Arizona to ban trolling lol.

[Tentacruel]

I fail to see how anything directly taking away freedom can be a good thing. That's all this bill would do, prevent expression. As you said, you can already sue for criminal harassment, they want to criminalize [i]trolling[/i]. Not cyber-bullying, anything that could be taken as "offensive."

[Icy]

[quote name='Comrade Trollestia' timestamp='1333681780' post='5903384']
And that's why the bill shouldn't pass. Everyone on this site would go to prison.

Everyone.
[/quote]

So revise the bill. The whole point I'm supporting is that it's a GIANT STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. And proper trolling (like what Frunk did to J-Max) is criminal harassment. All he'd have to do is check the laws in London and if sufficient proof is given (and extradition laws cover this), they can go to court.

@Vairocana: Redundant, someone somewhere knows what you're doing. All they have to is suspect you and they can trace you.

[.Requiem]

[quote name='Icy' timestamp='1333681714' post='5903381']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition"]Wrong.[/url]
[/quote]
Alright, find me a judge that is going to let the authorities go on a wild goose chase for someone out of their jurisdiction.

[Icy]

[quote name='.Requiem' timestamp='1333682007' post='5903395']
Alright, find me a judge that is going to let the authorities go on a wild goose chase for someone out of their jurisdiction.
[/quote]

Warrant for a track on an IP, thats all. Its a relatively fast process anyway and no amount of proxies can save you if your ISP is the one who is contacted. And don't tell me proxy websites are immune, they aren't anymore and haven't been. MegaUpload, I will miss thee.

[.Requiem]

[quote name='Icy' timestamp='1333682253' post='5903399']
Warrant for a track on an IP, thats all. Its a relatively fast process anyway and no amount of proxies can save you if your ISP is the one who is contacted. And don't tell me proxy websites are immune, they aren't anymore and haven't been. MegaUpload, I will miss thee.
[/quote]

Don't compare harassment with the MegaUpload incident. MegaUpload was part a multimillion dollar scheme and the only reason why it was shutdown is because it had servers in the United States. You also get into a grey area because what happens on the internet doesn't cross state lines. I am going to doubt that a state is going to let another state push it around because of one kid doing stupid s*** on the internet. We know that kids watch porn on the internet? So why don't we track down all the kids who watch porn and arrest them? Or the ones who illegally download music?

[Icy]

[quote name='.Requiem' timestamp='1333682657' post='5903404']
Don't compare harassment with the MegaUpload incident. MegaUpload was part a multimillion dollar scheme and the only reason why it was shutdown is because it had servers in the United States. You also get into a grey area because what happens on the internet doesn't cross state lines. I am going to doubt that a state is going to let another state push it around because of one kid doing stupid s*** on the internet. We know that kids watch porn on the internet? So why don't we track down all the kids who watch porn and arrest them? Or the ones who illegally download music?
[/quote]

An example of the lack of immunity on such things, my sincerest apologies for the misinterpretation and lack of clarity on my part (I do miss megaupload too I used it to upload my PSD's T_T). And yes, that is true but Harassment is seen as a far more serious crime than pinching one off or listening to stolen sound. Also, I did make note of turning it into a Federal Law for that exact reason.

[.Requiem]

[quote name='Icy' timestamp='1333682856' post='5903407']
An example of the lack of immunity on such things, my sincerest apologies for the misinterpretation and lack of clarity on my part (I do miss megaupload too I used it to upload my PSD's T_T). And yes, that is true but Harassment is seen as a far more serious crime than pinching one off or listening to stolen sound. Also, I did make note of turning it into a Federal Law for that exact reason.
[/quote]
That's a fair point, people already pushing for anti-bullies laws. I just don't like how broad the Arizona law is and if it does become a federal law states are allowed to interpret federal laws different to a certain extent. Also, just another point you mentioned about proxies being immune. If you bounce information off multiply systems it would be impossible to trace the information say as IP. The only thing that can be monitored is where it ends up and if the same person logs onto the system again, but they would not know anything about the person.

[Icy]

[quote name='.Requiem' timestamp='1333683436' post='5903422']
That's a fair point, people already pushing for anti-bullies laws. I just don't like how broad the Arizona law is and if it does become a federal law states are allowed to interpret federal laws different to a certain extent. Also, just another point you mentioned about proxies being immune. If you bounce information off multiply systems it would be impossible to trace the information say as IP. The only thing that can be monitored is where it ends up and if the same person logs onto the system again, but they would not know anything about the person.
[/quote]

It just makes it far more tedious to track. And it works in cases like using Phones because the information doesn't necessarily have to stream directly to the user and have files that are automatically created to mark it; texts though are really easy to track. On one end, yes you are invisible but from your computer you still have to go through your Modem/line and through to the proxy sites. So your provider really just has to check the bounce back information. And website owners to Proxy Sites I'm pretty sure has to supply the information of what poked into where.

If you really wanna be immune to this, disable that unique thing that makes your computer traceable and harass someone from a McDonalds or Starbucks.

[.Requiem]

[quote name='Icy' timestamp='1333683715' post='5903429']
It just makes it far more tedious to track. And it works in cases like using Phones because the information doesn't necessarily have to stream directly to the user and have files that are automatically created to mark it; texts though are really easy to track. On one end, yes you are invisible but from your computer you still have to go through your Modem/line and through to the proxy sites. So your provider really just has to check the bounce back information. And website owners to Proxy Sites I'm pretty sure has to supply the information of what poked into where.

If you really wanna be immune to this, disable that unique thing that makes your computer traceable and harass someone from a McDonalds or Starbucks.
[/quote]

Hold on, I am trying to find the program/article that does what I was saying. What I was describing is a bit different form of proxy. The organization that runs it gives this program out for free and a network of people supply their networks to be used. The program is designed to bounce off different networks at random making it impossible to trace. The network keeps changing so you cannot track any information that is on the system. The only known security flaw with the system is that you can see where it comes out and what goes in.(This part I can't really describe in more detail because I forgot much of the article.) Though no information can be seen.

[Tentacruel]

[quote name='Icy' timestamp='1333682000' post='5903394']
So revise the bill. The whole point I'm supporting is that it's a GIANT STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. And proper trolling (like what Frunk did to J-Max) is criminal harassment. All he'd have to do is check the laws in London and if sufficient proof is given (and extradition laws cover this), they can go to court.
[/quote]

Thing is, that direction is kind of subjective. "The right direction" in this case, is more government control. Of course I'm against bullying, but I don't personally believe that it's something that should be brought to court.

[Hydra of Ages]

[quote name='.Requiem' timestamp='1333684129' post='5903439']
Hold on, I am trying to find the program/article that does what I was saying. What I was describing is a bit different form of proxy. The organization that runs it gives this program out for free and a network of people supply their networks to be used. The program is designed to bounce off different networks at random making it impossible to trace. The network keeps changing so you cannot track any information that is on the system. The only known security flaw with the system is that you can see where it comes out and what goes in.(This part I can't really describe in more detail because I forgot much of the article.) Though no information can be seen.
[/quote]

This is TOR. TOR is already in use for hiding a number of disgustingly illegal things, mountains of child pornography being just the tip of the iceburg, and I have no doubt that the regular authorities would be essentially incapable of working against it, but that's somewhat mitigated in that typically only massive techies, channers or pedophiles actually use it. There's a bit of overlap between those three, unfortunately.

[Wave_Sine]

So a bit late to voice comments about Frunk hating PC because he banned/baited J-Max...

OT: ...*sigh* This is just going to rile up 4chan and Anon. That's never a good thing. Anon only gets involved if they're bored or if they're being attacked. And the fallout is always worse if they're being attacked.

...I'll be surprised if some Arizona government site hasn't been DDOS'd by this time tomorrow.

[Vairocana]

So.....how are they going to prove that it was me and not someone using my computer to post anonymously?

Kind of the ultimate problem with these kinds of laws, at the end of the day, you can't concretely prove that it was THIS PERSON who did it.

[Cin]

Beebo is a social network, I understand where you're coming from though.

[Icy]

[quote name='Vairocana' timestamp='1333690647' post='5903519']
So.....how are they going to prove that it was me and not someone using my computer to post anonymously?

Kind of the ultimate problem with these kinds of laws, at the end of the day, you can't concretely prove that it was THIS PERSON who did it.
[/quote]

Standard Police Investigation Process after they track it down. Simple. It's not a problem, because if you aren't found guilty then obviously someone would have a clue to whom.

[Flame Dragon]

The things I've always wondered is how do you uphold the bill when the internet is a worldwide medium? Like, what can they do if someone in Japan is "trolling" someone is Arizona?

Anyway, the bill is more so targetting harassment not trolling, and really, that should already be a crime since lord knows that that had caused. It is being called trolling just to rufle the feathers of internet users.

[Tentacruel]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1333755300' post='5904365']
The things I've always wondered is how do you uphold the bill when the internet is a worldwide medium? Like, what can they do if someone in Japan is "trolling" someone is Arizona?

Anyway, the bill is more so targetting harassment not trolling, and really, that should already be a crime since lord knows that that had caused. It is being called trolling just to rufle the feathers of internet users.
[/quote]

If they want to make a bill targeting actual harassment, that's fine. The current bill is way way too broad. They should really try to narrow it to specify situations where someone is actually attacking someone else.


So out of curiosity, what would you guys consider harassment on the internet?

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Comrade Trollestia' timestamp='1333768163' post='5904679']
If they want to make a bill targeting actual harassment, that's fine. The current bill is way way too broad. They should really try to narrow it to specify situations where someone is actually attacking someone else.


So out of curiosity, what would you guys consider harassment on the internet?
[/quote]
I would argue that making it broad also makes it harder to nail down a case. Sure it might lead to more trials, but it less people would be found guilty.

But I'm no legal expert so it is hard to say. Same with what is harassement. However I'm sure their are already laws regarding harassment so they really should just carry over to the internet.

[Tentacruel]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1333769621' post='5904700']
I would argue that making it broad also makes it harder to nail down a case. Sure it might lead to more trials, but it less people would be found guilty.

But I'm no legal expert so it is hard to say. Same with what is harassement. However I'm sure their are already laws regarding harassment so they really should just carry over to the internet.
[/quote]
*Nods in vague agreement*

I think one reason people are pushing for this is because politicians and/or courts have been hesitant to react to harassment on the internet.

Maybe.

[Legend Zero]

Wish America was half this adamant about the environment.

[Miror B]

[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1333774627' post='5904764']
Wish America was half this adamant about the environment.
[/quote]
I don't know about you but I do believe we are very adamant about abusing the environment's resources.

[Dwarven King]

[quote name='Tsukasa Hiiragi' timestamp='1333776567' post='5904785']
I don't know about you but I do believe we are very adamant about abusing the environment's resources.
[/quote]

Yeah bro. Learn America before you try to be mean! D:<

OT: Silly Government, internet is for nerds. :3

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Tsukasa Hiiragi' timestamp='1333776567' post='5904785']
I don't know about you but I do believe we are very adamant about abusing the environment's resources.
[/quote]
Yes, but the problem is getting the government to do anything of substance about it.

But that is a subject for a WHOLE other thread.

[Dwarven King]

FD, I think you misunderstood the post.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='Dwarven King' timestamp='1333776771' post='5904791']
FD, I think you misunderstood the post.
[/quote]
Yea I did. I think I adamant as something like admitent (I know that isn't a word) so I thought the post was saying Americans know full well how bad we are with the environment.