RyanAtlus Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 As long as I can remember, people here on YCM have been stating alternate win conditions are bad for the game. Now, let's be honest. All of the current existing win conditions are quite hard to win with. In fact, most of them are so depressingly impossible to use nobody in their right mind would even consider using them. The only 2 that are mildly useable are: +Exodia the Forbidden One +Final Countdown I do not think either of these damage the game. The reason why one might say their [i]Decks[/i] damage the game as a whole, is due to obscene draw power and ridiculous amounts of stall. So, what I'm trying to say is that these [i]factors[/i] are bad for the game, and that they probably shouldn't even be present in a healthy metagame. I'm looking at you guys, One Day and Car D. But, it seems to me that YCM aggrees on the fact that, if we should choose between putting the win conditions on the list or the cards that generate the engine to win with them, it would definitely be the win conditions. Yes, I'm as serious as possible. No, I'm not trying to bash YCM and its members. All I want is a logical explanation why the existance of these win conditions or their card designs are bad for the game... Don't just give me "THESE CARDS ARE BAD FOR THE GAME AND IF YOU'RE TOO DUMB TO BELIEVE IT YOU'RE DUMB.", like people usually do when I say these win conditions shouldn't ever be banned. And, just to complete the list, you can also discuss how fcking depressingly bad the other alternate win conditions are: +Exodius the Ultimate Forbidden Lord +Destiny Board +Vennominaga +Horakthy (+Last Turn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Exodia: 1. DRAW DRAW DRAW DRAW I WIN! 2. DRAW DRAW DRAW DRAW NO EXODIA I FORFEIT! Final Countdown: 1. STALL STALL STALL STALL I WIN! 2. NO COUNTDOWN FORFEIT! Destiny board is stupid bad and easy to overcome. Vennominaga is hard to get out and will probably win you the game by Life Points anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~British Soul~ Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 to add, the decks reduce player-player interraction, which isn't good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Because alt wins are considered terrible design by utterly ruining the fun in games, ruining player interactions, and ridiculously hard to design as a balanced thing anyway. As far as I'm aware,conly MtG created good alt wins. Pokemon created an abusable one, and YGO ones are either broken or bad. And game =/= metagame. Game = metagame + casual play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanAtlus Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 So, they reduce player interaction? I'll make some notes on how that is bad for YGO next time I'm getting Winduploop'd on turn 1 or while Inzektors are making their +4, it's not like I have something else to do during those moments. I understand the arument, but I'll refer to the title post. The random DRAW DRAW DRAW and STALL STALL STALL cards are what make the Decks boring to duel against. Back in my days, we had to search Exodia parts instead of just drawing 30 cards in one turn, and all we had to play Countdown with were crappy semi-locks. You kids these days with your Swift Scarecrow and your Card Car D and your Battlefader and your Pot of Duality and your other lame engines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSektor Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 It's funny because some cards were banned because of the Exodia like Mind Master and Elma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catterjune Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 I believe at the end of the day the main problem with alternate win conditions is that they're less a game of skill and more a game of luck. Stuff like Exodia is by default luck based, and if Yu-Gi-Oh ever hopes to take itself seriously it should be a game more focused on skill, not luck. The problem is then if the alt win condition is too consistent or not consitent enough. It's a fine line to walk. If the alt win is too consistent, it's bannable. If the alt win isn't consistent enough it sucks. Ultimately alt wins are completely binary. Either you win or you lose. [quote]So, they reduce player interaction? I'll make some notes on how that is bad for YGO next time I'm getting Winduploop'd on turn 1 or while Inzektors are making their +4, it's not like I have something else to do during those moments.[/quote] >Imply good players don't think Winduploops or Inzektors aren't bad for the game. [quote]It's funny because some cards were banned because of the Exodia like Mind Master and Elma. [/quote] There are many more things you can do with being allowed to draw endlessly in a duel other then "Exodia! GG!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334598953' post='5915692'] So, they reduce player interaction? I'll make some notes on how that is bad for YGO next time I'm getting Winduploop'd on turn 1 or while Inzektors are making their +4, it's not like I have something else to do during those moments. I understand the arument, but I'll refer to the title post. The random DRAW DRAW DRAW and STALL STALL STALL cards are what make the Decks boring to duel against. Back in my days, we had to search Exodia parts instead of just drawing 30 cards in one turn, and all we had to play Countdown with were crappy semi-locks. You kids these days with your Swift Scarecrow and your Card Car D and your Battlefader and your Pot of Duality and your other lame engines... [/quote] All alt win conditions do in this case is put your opponents on a clock to losing. When the game is simply you searching and them trying to not lose, the game is still boring. It's irrelevant which way the deck's played, it's still bad design. And, yes, all loops are bad design so they should have never been made anyway either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanAtlus Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1334599038' post='5915693'] It's funny because some cards were banned because of the Exodia like Mind Master and Elma. [/quote] I believe Mind Master had several OTKs of its own, and Elma @1 would give you a chance to draw into any OTK or just raise your LP to 100000000000000000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Mind Master was banned because you can't ban 300 Psychic-Types. Elma was a retarded card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSektor Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='Hatcher' timestamp='1334599253' post='5915696'] There are many more things you can do with being allowed to draw endlessly in a duel other then "Exodia! GG!" [/quote] [quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334599320' post='5915699'] I believe Mind Master had several OTKs of its own, and Elma @1 would give you a chance to draw into any OTK or just raise your LP to 100000000000000000. [/quote] I'm just saying that every time that Konami makes a card they need to stop and think "oh my god, what if this card makes Exodia better? lets nerf it." I know that Mind Master and Elma are broken without Exodia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manjoume Thunder Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 the problem is that alt. win conditions are either done as ftks or by stalling both of which are bad for the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334598953' post='5915692'] So, they reduce player interaction? I'll make some notes on how that is bad for YGO next time I'm getting Winduploop'd on turn 1 or while Inzektors are making their +4, it's not like I have something else to do during those moments.= [/quote] Most people say the Wind-Up loop and Inzekter combo need to go too :/[quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1334599574' post='5915701'] I'm just saying that every time that Konami makes a card they need to stop and think "oh my god, what if this card makes Exodia better? lets nerf it." [/quote] Or just ban exodia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSektor Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='Tsukasa Hiiragi' timestamp='1334600035' post='5915704']Or just ban exodia.[/quote] Exactly. I hope that Konami bans only the head so I can make a rabbit exodia and *shot* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanAtlus Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='Tsukasa Hiiragi' timestamp='1334600035' post='5915704'] Or just ban exodia. [/quote] Or stop making stuff that makes Exodia consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334600574' post='5915716'] Or stop making stuff that makes Exodia consistent. [/quote] Or just ban Exodia and not having to worry about making it consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334600574' post='5915716'] Or stop making stuff that makes Exodia consistent. [/quote] Duality makes Exodia consistent. It's still f***ing good design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanAtlus Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='Tsukasa Hiiragi' timestamp='1334600664' post='5915718'] Or just ban Exodia and not having to worry about making it consistent. [/quote] Too much derpy Draw Power is bad for the game anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334600574' post='5915716'] Or stop making stuff that makes Exodia consistent. [/quote]Or ban every card that makes Exodia more consistent instead of just banning one card that's obviously bad for the game even if some oblivious players don't realize it. [quote name='Hatcher' timestamp='1334599253' post='5915696'] I believe at the end of the day the main problem with alternate win conditions is that they're less a game of skill and more a game of luck. Stuff like Exodia is by default luck based, and if Yu-Gi-Oh ever hopes to take itself seriously it should be a game more focused on skill, not luck. The problem is then if the alt win condition is too consistent or not consitent enough. It's a fine line to walk. If the alt win is too consistent, it's bannable. If the alt win isn't consistent enough it sucks. Ultimately alt wins are completely binary. Either you win or you lose.[/quote]But here's the thing with that: If it becomes 'DRAWDRAWDRAWDRAWDRAWDRAW', then it's no longer just luck it's also autopilot, which is absolutely stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334600782' post='5915720'] Too much derpy Draw Power is bad for the game anyways. [/quote] It's funny because it's actually good. Only draw that encourages stall is bad. In all other cases, ban the win condition or don't make the draw card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanAtlus Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1334601029' post='5915728'] It's funny because it's actually good. Only draw that encourages stall is bad. In all other cases, ban the win condition or don't make the draw card. [/quote] =September 2012= FORBIDDEN Exodia the Forbidden One Final Countdown LIMITED Pot of Greed UNLIMITED Exodia limbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334601563' post='5915734'] LIMITED Pot of Greed [/quote]Note: You can't apply the rule to EVERY single card. But then again, you're having an argument with us about THIS, so why should I bother countering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Pot of Greed was actually bad card design due to generic +1 :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 As said, Pot of Greed was a costless +1 so it's bad design for a completely different reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanAtlus Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 [quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1334601669' post='5915736'] Note: You can't apply the rule to EVERY single card. But then again, you're having an argument with us about THIS, so why should I bother countering? [/quote] Sorry for not using sarcasm tags. I still think generic Stall and Draw engines pose more of a problem than the win conditions that become somewhat playable through them. (to the game in general) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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