate. Most, if not all, of the people that are pro-choice feel that a fetus is not developed enough to be considered a "human being", and thus is not given the right to a choice because it's technically part of its mother. Abortion is not murder. You're taking the stance that an abortion [b]is[/b] murder and deriving your bullshit logic from that claim which is disputed anyways. It's not different, not at all. As a fetus in the first trimester of a pregnancy, I am pretty much a parasite feeding off of my mother and I shouldn't even be bestowed any human rights. If my mother would like to get an abortion [b]for whatever reason[/b], she should have every right to do so, should have every right to not be condemned, and should not be outcasted as a murderer. She's not. However, once I'm born, I want to be given the right to choose my future. As TheComposer aptly stated, parents are taking advantage of thier child's ignorance to the situation to do whatever they want. And yes, you absolutely can compare foreskin to an arm. Sure, the former doesn't have the functionality of an arm, and it is very traditious, but it's the same concept. You are taking a decision that will (down the line) affect the child [b]without even asking the child in the first place[/b]. That's like signing you up for a job at the local whorehouse without asking you whether you'd like that to be your future career. You want that, hon? [i]You're essentially forcing an insult that doesn't even have to do with the topic and it's just your own deranged thoughts on pro-lifers. I think you're also overthinking this. Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choosers don't automaticly have different thoughts on circumcision. It is different per person. Consistency in that type of thinking is stupid.[/i] Deranged? Wow. And I'm not retarded, I never said that all pro-choicers are against circumcision and that all pro-lifers are for circumcision. However, using the only logical point I see fit to be against abortion (that being that a fetus deserves the right to a choice (you can't use the logic that abortion is murder since that is heavily disputed (and the right to choice argument isn't disputed, but most pro-choicers believe that a fetus is part of the mother and the mother ultimately deserves to make the choice))), I can copy that logic to circumcision. So if you're against abortion and for circumcision, that is [b]just as ironic, if not more[/b] than being for abortion and against circumcision. [i]You're trying to put words in my mouth. Which is essentially doing nothing. Every couple decides whether their child would be circumcised, regardless of a political stance.[/i] Why is it the couple's choice? I don't want to be signed up for a whorehouse job without my permission, you don't want your arm to be cut off without your permission. So why does little Johnny get his foreskin cut off without [i]his[/i] permission? [i]And what would happen, if for some reason, that circumcision somehow became illegal or taboo. Does that mean the 65% of men that have them are infidels? There's nothing wrong about it and there's nothing...not wrong about it.[/i] Irrelevant. The point is that you can get a circumcision at pretty much any early age you want. So if a child can make his own cognitive choices at the age of five, he should decide at the age of five whether he wants a circumcision or not. He should be given a list of pros and cons (pros being greater religious affiliation, cleaner pubic area, cons being losing a masculine part of the body, less feeling during intercourse) and he should pick an option. You need to think about this logically, and you need to not blindly assume that parents will always do "what is best for the kid". Because I don't care "what is best for him", I care about what the kid wants. He's his own person, and if he doesn't want a circumcision, his parents should be condemned for forcing one upon him. The article posted can be summed up by this parallel article written by me about losing arms. "The arm-loss procedure is important if you're religious. Consider it. There are many pros and cons to arm-losing, but the pros don't have much weight. Neither do the cons. And potential medical complication from getting an arm-loss is very improbable, as well as the medical complications from not getting an arm-loss. Nobody has medically endorsed getting or not getting an arm-loss procedure." Essentially, the first point is null. Your baby isn't born into a religion, a parent just forces it on the kid and hope he blindly accepts it (note how I used the word blindly, so don't call me out for bashing religion - yet). The second point is pretty much saying that any potential benefits and any potential negatives to getting a circumcision [b]rarely[/b] come into effect. Meaning that the whole procedure is useless, and technically not getting the whole procedure is useless. However, since the standard is that boys are uncircumcised, it makes sense not to go through the extra trouble of circumcision since the benefits are null. The third point just bolsters the second point. If it's not medically endorsed, why bother getting one? It isn't a standalone solution to protecting against UTIs and STDs, and there are other ways to protect against those things, too. The article also blatantly assumes that it is the parents' choice. It shouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted August 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 Dark what the hell? I thought you were just an annoying troll before but now I love you, how things have changed~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote name='Akira' timestamp='1313274141' post='5440231'] Dark what the hell? I thought you were just an annoying troll before but now I love you, how things have changed~ [/quote] I still am an annoying troll. <_____< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vough Posted August 13, 2011 Report Share Posted August 13, 2011 [quote]There are many pros and cons to arm-losing, but the pros don't have much weight. Neither do the cons. And potential medical complication from getting an arm-loss is very improbable, as well as the medical complications from not getting an arm-loss. Nobody has medically endorsed getting or not getting an arm-loss procedure."[/quote] Yes, because the cons of losing an arm are small. You could not only potentially bleed to death, you basicly lose a giant jobrange and 1/2 of possible scholarships. I wonder why nobdy has endorsed getting an arm hemmed. I mean it's not like it matters or anything. Not like it does anything for you, like type on the computer, or play sports, or work machinery, or anything. I mean, foreskin totally does all that and more! [quote]You need to think about this logically, and you need to not blindly assume that parents will always do "what is best for the kid". Because I don't care "what is best for him", I care about what the kid wants. He's his own person, and if he doesn't want a circumcision, his parents should be condemned for forcing one upon him.[/quote] Like I said, logic is subjective. If you were a parent, I'd assume your child would be a druggee and a father/mother at the age of 13. What's the point of parents if they can't decide what their child does or doesn't do? Would you let a child jump off a bridge if that's what he wants? Or would you save his life? See how consistency is BS? And of course, a child shouldn't make his/her own decisions until they're 18. [quote]The second point is pretty much saying that any potential benefits and any potential negatives to getting a circumcision [b]rarely[/b] come into effect. Meaning that the whole procedure is useless, and technically not getting the whole procedure is useless. However, since the standard is that boys are uncircumcised, it makes sense not to go through the extra trouble of circumcision since the benefits are null. [/quote] When has the standard been uncircumcised? 65% of men in America says otherwise. Should parents be allowed corporal punishment, I mean it's their choice, and it does help is some cases, right? Or should a child decide whether he gets spanked by his parents? [quote]Why is it the couple's choice? I don't want to be signed up for a whorehouse job without my permission, you don't want your arm to be cut off without your permission. So why does little Johnny get his foreskin cut off without [i]his[/i] permission?[/quote] I fail to understand any logical reason why you be signed up in a whorehouse by your...loving...parents. I don't see why my arm would be cut off either. Cutting an arm off affects much more than cutting off a piece of skin.[i] [/i]It lowers your job range, college scholarships, etc. [quote]If my mother would like to get an abortion [b]for whatever reason[/b], she should have every right to do so, should have every right to not be condemned, and should not be outcasted as a murderer. She's not. However, once I'm born, I want to be given the right to choose my future. As TheComposer aptly stated, parents are taking advantage of thier child's ignorance to the situation to do whatever they want. [/quote] So...you want your mother to decide whether you have a future at all, than once she decides, you automaticly get to choose your future? Parents aren't doing it by some twisted thought that they can take advantage of there newborn to mutilate them. It's either a religious or medical choice. There are no pros nor cons (to a great extent) of having one or not having one. On a side-note, I wouldn't classify that as murder. [s]Manslaughter, maybe [/s]I really like the Australian's laws when it comes to this. So you're saying it's ironic I'm against killing a fetus and for the removal of a piece of skin? Yeah. That's totally ironic. Why would you let a 5 year old decide? Most 5 year olds still don't recognise right and wrong, so let them decide if they want their foreskin or not, they don't fully understand death, so they will obviously understand the pros and cons of such a thing.What I've drawn from your argument is that you'd rather live in a world where everybody has the choice to do whatever the hell they want, and that no-one should have responsibility over another. That a child's happiness is more important than their safety or well-being. If we lived in this type of world, we'd be even better off, wouldn't we? OF COURSE NOT! If parents can't decide for their kids, then every generation would just get worse and worse, until eventually we just fall into anarchy. KIDS DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE NOR THE MIND OF AN ADULT. They cannot make the same rational decisions, because they don't know the full consequences or effects of what may happen. I don't know, to the same extent, what consequences may ensue for my actions as my parents do. To say someone does would be a BS lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheComposer Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [i]KIDS DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OR MIND OF AN ADULT[/i] Here's something YOU need to realize. NOT ALL ADULTS ARE SMART. Some adults smoke around their child and make them try one. But hey, it's just one isn't it? Doesn't the parent always know best since they are an adult? No. Some kids are smarter than adults. ADULTS ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. That's just a biased opinion based off of age. Age doesn't determine how smart someone is. And again, they don't have the experience/mind. So instead of waiting until they can make a choice, why not do it while they can't make one? Again, you are taking such advantage over your child. Sure an arm is a much more important body part, but it doesn't change the concept. I don't care if they don't have the same experience, it's the child's life. They should be able to choose what they do with their body. And I wouldn't be so against this IF IT WEREN'T IRREVERSIBLE. The parent isn't always smart enough to make decisions like this. "But it's just foreskin!" You know what i have to say to that? While it's just foreskin, it's still part of your body, and I don't want any part of my body removed, whether it be an ear, a leg, an arm, or my foreskin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vough Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [quote name='TheComposer' timestamp='1313280868' post='5440541'] [i]KIDS DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OR MIND OF AN ADULT[/i] Here's something YOU need to realize. NOT ALL ADULTS ARE SMART. Some adults smoke around their child and make them try one. But hey, it's just one isn't it? Doesn't the parent always know best since they are an adult? No. Some kids are smarter than adults. ADULTS ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. That's just a biased opinion based off of age. Age doesn't determine how smart someone is. And again, they don't have the experience/mind. So instead of waiting until they can make a choice, why not do it while they can't make one? Again, you are taking such advantage over your child. Sure an arm is a much more important body part, but it doesn't change the concept. I don't care if they don't have the same experience, it's the child's life. They should be able to choose what they do with their body. And I wouldn't be so against this IF IT WEREN'T IRREVERSIBLE. The parent isn't always smart enough to make decisions like this. "But it's just foreskin!" You know what i have to say to that? While it's just foreskin, it's still part of your body, and I don't want any part of my body removed, whether it be an ear, a leg, an arm, or my foreskin. [/quote] Yes, because every parent smokes around their children. Assume that parents in this are smart, as dumb parents would hurt their children even more. Assume the parents are ones that only look for the good of their child. Why don't you want it removed, may I ask? What's so great about it that you want it to stay? I would remove the mole on my left arm instantly. I'm sure you'd want a wart removed, or acne, or anything else. What is your reason you don't want something to meaningless to be removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [quote name='Vough' timestamp='1313281858' post='5440583'] Why don't you want it removed, may I ask? What's so great about it that you want it to stay? I would remove the mole on my left arm instantly. I'm sure you'd want a wart removed, or acne, or anything else. What is your reason you don't want something to meaningless to be removed? [/quote] They've said countless times that it's the principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vough Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [quote name='Miror B.' timestamp='1313282001' post='5440589'] They've said countless times that it's the principle. [/quote] How does the principle matter? If it's the sole sake of principle the argument is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [quote name='Vough' timestamp='1313282094' post='5440593'] How does the principle matter? If it's the sole sake of principle the argument is flawed. [/quote] People don't like the idea that their parents went and cut off part of their body without their consent. It's their mindset. Try looking at different perspectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [i]I wonder why nobdy has endorsed getting an arm hemmed. I mean it's not like it matters or anything. Not like it does anything for you, like type on the computer, or play sports, or work machinery, or anything. I mean, foreskin totally does all that and more![/i] Sarcasm, hur-hur. Okay, I understand. So you're telling me that I am not allowed to compare cutting off someone's foreskin to cutting off their arm, mainly because the latter is a lot more extreme and has a lot more negat- [i]If you were a parent, I'd assume your child would be a druggee and a father/mother at the age of 13. What's the point of parents if they can't decide what their child does or doesn't do? Would you let a child jump off a bridge if that's what he wants? Or would you save his life?[/i] ...and yet you're perfectly fine with comparing the choice between cutting off foreskin and the choice between saving your child if he's about to jump off a bridge. I don't even know whether to take you seriously. [i]And of course, a child shouldn't make his/her own decisions until they're 18.[/i] BECAUSE I WANT MY PARENTS TO CHOOSE WHAT ELECTIVE I TAKE IN HIGH SCHOOL AND WHAT MY MAJOR IS AND EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT MY LIFE! ^_____^ [i]When has the standard been uncircumcised? 65% of men in America says otherwise. Should parents be allowed corporal punishment, I mean it's their choice, and it does help is some cases, right? Or should a child decide whether he gets spanked by his parents?[/i] No, the standard for any male is uncircumcised. Any male, when born, is uncircumcised. So if there are very few benefits and the benefits are very improbable to take effect, why force a child to go through the circumcision process? And I'm not okay with corporal punishment since it doesn't work the other way around; I can't kick my mom in the shin if she runs a red light, can I? [i]I fail to understand any logical reason why you be signed up in a whorehouse by your...loving...parents. I don't see why my arm would be cut off either. Cutting an arm off affects much more than cutting off a piece of skin. It lowers your job range, college scholarships, etc.[/i] That isnt relevant, take the hypothetical situation proposed that cutting one's arm off has benefits later in life, just like how you believe cutting off foreskin has benefits (which, if the benefits were actually useful, would probably result in circumcision becoming required or at least heavily recommended). You might argue that losing an arm is potentially more of a loss than losing foreskin, but you are still touching my body without giving me a say in the matter. The parallel argument is never exact, I know an arm is not a piece of foreskin. That isn't the point, and you continuously bringing that up just shows you don't even understand the argument we're attempting to make. [i]So...you want your mother to decide whether you have a future at all, than once she decides, you automaticly get to choose your future?[/i] No, I want my mother to decide whether she wants to have a baby or not if she's still in the first trimester of her pregnancy. Once she takes the option to give birth to me, she better respect the fact that I want a say in my future, because it is ultimately [b]my future[/b]. When she gets an abortion (if, rather), she isn't consciously deciding to terminate my future. She's deciding to not have a baby, end of story. [i]Parents aren't doing it by some twisted thought that they can take advantage of there newborn to mutilate them. It's either a religious or medical choice.[/i] The medical benefits are very small and could easily be matched by the medical consequences, especially if sexual intercourse is less pleasuring without foreskin. Babies are not born into a religion, the parents just choose a religion for the guy and hope he blindly accepts it and doesn't think twice. That is whay my parents did with Christianity. That is what my friend's parents did with Hinduism. But once I was able to make a cognitive decision about my religion, I chose not to have one at all. [i]So you're saying it's ironic I'm against killing a fetus and for the removal of a piece of skin? Yeah. That's totally ironic.[/i] No, what's even more ironic is that you yell at me for apparently twisting your words around when it seems that you are fine with doing it yourself. [i]Most 5 year olds still don't recognise right and wrong, so let them decide if they want their foreskin or not, they don't fully understand death, so they will obviously understand the pros and cons of such a thing.[/i] Okay, you can get circumcised as a teenager, too, I believe. I'm not sure where the age caps out considering when you can get circumcised, but it's probably a bit higher than seven if not [i]a lot[/i] higher than seven. Also, a child doesn't fully understand the usefulness of his arm, either. But I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be very happy if someone came at him with a saw and wanted to cut his arm off. I honestly don't care that you think five-year-olds don't have the cognitive reasoning to look at a pros-and-cons chart and choose whether they want to be circumcized or not. The point is that letting the parents do it isn't logical whatsoever. It's the same goddamn example as the whorehouse, seriously. [i]What I've drawn from your argument is that you'd rather live in a world where everybody has the choice to do whatever the hell they want, and that no-one should have responsibility over another. That a child's happiness is more important than their safety or well-being. If we lived in this type of world, we'd be even better off, wouldn't we? OF COURSE NOT! If parents can't decide for their kids, then every generation would just get worse and worse, until eventually we just fall into anarchy. KIDS DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE NOR THE MIND OF AN ADULT. They cannot make the same rational decisions, because they don't know the full consequences or effects of what may happen. I don't know, to the same extent, what consequences may ensue for my actions as my parents do. To say someone does would be a BS lie. [/i] Blah blah blah, don't let kids have free will. Blah blah blah, it'll be very bad. Blah blah blah, [b]it shall cause anarchy[/b]. Is it bad that I've stopped taking you seriously? I would never say that I'm not intelligent than seventy-year-old man that clearly triples my experience about the world, but I will say that I am more intelligent in the sense that I was able to question my religion which my parents so lovingly chose for me without asking while he lived seventy years blindly following what wasn't even his choice to begin with. If someone makes a cognitive choice to be a Christian, more power to them. But letting parents decide is like letting me decide that your future career is going to be in a whorehouse. Because, face it, I'm doing it for your well-being. You're so stupid that you won't make it anywhere else in the world, so I signed you up for the whorehouse so you can have a steady source of income. I'm so loving! [i]where everybody has the choice to do whatever the hell they want[/i] So you'd rather live in a world where everything is chosen for you? ...hmm, sounds like conservatism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheComposer Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [quote name='Vough' timestamp='1313281858' post='5440583'] Yes, because every parent smokes around their children. Assume that parents in this are smart, as dumb parents would hurt their children even more. Assume the parents are ones that only look for the good of their child. Why don't you want it removed, may I ask? What's so great about it that you want it to stay? I would remove the mole on my left arm instantly. I'm sure you'd want a wart removed, or acne, or anything else. What is your reason you don't want something to meaningless to be removed? [/quote] I'd want a mole to be removed since it could be trouble. It could become harmful. Acne just look ugly. But the foreskin won't harm you. I'd rather leave it there than have my parent's decide for me to cut it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Max Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Dark, I just wanted to say that I love your Long and detailed responses to Topics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vough Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [quote name='TheComposer' timestamp='1313282274' post='5440598'] I'd want a mole to be removed since it could be trouble. It could become harmful. Acne just look ugly. But the foreskin won't harm you. I'd rather leave it there than have my parent's decide for me to cut it off. [/quote] ITT: It doesn't look ugly either. [quote name='Dark' timestamp='1313282265' post='5440597'] [i]I wonder why nobdy has endorsed getting an arm hemmed. I mean it's not like it matters or anything. Not like it does anything for you, like type on the computer, or play sports, or work machinery, or anything. I mean, foreskin totally does all that and more![/i] Sarcasm, hur-hur. Okay, I understand. So you're telling me that I am not allowed to compare cutting off someone's foreskin to cutting off their arm, mainly because the latter is a lot more extreme and has a lot more negat- [i]If you were a parent, I'd assume your child would be a druggee and a father/mother at the age of 13. What's the point of parents if they can't decide what their child does or doesn't do? Would you let a child jump off a bridge if that's what he wants? Or would you save his life?[/i] ...and yet you're perfectly fine with comparing the choice between cutting off foreskin and the choice between saving your child if he's about to jump off a bridge. I don't even know whether to take you serious. [b]I'm not saying that it's not an analogy, I'm saying it's a flawed analogy. You said, "I don't care what's best for him, I care about what he wants." So I'd draw a conclusion to that.[/b] [i]And of course, a child shouldn't make his/her own decisions until they're 18.[/i] BECAUSE I WANT MY PARENTS TO CHOOSE WHAT ELECTIVE I TAKE IN HIGH SCHOOL AND WHAT MY MAJOR IS AND EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT MY LIFE! ^_____^ [b]I hope you knew what I meant[/b]. [i]When has the standard been uncircumcised? 65% of men in America says otherwise. Should parents be allowed corporal punishment, I mean it's their choice, and it does help is some cases, right? Or should a child decide whether he gets spanked by his parents?[/i] No, the standard for any male is uncircumcised. Any male, when born, is uncircumcised. So if there are very few benefits and the benefits are very improbable to take effect, why force a child to go through the circumcision process? And I'm not okay with corporal punishment since it doesn't work the other way around; I can't kick my mom in the shin if she runs a red light, can I? [b]That's what the law is for ^.^[/b] [i]I fail to understand any logical reason why you be signed up in a whorehouse by your...loving...parents. I don't see why my arm would be cut off either. Cutting an arm off affects much more than cutting off a piece of skin. It lowers your job range, college scholarships, etc.[/i] That isnt relevant, take the hypothetical situation proposed that cutting one's arm off has benefits later in life, just like how you believe cutting off foreskin has benefits (which, if the benefits were actually useful, would probably result in circumcision becoming required or at least heavily recommended). You might argue that losing an arm is potentially more of a loss than losing foreskin, but you are still touching my body without giving me a say in the matter. The parallel argument is never exact, I know an arm is not a piece of foreskin. That isn't the point, and you continuously bringing that up just shows you don't even understand the argument we're attempting to make. [b]No, I'm only arguing with you on points that I disagree with. I do not believe cutting off the foreskin has many benefits. I'm saying that if the parents wish to cut off your foreskin for whatever rational reason, whether it be medical or religious, than they should have the right to do it. The principle of the matter is that you are not your own person until you're 18. Until then, they decide a majority of your life, and that is 1 aspect of it. IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY MATTER. Why would a kid whine about not having a piece of ugly skin on their area? As an adult, would you look back at it and say, "I wish my parents didn't get me circumcised, just so I could have the decision not to."[/b] [i]So...you want your mother to decide whether you have a future at all, than once she decides, you automaticly get to choose your future?[/i] No, I want my mother to decide whether she wants to have a baby or not if she's still in the first trimester of her pregnancy. Once she takes the option to give birth to me, she better respect the fact that I want a say in my future, because it is ultimately [b]my future[/b]. When she gets an abortion (if, rather), she isn't consciously deciding to terminate my future. She's deciding to not have a baby, end of story. [b]I disagree. She is consciously denying you a future.[/b] [i]Parents aren't doing it by some twisted thought that they can take advantage of there newborn to mutilate them. It's either a religious or medical choice.[/i] The medical benefits are very small and could easily be matched by the medical consequences, especially if sexual intercourse is less pleasuring without foreskin. Babies are not born into a religion, the parents just choose a religion for the guy and hope he blindly accepts it and doesn't think twice. That is whay my parents did with Christianity. That is what my friend's parents did with Hinduism. But once I was able to make a cognitive decision about my religion, I chose not to have one at all. [b]Atheism is still a religion. It's the religion of not having a God that you consciously worship and/or obey. And I'm genuinely sorry that your parents left you to blindly accept their religion, my parents and all my other friend's parents all made the choice of teaching their children the Bible, correct behaviour, love, etc.[/b] [i]So you're saying it's ironic I'm against killing a fetus and for the removal of a piece of skin? Yeah. That's totally ironic.[/i] No, what's even more ironic is that you yell at me for apparently twisting your words around when it seems that you are fine with doing it yourself. [b]I didn't know it was possible to yell in typed words. Thanks for letting me know. The fact that your consciously unaware of feeding me or whoever you were talking to's words I find laughable.[/b] [i]Most 5 year olds still don't recognise right and wrong, so let them decide if they want their foreskin or not, they don't fully understand death, so they will obviously understand the pros and cons of such a thing.[/i] Okay, you can get circumcised as a teenager, too, I believe. I'm not sure where the age caps out considering when you can get circumcised, but it's probably a bit higher than seven if not [i]a lot[/i] higher than seven. Also, a child doesn't fully understand the usefulness of his arm, either. But I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be very happy if someone came at him with a saw and wanted to cut his arm off. I honestly don't care that you think five-year-olds don't have the cognitive reasoning to look at a pros-and-cons chart and choose whether they want to be circumcized or not. The point is that letting the parents do it isn't logical whatsoever. It's the same goddamn example as the whorehouse, seriously. [b]No, I do not believe a child can understand a pro/con chart when relating it to something purely sensual like that. I would hope a five or seven year old wouldn't know what else it's used for.[/b] [i]What I've drawn from your argument is that you'd rather live in a world where everybody has the choice to do whatever the hell they want, and that no-one should have responsibility over another. That a child's happiness is more important than their safety or well-being. If we lived in this type of world, we'd be even better off, wouldn't we? OF COURSE NOT! If parents can't decide for their kids, then every generation would just get worse and worse, until eventually we just fall into anarchy. KIDS DO NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE NOR THE MIND OF AN ADULT. They cannot make the same rational decisions, because they don't know the full consequences or effects of what may happen. I don't know, to the same extent, what consequences may ensue for my actions as my parents do. To say someone does would be a BS lie. [/i] Blah blah blah, don't let kids have free will. Blah blah blah, it'll be very bad. Blah blah blah, [b]it shall cause anarchy[/b]. [b]Blah blah blah, twisting my words[/b] [b]blah blah blah, twisting my words[/b] [b]blah blah blah, taking statement out of context.[/b] Is it bad that I've stopped taking you seriously? I would never say that I'm not intelligent than seventy-year-old man that clearly triples my experience about the world, but I will say that I am more intelligent in the sense that I was able to question my religion which my parents so lovingly chose for me without asking while he lived seventy years blindly following what wasn't even his choice to begin with. If someone makes a cognitive choice to be a Christian, more power to them. But letting parents decide is like letting me decide that your future career is going to be in a whorehouse. Because, face it, I'm doing it for your well-being. You're so stupid that you won't make it anywhere else in the world, so I signed you up for the whorehouse so you can have a steady source of income. I'm so loving! [b]Yes, because that would totally happen. That's when you call the police and ask for a foster home, as that's against a child's rights. I don't understand why you think, that because I was raised in a Christian home from the start, that I haven't made the choice to follow Jesus? It wasn't forced on me. I enjoy it. I [i]know [/i]God is real, only in the way that a Christian can know, and I'm genuinely sorry you will never get to feel the experience of it.[/b] [i]where everybody has the choice to do whatever the hell they want[/i] So you'd rather live in a world where everything is chosen for you? ...hmm, sounds like conservatism. [b]Thanks for taking my words out of context. Why would you want to live in a lawless world where everybody only lives to satisfy themselves and their desires? Wouldn't you rather there be some choices made for you, rather than choosing everything for yourself without knowing the full consequences or potentially hurting yourself or others?[/b] [/quote] Sorry I typed it all in quotes. Stupid YCM and it's no quoting quotes fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [i]I'm not saying that it's not an analogy, I'm saying it's a flawed analogy. You said, "I don't care what's best for him, I care about what he wants." So I'd draw a conclusion to that.[/i] When did I say that? Circumcision isn't what is necessarily "best for him", and neither is cutting off his arm, and neither is signing him up for a whorehouse. I said a child should have a conscious decision of his own future, not that I don't care what is best for him. Stop taking things out of context and stop putting words in my mouth, since you yourself are so very against that (even though I haven't done it yet). If my son was about to commit suicide, I would try to tell him to stop and get some suicide intervention, but ultimately it is his decision and I cannot [b]force[/b] him to not commit suicide. If you force someone to get a circumcision, is that called good parenting? I don't think so. [i]I hope you knew what I meant.[/i] Nope. You said decisions, so I thought that you meant children, until they turn eighteen, don't have the cognitive brain-power to make any decisions for themselves. So, as a loving parent, I should choose everything for them until they turn eighteen. As a parent, I have a right to choose their major, their friends, whether they get a circumcision or not, and whether they get their arm cut off or not. Saying a child shouldn't make a decision about something that [i]directly affects him[/i] is flawed logic. Again, I will bring you to the whorehouse example. Would you like me to force you to join a whorehouse without asking you permission? No, right? So don't take away my foreskin without asking me. [i]That's what the law is for ^.^[/i] There are other ways to deal with disobedient kids outside of corporal punishment, which psychologically works about as much as torture. It doesn't. See the Corporal Punishment thread in Debates if you want or need any more information on that topic. [i]I'm saying that if the parents wish to cut off your foreskin for whatever rational reason, whether it be medical or religious, than they should have the right to do it. The principle of the matter is that you are not your own person until you're 18.[/i] I'm saying that if the parents wish to cut off your arm for whatever rational reason, regardless of how stupid others may think it is, then they should have the right to do it. Both statements are logical fallacies, I hope you see that. Also, I'm not my own person until I'm eighteen? How long do you take to think up your arguments? Is the unit in nanoseconds? [i]As an adult, would you look back at it and say, "I wish my parents didn't get me circumcised, just so I could have the decision not to."[/i] As an adult, would you look back at it and say, "I wish my parents ddn't get my arm cut off, just so I could have had the decision not to get it cut of." [b]YES.[/b] You aren't getting it; conceptually, foreskin is the same as an arm. So before you post any arguments, think about whether the same argument can apply to an arm or not. I don't care if circumcision is tradition and I don't care if an arm is more useful. [b]CONCEPTUALLY, THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME THING. THEY ARE BOTH SOMETHING ON MY BODY THAT DOESN'T REGARD YOU IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.[/b] [i]I disagree. She is consciously denying you a future.[/i] Definitely. If my mother got an abortion, she would have gotten it because she didn't want me to have a life. It's not because she might not have been ready for a child or because she didn't have the money to support me. It is definitely because she's just a prick like that, and she just was bitchy and didn't want me to have any sort of future. I understand now, thanks. [i]Atheism is still a religion. It's the religion of not having a God that you consciously worship and/or obey. And I'm genuinely sorry that your parents left you to blindly accept their religion, my parents and all my other friend's parents all made the choice of teaching their children the Bible, correct behaviour, love, etc.[/i] Depends how you define religion. In the more broader definitions of religion, atheism is a religion (so are liberalism, conservatism, and socialism). I don't care about your own personal experiences. If you consciously chose to be a Christian, more power to you. But why, of all the religious books out there, did your parents turn to the Bible? You were brought up in a biased household and your parents would have done anything and everything possible to make sure you turned out to be a good, god-fearing Christian. It worked out for them, didn't it? Didn't work out for my parents. [i]The fact that your consciously unaware of feeding me or whoever you were talking to's words I find laughable.[/i] That didn't even make sense. Like, grammatically, that made no sense. And physically, I have no goddamn idea what you're saying. [i]No, I do not believe a child can understand a pro/con chart when relating it to something purely sensual like that. I would hope a five or seven year old wouldn't know what else it's used for.[/i] Maybe you couldn't understand one at five (not sure if you can understand one now), but I'm sure most logical children with a decent bit of intelligence will perfectly be able to make a conscious decision about whether they want a circumcision or not. And if they choose not to have one, good for them. It is their body, it is their penis, so why dick around with it (pun intended)? [i]Blah blah blah, twisting my words[/i] [i]blah blah blah, twisting my words[/i] [i]blah blah blah, taking statement out of context.[/i] IRONY. I LOVE IT. [i]I know God is real, only in the way that a Christian can know, and I'm genuinely sorry you will never get to feel the experience of it.[/i] I know the Invisible Pink Unicorn is real, only in the way that an IPUist can know, and I'm genuinely sorry you will never get to feel the experience of it. Get a brain. Please. [i]Thanks for taking my words out of context.[/i] IRONY. I LOVE IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vough Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [quote name='Dark' timestamp='1313285327' post='5440713'] [i]I'm not saying that it's not an analogy, I'm saying it's a flawed analogy. You said, "I don't care what's best for him, I care about what he wants." So I'd draw a conclusion to that.[/i] When did I say that? Circumcision isn't what is necessarily "best for him", and neither is cutting off his arm, and neither is signing him up for a whorehouse. I said a child should have a conscious decision of his own future, not that I don't care what is best for him. Stop taking things out of context and stop putting words in my mouth, since you yourself are so very against that (even though I haven't done it yet). If my son was about to commit suicide, I would try to tell him to stop and get some suicide intervention, but ultimately it is his decision and I cannot [b]force[/b] him to not commit suicide. If you force someone to get a circumcision, is that called good parenting? I don't think so. [b]A post on this page somewhere. [/b] [b]Yes you have, I'll find examples if you want me to.[/b] [b]So as a parent, you wouldn't do what was absolutely necissary, whether he wanted you to or not? Would your son's life mean more to you than whether you let him do what he wants?[/b] [b]Essentially, "good parenting" is subjective. Some parents think beating is good parenting. I would think that doing something like that to add an extra level of safety would be good parenting. [/b] [i]I hope you knew what I meant.[/i] Nope. You said decisions, so I thought that you meant children, until they turn eighteen, don't have the cognitive brain-power to make any decisions for themselves. So, as a loving parent, I should choose everything for them until they turn eighteen. As a parent, I have a right to choose their major, their friends, whether they get a circumcision or not, and whether they get their arm cut off or not. Saying a child shouldn't make a decision about something that [i]directly affects him[/i] is flawed logic. Again, I will bring you to the whorehouse example. Would you like me to force you to join a whorehouse without asking you permission? No, right? So don't take away my foreskin without asking me. [b]Sorry, I just assumed you had the common sense to know that I meant that major life decisions should only be made by one when they turn 18, and that I didn't mean it in every single freaking way. Even to a smaller degree of controlling what they do or do not do, like going to places, but hopefully a parent would consent with a child first. I honestly don't care that my foreskin is gone. Good riddance. I'm not against that you think that children shouldn't be circumcised without their consent, but it hasn't changed my life in anyway, and I would've gotten one anyway if I were me now. If it mattered that much, then I can assure you I, and a good amount of the 65% of males would have made an uprising. As such, signing in a whorehouse is against a child's rights and is basicly pro child-rape.[/b] [i]That's what the law is for ^.^[/i] There are other ways to deal with disobedient kids outside of corporal punishment, which psychologically works about as much as torture. It doesn't. See the Corporal Punishment thread in Debates if you want or need any more information on that topic. [b]Yeah, show me studies it works as much and as well as torture. I know I'm a changed, disciplined man because my parents spanked me with smooth wood when I did something bad, or cleaned my mouth with soap. The idea is not that they should do it in private, but that they learn that it's a bad thing overall. If corporal punishment works, what does? I'm sure a stern talk-to with a child will definetly let them know something is bad.[/b] [i]I'm saying that if the parents wish to cut off your foreskin for whatever rational reason, whether it be medical or religious, than they should have the right to do it. The principle of the matter is that you are not your own person until you're 18.[/i] I'm saying that if the parents wish to cut off your arm for whatever rational reason, regardless of how stupid others may think it is, then they should have the right to do it. Both statements are logical fallacies, I hope you see that. Also, I'm not my own person until I'm eighteen? How long do you take to think up your arguments? Is the unit in nanoseconds? [b]Yes, because my parents cutting off my arm isn't abuse whatsoever. My foreskin doesn't, and didn't matter. Cutting off my arm...I could die. I doubt anyone has died from a cut of the foreskin. Foreskin matters about as much as a wart. Would you care if your mother got rid of a wart? Of course not. What I meant by own person was that you are "owned" by your parents until you are 18, meaning, while you live in your parent's or guardian's house, they are your dictators.[/b] [i]As an adult, would you look back at it and say, "I wish my parents didn't get me circumcised, just so I could have the decision not to."[/i] As an adult, would you look back at it and say, "I wish my parents ddn't get my arm cut off, just so I could have had the decision not to get it cut of." I'm going to keep [b]YES.[/b] [b]I'm going to keep arguing that an arm and foreskin are too different to compare. Wart, acne, mole, something that is a piece of skin that doesn't matter, because it's basicly comparing a hobo to Bill Gates on who's richer.[/b] You aren't getting it; conceptually, foreskin is the same as an arm. So before you post any arguments, think about whether the same argument can apply to an arm or not. I don't care if circumcision is tradition and I don't care if an arm is more useful. [b]CONCEPTUALLY, THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME THING. THEY ARE BOTH SOMETHING ON MY BODY THAT DOESN'T REGARD YOU IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.[/b] [b]Nothing on your body concerns me. I'm going to keep saying that argument is a complete fallacy and a horrible analogy. A mole, and a piece of foreskin. I would love to get my mole removed. I hate looking at it. I would be happy if my parents got rid of it. [i]IT'S SOMETHING I DON'T NEED AND NEVER WILL NEED.[/i][/b] [i]I disagree. She is consciously denying you a future.[/i] Definitely. If my mother got an abortion, she would have gotten it because she didn't want me to have a life. It's not because she might not have been ready for a child or because she didn't have the money to support me. It is definitely because she's just a prick like that, and she just was bitchy and didn't want me to have any sort of future. I understand now, thanks. [b]Yes, because adoption doesn't exist, and with the money it costs for an abortion, she couldn't have access to any money or someone who had any. I'm not saying that she would because she has the desire to deny life, but she knows that it would someday grow up to be a person, like her, but she still would have had it removed instead of giving it up for adoption or anything[/b]. [i]Atheism is still a religion. It's the religion of not having a God that you consciously worship and/or obey. And I'm genuinely sorry that your parents left you to blindly accept their religion, my parents and all my other friend's parents all made the choice of teaching their children the Bible, correct behaviour, love, etc.[/i] Depends how you define religion. In the more broader definitions of religion, atheism is a religion (so are liberalism, conservatism, and socialism). I don't care about your own personal experiences. If you consciously chose to be a Christian, more power to you. But why, of all the religious books out there, did your parents turn to the Bible? You were brought up in a biased household and your parents would have done anything and everything possible to make sure you turned out to be a good, god-fearing Christian. It worked out for them, didn't it? Didn't work out for my parents. [b]Frankly, I don't care about yours either. I don't care how you, "Questioned my religion", as if I don't do that daily. I consciously chose it, I wasn't threatened, wasn't afraid. I grew into it.[/b] [i]The fact that your consciously unaware of feeding me or whoever you were talking to's words I find laughable.[/i] That didn't even make sense. Like, grammatically, that made no sense. And physically, I have no goddamn idea what you're saying. [b]DANGIT[/b] [b]Your = You're[/b] [b]The fact you are consciously unaware of feeding me words I find laughable[/b] [b]The fact you are consciously unaware of feeding whoever you were talking to's words I find laughable[/b] [b]combine.[/b] [i]No, I do not believe a child can understand a pro/con chart when relating it to something purely sensual like that. I would hope a five or seven year old wouldn't know what else it's used for.[/i] Maybe you couldn't understand one at five (not sure if you can understand one now), but I'm sure most logical children with a decent bit of intelligence will perfectly be able to make a conscious decision about whether they want a circumcision or not. And if they choose not to have one, good for them. It is their body, it is their penis, so why dick around with it (pun intended)? [b]Children are not logical. I hope you know that. Whatever they think is reality to them. If they think they could jump off a building and fly, I'm sure they would still think they good. When I was 2 years old, I thought I literally knew everything there was to know. Yes, I grew out of it (YES, REALLY) One of the measures that I'm sure would be presented would be sexual pleasure, yes? How many 5 year olds know about sex or sexual pleasure?[/b] [i]Blah blah blah, twisting my words[/i] [i]blah blah blah, twisting my words[/i] [i]blah blah blah, taking statement out of context.[/i] IRONY. I LOVE IT. [b]I KNOW RIGHT[/b] [i]I know God is real, only in the way that a Christian can know, and I'm genuinely sorry you will never get to feel the experience of it.[/i] I know the Invisible Pink Unicorn is real, only in the way that an IPUist can know, and I'm genuinely sorry you will never get to feel the experience of it. [b]I genuinely wanted to see how you would react to that. [/b] Get a brain. Please. [b]Acting like a child, how funny.[/b] [i]Thanks for taking my words out of context.[/i] IRONY. I LOVE IT. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarven King Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 I feel like I just read a science book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Revan of the Sith Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [quote name='Dwarven King' timestamp='1313293515' post='5441262'] I feel like I just read a science book. [/quote] Thats Dark for ya... Except hes more of a math guy but whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vough Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 [quote name='Dwarven King' timestamp='1313293515' post='5441262'] I feel like I just read a science book. [/quote] Wut Religion abortion circumcision cutting off arms parenting how did you get that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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