Wait, what? How can they just remove Priority?

[Lonk]

I see now. Ignition definitely needs to leave if it causes needless confusion in the TCG (I get resolution confused with activation).

[DARKPLANT RISING]

[img]http://troll.me/images/bedtime-hitler/this-thread-makes-no-sense.jpg[/img]

Besides, the whole idea of someone who retired several years ago bragging about something about the game is retarded.

[evilfusion]

Skill Drain wouldn't stop Rabbit, but Veiler, Book of Moon, etc would.

It might be an exaggeration to say that without missing the timing, certain cards would be broken, but a lot of cards would become significantly BETTER, even ones that are already good. We complain about power creep enough without changing a mechanic to make more cards more powerful. Removing priority from Ignition makes good cards more balanced.

[J-Max]

I don't get it at all. Say I activate Mirror Force then the opponent activates something like Dark Bribe, DB becomes the priority right? Urgh my head!

[Lonk]

[quote name='J-Max' timestamp='1324430023' post='5720252']
I don't get it at all. Say I activate Mirror Force then the opponent activates something like Dark Bribe, DB becomes the priority right? Urgh my head!
[/quote]
No. That is Speed Spell. Speed Spell has nothing to do with Priority.

[evilfusion]

[quote name='J-Max' timestamp='1324430023' post='5720252']
I don't get it at all. Say I activate Mirror Force then the opponent activates something like Dark Bribe, DB becomes the priority right? Urgh my head!
[/quote]

...

No, not at all.

Priority is the right of the Turn Player to perform an action or activate an effect as Chain Link 1. Priority passes to the opponent between effects before you get another chance to chain. If both players agree not to activate anything further, the chain resolves.

Ignition Effects are (usually Monster) Effects that can only be activated in the Turn Player's Main Phase, such as Brionac. The Priority rule is that you can use Turn Player Priority to activate that effect (Ignition Effects are Spell Speed 1 and cannot chain) as soon as a monster is successfully Summoned, before your opponent can respond to the Summon with Bottomless or similar (Summon negation occurs before the monster is on the field, so priority doesn't come into play here).

Without Ignition Priority, if you Summon Brionac, you'd still have Turn Player Priority to activate a card in reaction to you Summoning a monster (Summoning doesn't start a chain, so you retain priority), but you cannot activate the Ignition Effect until your opponent has been given the option to respond to the Summon.

Cards don't have Priority. Players do.

If you declare an attack (doesn't start a chain) you retain priority to activate Trigger Effects like Number 39, Number 96, or cards like Magician's Circle. If you have nothing to activate at that time, priority passes to your opponent and he can activate Mirror Force to the attack declaration. Priority passes back to you, and you can use Dark Bribe. Priority passes back to the opponent. They cannot respond, and you have nothing further to add. The chain resolves.

Another example: If you activate Heavy Storm, priority passes to your opponent and they can choose whether to chain anything before you can chain your Starlight Road. If they don't chain, you get priority back and can flip Starlight.

IMPORTANT TO NOTE: The only priority that has been removed in the OCG is the Priority on Ignition Effects. All other Priority rules remain.

[Dr. Cakey]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1324430631' post='5720265']
...

No, not at all.

Priority is the right of the Turn Player to perform an action or activate an effect as Chain Link 1. Priority passes to the opponent between effects before you get another chance to chain. If both players agree not to activate anything further, the chain resolves.

Ignition Effects are (usually Monster) Effects that can only be activated in the Turn Player's Main Phase, such as Brionac. The Priority rule is that you can use Turn Player Priority to activate that effect (Ignition Effects are Spell Speed 1 and cannot chain) as soon as a monster is successfully Summoned, before your opponent can respond to the Summon with Bottomless or similar (Summon negation occurs before the monster is on the field, so priority doesn't come into play here).

Without Ignition Priority, if you Summon Brionac, you'd still have Turn Player Priority to activate a card in reaction to you Summoning a monster (Summoning doesn't start a chain, so you retain priority), but you cannot activate the Ignition Effect until your opponent has been given the option to respond to the Summon.

Cards don't have Priority. Players do.

If you declare an attack (doesn't start a chain) you retain priority to activate Trigger Effects like Number 39, Number 96, or cards like Magician's Circle. If you have nothing to activate at that time, priority passes to your opponent and he can activate Mirror Force to the attack declaration. Priority passes back to you, and you can use Dark Bribe. Priority passes back to the opponent. They cannot respond, and you have nothing further to add. The chain resolves.

Another example: If you activate Heavy Storm, priority passes to your opponent and they can choose whether to chain anything before you can chain your Starlight Road. If they don't chain, you get priority back and can flip Starlight.

IMPORTANT TO NOTE: The only priority that has been removed in the OCG is the Priority on Ignition Effects. All other Priority rules remain.
[/quote]
I HAVE ANNOUNCEMENT. EVILFUSION = VREY SMART. LISTEN TO HIM.

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1324430631' post='5720265']
...

No, not at all.

Priority is the right of the Turn Player to perform an action or activate an effect as Chain Link 1. Priority passes to the opponent between effects before you get another chance to chain. If both players agree not to activate anything further, the chain resolves.

Ignition Effects are (usually Monster) Effects that can only be activated in the Turn Player's Main Phase, such as Brionac. The Priority rule is that you can use Turn Player Priority to activate that effect (Ignition Effects are Spell Speed 1 and cannot chain) as soon as a monster is successfully Summoned, before your opponent can respond to the Summon with Bottomless or similar (Summon negation occurs before the monster is on the field, so priority doesn't come into play here).

Without Ignition Priority, if you Summon Brionac, you'd still have Turn Player Priority to activate a card in reaction to you Summoning a monster (Summoning doesn't start a chain, so you retain priority), but you cannot activate the Ignition Effect until your opponent has been given the option to respond to the Summon.

Cards don't have Priority. Players do.

If you declare an attack (doesn't start a chain) you retain priority to activate Trigger Effects like Number 39, Number 96, or cards like Magician's Circle. If you have nothing to activate at that time, priority passes to your opponent and he can activate Mirror Force to the attack declaration. Priority passes back to you, and you can use Dark Bribe. Priority passes back to the opponent. They cannot respond, and you have nothing further to add. The chain resolves.

Another example: If you activate Heavy Storm, priority passes to your opponent and they can choose whether to chain anything before you can chain your Starlight Road. If they don't chain, you get priority back and can flip Starlight.

IMPORTANT TO NOTE: The only priority that has been removed in the OCG is the Priority on Ignition Effects. All other Priority rules remain.
[/quote]
Just a note on the ignition priority, I've noticed that it also includes the right of the turn player to respond to the finishing of any action, say discarding a card or the completed resolution of a chain.

[evilfusion]

[quote name='Twilight Sparkle' timestamp='1324437452' post='5720464']
Just a note on the ignition priority, I've noticed that it also includes the right of the turn player to respond to the finishing of any action, say discarding a card or the completed resolution of a chain.
[/quote]

If I interpreted that correctly, you are saying that Ignition Effects can only be used once the last action has been confirmed to not have a response from the opponent, and not strictly at the timing a monster was Summoned.

Not entirely sure what kind of example(s) you are thinking of, since the only recorded change in priority ruling was when a monster was Summoned, although I fully understand what you're saying. I'm just lacking a mental example.

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1324438188' post='5720496']
If I interpreted that correctly, you are saying that Ignition Effects can only be used once the last action has been confirmed to not have a response from the opponent, and not strictly at the timing a monster was Summoned.

Not entirely sure what kind of example(s) you are thinking of, since the only recorded change in priority ruling was when a monster was Summoned, although I fully understand what you're saying. I'm just lacking a mental example.
[/quote]
On WC11, every time at the end of a resolution the game would ask me if I would activate x ignition effect.

For example, Brionac on field. I activate Hand Destruction, goes through. Afterwards it would say "A card(s) has been sent to the Graveyard, would you like to activate the effect of a card", and if I say yes, Brionac is an available option to activate.

[werewolfjedi]

that's just the game and it's weird way of saying "hey everything done, do you want to do something else this turn?
I turn it off because it really doesn't help.

[Chaos Pudding]

The thing I have against Missing the Timing is that there's nothing on the cards themselves that indicate that they miss timings. The fact that optional trigger effects don't happen unless they're at the ends of chains makes NO sense.

The thing I have against removing Priority is that it actually DOES make sense. If a card can do something the turn it's Summoned, then doing something in response to its Summoning that doesn't actually counter it shouldn't stop the effect from happening or even being able to trigger. It's an arbitrary rule change so that Konami doesn't have to bother with banning problem cards.

[evilfusion]

Unless you're complaining that the card texts don't explicitly state "This card can miss the timing", reading the cards with a basic understanding of the card grammar is all you need to know if a card misses the timing or not.

In any case Trigger Effects aren't the only cards that deal with timing. Most Trap cards follow the same logic for their activations, and a number of them can "miss the timing" just like any Trigger Effect. Missing the timing is just an unfortunate consequence of regulating card activations so that the flow of gameplay isn't a constant maze of "But you did that earlier, so I can do this!"

[Welche the crab]

My real question is who is better at rulings, Evilfusion or Darkwolf777?

[evilfusion]

[quote name='Welche' timestamp='1324449245' post='5720676']
My real question is who is better at rulings, Evilfusion or Darkwolf777?
[/quote]

Darkwolf.

I'm likely just under him, though.

[Welche the crab]

Ya I was thinking that because you asked a question which he answered. Are any YCMembers judges?

[evilfusion]

I pretty much learned most of my knowledge from his answers in the Rulings thread until I grasped enough to be confident answering almost everything since.

[Welche the crab]

FYI you have 1060ish posts, he has 1005 posts in the thread. Or the opposite.

[evilfusion]

I didn't even know you could see individuals' post counts...but yeah, you're right.

[Blake]

Burnpsy is a judge =o

[Ieyasu Tokugawa]

[quote name='Chaos Pudding' timestamp='1324443295' post='5720587']
The thing I have against removing Priority is that it actually DOES make sense. If a card can do something the turn it's Summoned, then doing something in response to its Summoning that doesn't actually counter it shouldn't stop the effect from happening or even being able to trigger. It's an arbitrary rule change so that Konami doesn't have to bother with banning problem cards.
[/quote]
Idgi.

[Chaos Pudding]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1324449196' post='5720675']
Unless you're complaining that the card texts don't explicitly state "This card can miss the timing", reading the cards with a basic understanding of the card grammar is all you need to know if a card misses the timing or not.

In any case Trigger Effects aren't the only cards that deal with timing. Most Trap cards follow the same logic for their activations, and a number of them can "miss the timing" just like any Trigger Effect. Missing the timing is just an unfortunate consequence of regulating card activations so that the flow of gameplay isn't a constant maze of "But you did that earlier, so I can do this!"
[/quote]

Why would that mean that? If X happened that allowed Y trigger to occur (if a card has a triggered effect that happens when it hits the grave), then that effect should be allowed to occur not matter what else happens in the chain. Why wouldn't it, except for Missing the Timing? Nowhere do any cards that miss the timing say "If anything happens between this card's triggered effect triggering and being able to resolve, it does not resolve instead."

[darkwolf777]

[quote name='-Noel-' timestamp='1324428631' post='5720213']
No, it RESOLVES at the Banished Zone.
[/quote]

Cards resolve in the same place they activated in. Such a thing was an old misconception of myself included when trying to understand a reasoning for things like Skill Drain, but wherever a card activated is the same place it resolves in, even if its moved elsewhere between activation and resolution.

[quote name='Chaos Pudding' timestamp='1324457656' post='5720774']
Why would that mean that? If X happened that allowed Y trigger to occur (if a card has a triggered effect that happens when it hits the grave), then that effect should be allowed to occur not matter what else happens in the chain. Why wouldn't it, except for Missing the Timing? Nowhere do any cards that miss the timing say "If anything happens between this card's triggered effect triggering and being able to resolve, it does not resolve instead."
[/quote]

"When... You can..." is the only phrase that can miss the timing. If "You can" is not listed, making it mandatory, it will not miss the timing. If it says "If... You Can..." it will not miss the timing. The player handbooks only cover the surface rules in the game and don't even touch upon the subtleties lying underneath, especially in terms of "Missing the Timing", "Summoning from the Graveyard/Banished for Semi-Nomi/Nomi monsters", "The various steps of the Damage Step", "Damage Step activation rules and specifics", and plenty more. All of these things you only get from reading rulings and trying to match the rulings to some sort of unspoken logic that is indeed in the game somewhere, but never officially explained. Once you can see those unexplained rulings, it becomes easier to rule for any card scenario regarding it.



In any case, People who simply says "Priority should be gone" do not understand what priority actually is. Those who are talking about a player's ability to activate an Ignition Effect Monsters effect upon a monster's summon understand it a little better. The rule for priority basically is "The Turn Player has the right to activate a Spell Speed 2 or higher card effect in response to an action first". There just happens to be a giant exception in regards to the rule that: "EXCEPTION: When a monster is summoned, the turn player has the right to activate an Ignition Effect Monster's effect along with "Spell Speed 2 or higher" effects." The OCG got rid of that exception and it allowed for cards like BLS to come back and JD to come back to 3 again. With this exception allowed in the TCG though, these cards are a lot stronger than they need to be. If both players pass, then a turn player's natural priority is obtained where that player may perform Normal/Synchro/etc Summons or activate Spell Speed 1 effects.

Remember that Ignition Effects are Spell Speed 1. With the way the OCG is now, Spell Speed 1 effect cannot be activated in response to any action. The current TCG ruling has the "Ignition Monster Effect on Monster Summon" exception still in effect. With all the ruling issues on DN, this allows players to try and "CALL PRIORITY" (this nub term) into their Ignition Effects to think their effects cannot be stopped by anything. Generally, opponents do not understand that they do not have a right to activate a card effect until the turn player passes priority to them. Turn Players don't understand that they must say something in order to pass priority. "I waited X amount of time" doesn't cut it =/

In any case, one big issue is with something like BLS and Chaos Sorcerer. Yes, the Turn Player currently has the right to activate an Ignition Effect Monster's effect in response to its summon (or any Ignition monster's summon for that matter, it doesn't have to be that same monster). For BLS, it has two effects, an Ignition (which would prevent it from being able to battle) and the Trigger (which needs to destroy in battle to activate). Many players in their mind would be "i'm going to use BLS' effect to destroy both his monsters by battle...", but when they continue or the opposing player activates something like Bottomless, then they're all "NOPE NOPE, I "CALL PRIORITY" ON BLS TO ACTIVATE ITS BANISH EFFECT", which is not how it works at all. When BLS is summoned, the Turn Player must make the decision whether or not to activate BLS' Ignition Effect (or any other Spell Speed 2 or Ignition Monster Effect) at that time. Once verbal confirmation is given that they will not be activating any effect, Opponent has priority to activate Bottomless Trap Hole. At this time, the Turn Player DOES NOT HAVE THE OPTION of Chaining BLS to Bottomless (due to Spell Speeds) or trying to "CALL PRIORITY" to force BLS' first effect as Chain Link #1, yet most of DN seems to think so, which is rather annoying to rule time and time again.

Very few people understand the mechanics behind Yugioh because NONE OF IT IS REALLY EXPLAINED IN DEPTH. Those who take the time to understand those underlying rulings will have a better time playing with those who understand them as well, as well as rule newer effects on their own with greater judgment. Those who are new or don't care to understand will be the ones who get crazy when something doesn't work the way they wanted because they didn't understand why it wouldn't work, though that happens to all of us anyway with this crazy game.

And yes, of course, Yugioh is a bad game. While realizing that may have stopped some of us from playing, it probably didn't stop us from staying just a little longer before doing so (or from even coming back to it).

[Greiga]

Wait, so Skill Drain can't stop Stardust or Exiled Force?

[darkwolf777]

[quote name='GreigaBeastDS' timestamp='1324479161' post='5720937']
Wait, so Skill Drain can't stop Stardust or Exiled Force?
[/quote]

No, because when Stardust or Exiled Force resolve, they are not face-up on the field to be negated by Skill Drain anymore (as Skill Drain specifies only face-up monsters on the field will be negated, which they are no longer are). This doesn't just apply to monsters that Tribute themselves though. Any monster can avoid Skill Drain by activating their effect, then chaining an effect which would otherwise not fit the criteria of "face-up on the field", such as setting it with Book of Moon, or removing it from the field.

Also note that activating an effect which would bring it back to the field, such as activating Exiled Force, then chaining Call of the Haunted to bring back that same Exiled Force will not cause the effect to fail since the newly Special Summoned Exiled Force is NOT considered the same Exiled Force that once was on the field. This also applies to effects where the monster activated the effect, then in the Chain Link #2 an effect flips a monster face-up and Chain Link #3 is something like Book Of Moon. When resolving, the monster is flipped face-down by Book, then flipped back up by Chain Link #2. Chain Link #1 will still resolve as the now face-up monster that was flipped face-down is not considered by the field to be the one which activated the effect. The one that activated the effect disappeared via Book of Moon (or when it was removed from the field), never to be seen again, hence why you can generally activate "Once per turn" effects again when a monster was removed or flipped face-down.