Thomas★Zero Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335118623' post='5922401'] How is this relevant in the slightest? D.D. Scout Plane? What. [/quote] Because after being banished they resummon themselfs which with Lightray Grephers case it would be good for either making Swarms or a XYZ with another level 4 light monster special summoning itself after being banished the turn after grephers effect was use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1335118748' post='5922407'] [img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100729211148/yugioh/images/thumb/1/14/FabledKushanoHA02-EN-SR-1E.jpg/300px-FabledKushanoHA02-EN-SR-1E.jpg[/img] I wouldn't be ;~; [/quote] I assume you could possibly tech one in as a Tour Guide target, if it were though /curious Also: Normal Summon Tour Guide + Gold Sarco = Leviair + Laggia/Dolkka Normal Summon Grepher + Tour Guide = LOL NORMAL SUMMONING TWICE. OH U. [quote name='kingdom Neos' timestamp='1335118924' post='5922411'] Because after being banished they resummon themselfs which with Lightray Grephers case it would be good for either making Swarms or a XYZ with another level 4 light monster special summoning itself after being banished the turn after grephers effect was use. [/quote] 1. I need a Kingdom Neonese to English Dictionary. How much do they cost? 2. You can do the same thing with Sacreds, or something generally better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Ah well not like the effect is confirmed yet/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Lightray Daedalus- Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1335117729' post='5922376'] Then why are you bitching about it? I quote you a lot because all you DO is b****, and this time there was, once again, 0 justification for it, because you were arguing "Why are people mad this isn't balanced, it's perfectly fine in the undermeta being weak", whether you meant to or not. [/quote] Why...why all have to be Meta this meta that...even with this UNDERMETA thingy you are talking about...which not I haven't bring up at any moment... Why I DO think this card is perfectly fine is because it was a good design...functionally reprinting some aspects of the Original Dark Grepher but giving something to make it different...that is quite good...gives it its own identity... Uses for the Card will come with time...we don't have to have them right away... [quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1335117729' post='5922376'] This card's bad and you should feel bad. It's not fine at all, they basically killed its playability for the same terrible logic of "herpderp wulf exists". [/quote] So a card is bad...and I should feel terrible about it...if you say so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='-Lightray Daedalus-' timestamp='1335119648' post='5922430'] Why...why all have to be Meta this meta that...even with this UNDERMETA thingy you are talking about...which not I haven't bring up at any moment... Why I DO think this card is perfectly fine is because it was a good design...functionally reprinting some aspects of the Original Dark Grepher but giving something to make it different...that is quite good...gives it its own identity... Uses for the Card will come with time...we don't have to have them right away... [/quote] I'm a high supporter of casual and undermeta play, and even I think this is an utterly outclassed card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='-Lightray Daedalus-' timestamp='1335119648' post='5922430'] Why...why all have to be Meta this meta that...even with this UNDERMETA thingy you are talking about...which not I haven't bring up at any moment... Why I DO think this card is perfectly fine is because it was a good design...functionally reprinting some aspects of the Original Dark Grepher but giving something to make it different...that is quite good...gives it its own identity... Uses for the Card will come with time...we don't have to have them right away... [/quote] It has nothing to do with the meta, either. The only "meta" deck to use this would be Hieratics and they don't have Gustaph. So, how's it feel to be putting words in other people's mouth, when you just proved I put nothing in yours because you're bitching about the meta? And thanks for ignoring the point I was making to try and accuse me of putting words in your mouth. I was saying that this card isn't "fine" and out of all the cards you could've chosen to b**** about people bitching about (Read: GRANSOIL), you chose the card that people are going "Why aren't you balanced?" to and made it sound like they were going "BAWW THIS CARD DOESN'T DEFINE THE META". "Good Design" and "Good flavor" are not the same. Yes, flavor is part of design, but that's all this has going for it. It has no practical uses, even in the undermeta as is, and that shows how bad it is in card design. It's own identity means nothing if it's bad card design. Cards that have to "get better with age" usually end up broken, so how is that good at all? It's an all or nothing card, just like Wulf, at the moment. [quote name='-Lightray Daedalus-' timestamp='1335119648' post='5922430'] So a card is bad...and I should feel terrible about it...if you say so... [/quote] You should feel bad that you think it's "fine", when even the undermeta is like "Wat" to it, except maybe lollightray.dek =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='kingdom Neos' timestamp='1335118924' post='5922411'] Because after being banished they resummon themselfs which with Lightray Grephers case it would be good for either making Swarms or a XYZ with another level 4 light monster special summoning itself after being banished the turn after grephers effect was use. [/quote]Not Survivor, learn how to play, please. >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAreYou? Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335118947' post='5922414'] Normal Summon Grepher + Tour Guide = LOL NORMAL SUMMONING TWICE. OH U. [/quote] wat have u forgotten grepher's effect, d00d? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='DJVD' timestamp='1335121797' post='5922497'] wat have u forgotten grepher's effect, d00d? [/quote] Give me a target for its SS effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Lightray Daedalus- Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Ok black...it is pretty clear that we'll never get along in this so... Let me do a final stand on to what is going here; first off all...I can say that...the meta this meta that...wasn't putting words on your mouth...it was a generalization of how people judges cards nowadays...the undermeta thingy DID come from you quoting you [quote][color=#9F9F9F][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]"Why are people mad this isn't balanced, it's perfectly fine in the undermeta being weak"[/background][/size][/font][/color][/quote] While I clearly stated that i'm positive at this card being balanced and fine, with no needing to get changed in any way...if the card didn't cover up your expectatives well too bad...card may not be for you...or may not be for this time...surely at some time it may see play or maybe not...but either way...is fine... Also you keep bringing the Grandsoil thingy once again...I told you I haven't read that thread at the time I posted here...so I had no idea people were bitching about that...nor should I have to have read it before I made a post in whenever thread I want to post... =/ Usability also doesn't define good design either...I could prove it with another card I came across lately but being a MTG card it will just piss you of even more so i'll pass from that... And still not getting why I should feel bad about such a thing like if other people doesn't like the card and I do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='-Lightray Daedalus-' timestamp='1335121989' post='5922504'] Ok black...it is pretty clear that we'll never get along in this so... Let me do a final stand on to what is going here; first off all...I can say that...the meta this meta that...wasn't putting words on your mouth...it was a generalization of how people judges cards nowadays...the undermeta thingy DID come from you quoting you While I clearly stated that i'm positive at this card being balanced and fine, with no needing to get changed in any way...if the card didn't cover up your expectatives well too bad...card may not be for you...or may not be for this time...surely at some time it may see play or maybe not...but either way...is fine... Also you keep bringing the Grandsoil thingy once again...I told you I haven't read that thread at the time I posted here...so I had no idea people were bitching about that...nor should I have to have read it before I made a post in whenever thread I want to post... =/ Usability also doesn't define good design either... And still not getting why I should feel bad about such a thing like if other people doesn't like the card and I do... [/quote] It's bad design because it's outclassed in a heavily dominated niche. No other reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAreYou? Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335121986' post='5922503'] Give me a target for its SS effect. [/quote] for Dark = Malicous, Dark Creator, ect ect for Light = lvl 5 or higher lightsworn/JD [then playing beckoning light], Master Hyperion, ect ect Is it really that hard for you to figure out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='DJVD' timestamp='1335122273' post='5922514'] for Dark = Malicous, Dark Creator, ect ect for Light = lvl 5 or higher lightsworn/JD [then playing beckoning light], Master Hyperion, ect ect Is it really that hard for you to figure out? [/quote] i wasn't talking about Dark. I distinctly mentioned Leviair and banishing and stuff. 1. Why would Lightsworns want to banish stuff? Why would you sack Judgment Dragon and wait for Beckoning Light? Why would you discard Hyperion instead of playing it straight away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Lightray Daedalus- Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335122107' post='5922508'] It's bad design because it's outclassed in a heavily dominated niche. No other reason. [/quote] Being outclassed by other stuff is not bad design...if anything the bad designed cards are the card that outclasses this...but then again...the only card that is mentioned to outclass it is Gold Sarcophagus...which have its own issues ATM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='-Lightray Daedalus-' timestamp='1335122427' post='5922523'] Being outclassed by other stuff is not bad design...if anything the bad designed cards are the card that outclasses this...but then again...the only card that is mentioned to outclass it is Gold Sarcophagus...which have its own issues ATM... [/quote] Gold Sarcophagus is good design. It's Leviair that isn't. Frankly Counter Counter and Smashing Horn were bad design in the big picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAreYou? Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335122419' post='5922522'] Why would you sack Judgment Dragon and wait for Beckoning Light? Why would you discard Hyperion instead of playing it straight away? [/quote] Because JD usually doesn't appear until mid/late game unless you mill like crazy. Hyperion because Beckoning Light, Monster Reborn, ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='DJVD' timestamp='1335122634' post='5922537'] Because JD usually doesn't appear until mid/late game unless you mill like crazy. Hyperion because Beckoning Light, Monster Reborn, ect. [/quote] If it doesn't appear till mid/late game, why would you run this just in case it appears in early game :/ And Agents really don't run Beckoning Light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAreYou? Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Get one of four LS in the grave early. And yes, I know, Agents don't run Light, but I was setting an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='DJVD' timestamp='1335122792' post='5922551'] Get one of four LS in the grave. And yes, I know, Agents don't run Light, but I was setting an example. [/quote] > Implying that Jain, Ehren, Aurkus, Ryko, Lyla, Celestia, Charge of the Light Brigade, Solar Recharge, Foolish Burial, Lavalval Chain and all tons of stuff already do that. Jain > Grepher as a beatstick. Gold Sarco > Grepher as a Judgment Dragon retriever (especially considering sacking JD in the Grave is just calling for D.D. Crow or something) And why would you give us a bad example for the sake of giving an example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Lightray Daedalus- Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335122504' post='5922529'] Gold Sarcophagus is good design. It's Leviair that isn't. [/quote] Leviar being the Issues I mentioned GS have...XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='-Lightray Daedalus-' timestamp='1335122940' post='5922557'] Leviar being the Issues I mentioned GS have...XD [/quote] :3 Then again, Grepher technically suffers the same problems, but, in this case it's actually Tour Guide is the only problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Doodle Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 [quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1335118338' post='5922387'] Dark Grepher isn't broken, but only because of the discard being subpar to Armageddon Knight, except in Infernity and Dark Counterparts. Lights, however, love the Graveyard. Lightsworn and Lightrays adore the Graveyard, and sending their monsters to the Graveyard. If Lightray Grepher was like Dark Grepher, it'd be better than Dark Grepher because there are more Light-based cards and strategies that would like the effect. Agents have Hyperion and stuff, Lightsworn have...the entire archetype. As it is, the card is mediocre, but I see no real urgency to make it a Dark Grepher. This card is very interesting, especially when considering some of the RFG support. [/quote] exacly my point [quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1335117729' post='5922376'] So let me get this straight Your logic is that an all or nothing card that was badly designed, aka Wulf, makes this broken? Are you daft? Not to mention how Wulf dead draws in the first place and is an overall terrible card, hence ALL OR NOTHING. It would be fine. Is Dark Grepher broken? No. I didn't expect it to be like Grepher, I just expected it to mill in exchange for a grave banish or something with better SS conditions instead of LIGHT to DARK SS. There's no way to defend it not milling because "Wulf exists" is a horrible argument based around a terribly designed card. [/quote] it's not wulf exulicvly- you could also send the LS you need to your graveyard for JD or Lumina\ Beckoning. but ok, let's say you draw wulf.or even any other dead monster LS might get in their hand. Discard it and summon wulf from your deck and then proceed to whatever...I mean, if it was like Dark Grepher it would be like a specific lumina IMO. and, iirc mind master was banned becuase of exodia right? Substitoad because of Ronnin? of course Lonefire's targets helped Lonefire get limited (he wasnt broken until the new targets, 'bad desinged' if you'd like,popped up) , and so on...a card is as good as it's targets. But, I think you are taking my words as an extreme (maybe it's the way I worded it, idk) I dont know if it would be broken the way you wanted it, but it does seem like it gives access to stupid combos :\ It's more logical the way it is now becuase it handles both the graveyard and the banish-supporting sorcerer and the other lightrays aswell. The way I see it now it might see some use in a Fabled deck with redemption (gets your ganashia back as well) becuase in that case it's not a -1 effect but a +0 effect, but I can't know for sure yet, it doesnt sound the most consistant thing right now. not to mention, comparing the 2 counterpart Grephers is like comparing UFO Turtle to Mystic tomato-they clearly have different targets and support cards and thus toamto is way more usable then UFO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Making it like Grepher would be stupid, but as is now it's stupid in the other direction. Good way to make it work would be to banish 1 in Grave to dump 1 maybe, idk it's just hard to immitate Grepher without it being stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectralMaliceX Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Out of the chaos using musical theory I've created an OTK for when this card is released. Also dimensional fissure combos with this to get lightray sorceror out in like 1 turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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