This Account is Unplayable Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 So basically. Ban everything that can be possibly exploited by a few cards. Or ban those few cards. Rabbit needs to go. Laggia is far from bad card design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Luck is so important to the entire game. It's like salt, you need it, too much will probably give you diabetes and high blood pressure. Not saying luck will give you that though. It loosens up tiers, gives tons of flex space for tons of decks, it what makes techs possible. Lavalval is kinda far too splashable for the amount of stuff it can do. Duality removes a healthy amount of luck, only because it relies on you having something decent in your top 3 cards as well as a drawback. Draws are completely random, as said, there's the 'luck of the draw'. There's plenty of stuff that would otherwise be good reactive design without the amount of luck being steadily removed from the game. Chaos Sorcerer is otherwise a diversity promoter that can be teched or devoted to, but you don't want to be able to get out whenever. And Rabbit should go. It's bad design because it promotes the bad kind of reactive design. It has so much potential, it's scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 *Agrees with Black and Chris* Laggia only spawned to support one of the most underwhelming types in the entire game. Rabbit just had to go and try to ruin that. Really? I'm not letting no mentally-challenged rabbit who thinks its a Rescue Hero knock-off get rid of my monopoly with Dinosaurs. Are we really going to go "Herp-derp broken card" because of one card makes it easy to get out while this card is actually balanced for the type it is designed for (and, not to forget to mention, makes that type much more consistent without breaking barriers)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1335192993' post='5923331'] The problem is that there will always be something stupid to search. :\[/quote] Ideally the stupid stuff should go,ideally. [quote]Remember, I'd said how luck is important. Being able to eliminate luck from the game is one of the stupidest things you can do in card design.[/quote] It takes no skill to rely on the luck of the draw and playing it how it goes,it takes no skill to use the cards you are given randomly in that anyone with two neurons can use the cards,a hand of kageki + kagemusha is a very linear hand and takes zero skill to play,while a hand of say..... 2 smoke signals takes even the slightest bit of thought to work with,should you go kagemusha into kageki? Or should you go kagemusha into elder for a rank 3? It is the simple fact that adding options to a game increases it's skill level,that level of decision and manipulation of resources as luck decreasing as it may be rewards good playing and punishes bad playing; a gamestate decided by luck means that anyone can win at any time no matter how bad they may be,while a gamestate decided solely by loss of luck would punish bad players for their bad search choices and reward good players for what they do. Lavalval chain fits the category of promoting skill,only a good player can know when to stack something with him,when to send something,and when to even [i]MAKE[/i] him,if he said something like "Detach to draw 1 card" i wouldnt even care about it. The problem with removing luck is that accessibility equals power,now this is just a super extreme example but if thunder king rai oh said "You can add this card from your deck to your hand instead of conducting your draw phase" it would be an amazing tech if not staple,but if rai oh said "If you control two level two monsters,you can place this card on top of your deck from -insert place here-" that would be mediocre and unplayable,adding consistency and eliminating luck is 100% reliant on how said object is searched and what said object is,that's why if the same condition was tacked on larvae moth it would still be a complete pile of ****. It depends wholly on what is searched and how it is searched. Consistency is fine as long as it doesnt have a massive amount of power behind it.Lavalval's way of moving cards is mediocre at best and losing two level 4s and not being able to do anything that turn is not a broken design so it only relies entirely on what is being stacked,card is fine itself and as such is only broken by his searches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote]should you go kagemusha into kageki? Or should you go kagemusha into elder for a rank 3[/quote] Neither. Also, since you seemed to totally not get the point in which luck is important but only in moderation: [quote]Luck is so important to the entire game. It's like salt, you need it, too much will probably give you diabetes and high blood pressure. Not saying luck will give you that though. It loosens up tiers, gives tons of flex space for tons of decks, it what makes techs possible. Lavalval is kinda far too splashable for the amount of stuff it can do. Duality removes a healthy amount of luck, only because it relies on you having something decent in your top 3 cards as well as a drawback. Draws are completely random, as said, there's the 'luck of the draw'. There's plenty of stuff that would otherwise be good reactive design without the amount of luck being steadily removed from the game. Chaos Sorcerer is otherwise a diversity promoter that can be teched or devoted to, but you don't want to be able to get out whenever.[/quote] No-one said anything about having the gamestate reliant on luck. But luck is one of the foundations of the gamestate, alongside skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1335191276' post='5923312'] ITT: Just because many of the cards that this card can abuse are broken means that only they are broken. [/quote] chiming in for a moment here What's your argument that Chain should be banned if all those cards are eliminated? Let's be real here- they were incredibly problematic before Chain, and he didn't exactly make them worse. It's pretty much the same as the "Brionac vs Everything" problem, except Chain is even more questionable. on topic: I think both Laggia and Rabbit are a problem. Laggia moreso though, and I'd rather that be dealt with before Rabbit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1335200956' post='5923393'] chiming in for a moment here What's your argument that Chain should be banned if all those cards are eliminated? Let's be real here- they were incredibly problematic before Chain, and he didn't exactly make them worse. It's pretty much the same as the "Brionac vs Everything" problem, except Chain is even more questionable. on topic: I think both Laggia and Rabbit are a problem. Laggia moreso though, and I'd rather that be dealt with before Rabbit. [/quote] Because Lavalval Chain is bad design. Just because something doesn't necessarily make a [b]visible[/b] impact doesn't mean it's making an impact. Letting it stay is like keeping a golden turd in your fridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Althemia Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1335200956' post='5923393'] chiming in for a moment here What's your argument that Chain should be banned if all those cards are eliminated? Let's be real here- they were incredibly problematic before Chain, and he didn't exactly make them worse. It's pretty much the same as the "Brionac vs Everything" problem, except Chain is even more questionable. on topic: I think both Laggia and Rabbit are a problem. Laggia moreso though, and I'd rather that be dealt with before Rabbit. [/quote] nah, rabbit's more a problem. It has an effect which is far more abuse-able than the former. Rabbit tends to make things in one swoop. No form of skill required to it. If Laggia didn't exist, then Rabbit would just move on to HEROes or Geargia. It's really that simple. If Rabbit was to go, players would be encouraged to find new and innovative ways in order to bring out a boss which is now slowed down an incredibly vast amount. Laggia's only a problem because it can easily be made in 1 turn from Rabbit. If Rabbit was gone, I bet you that nearly no-one would complain about it, apart from how they lost to "that one rogue deck". And if that rogue deck managed to pull it off? Chances are that they were rewarded for doing something ballsy and/or skillful, not for drawing one card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 If you really want to force a Laggia play, summon Doomcaliber. It FORCES it XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335201414' post='5923395'] Because Lavalval Chain is bad design. Just because something doesn't necessarily make a [b]visible[/b] impact doesn't mean it's making an impact. Letting it stay is like keeping a golden turd in your fridge. [/quote] I agree with you to an extent but I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment: 1. How exactly is Chain bad card design? 2. Why is that specific bad design reason for a card to be banned? [quote name='Kokonoe' timestamp='1335202973' post='5923409'] nah, rabbit's more a problem. It has an effect which is far more abuse-able than the former. Rabbit tends to make things in one swoop. No form of skill required to it. If Laggia didn't exist, then Rabbit would just move on to HEROes or Geargia. It's really that simple. If Rabbit was to go, players would be encouraged to find new and innovative ways in order to bring out a boss which is now slowed down an incredibly vast amount. Laggia's only a problem because it can easily be made in 1 turn from Rabbit. If Rabbit was gone, I bet you that nearly no-one would complain about it, apart from how they lost to "that one rogue deck". And if that rogue deck managed to pull it off? Chances are that they were rewarded for doing something ballsy and/or skillful, not for drawing one card. [/quote] I disagree because I don't think a card like Laggia should ever be allowed to exist regardless of what it supports or how much "skill" it takes to get out. I think both are really bad, I just have a special distaste for cards like Laggia. Rabbit decks can at least be fun to play and play against imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote]1. How exactly is Chain bad card design?[/quote] [quote]Luck is so important to the entire game. It's like salt, you need it, too much will probably give you diabetes and high blood pressure. Not saying luck will give you that though. It loosens up tiers, gives tons of flex space for tons of decks, it what makes techs possible. Lavalval is kinda far too splashable for the amount of stuff it can do. Duality removes a healthy amount of luck, only because it relies on you having something decent in your top 3 cards as well as a drawback. Draws are completely random, as said, there's the 'luck of the draw'. There's plenty of stuff that would otherwise be good reactive design without the amount of luck being steadily removed from the game. Chaos Sorcerer is otherwise a diversity promoter that can be teched or devoted to, but you don't want to be able to get out whenever.[/quote] [quote]2. Why is that specific bad design reason for a card to be banned?[/quote] Nothing needs to be banned apart apart from Lavalval Chain in this case. Black Luster Soldier does need to be banned to, as an example of a good Chain target, but that's for another bad design reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1335208813' post='5923458'] I disagree because I don't think a card like Laggia should ever be allowed to exist regardless of what it supports or how much "skill" it takes to get out. [/quote] Based on that argument, Apex Avian should not be allowed to exist regardless of what it supports or how much "skill" it takes to get out. And no, you can't say that Apex Avian isn't in the same category of Laggia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Okay, now it's my turn to comment on those cards. As a reminder to myself to limit my tangent hopping, the cards are Rescue Rabbit, Evolzar Laggia, and Lavalval Chain. Okay, Rescue Rabbit. On the surface, Rescue Rabbit is a clear attempt to remake Rescue Cat's concept, but balance out what made Rescue Cat broken. To this end, they were successful. Rescue Rabbit cannot be Summoned from the Deck, removing Summoner Monk and Giant Rat plays from the equation, one of the factors to Rescue Cat's brokenness. It can only grab 2 monsters with the same name, thus limiting cases that Rescue Cat had with grabbing things like a Tuner and non-Tuner (Airbellum + Darksoul) for insane Synchro plays. It can only grab Normal Monsters, offering some much needed strategies involving the underwhelming card type. It banishes itself instead of simply Tributing, as the RFG is supposed to be harder to recycle your resources from outside of some heavy investments, like Return from the Different Dimension or Different Dimension Reincarnation. Lastly, Rabbit can only use the effect once per turn, limiting any revival loops like Cat had. This wasn't enough. It would be just fine like this on paper. But then you realize that Leviair the Sea Dragon is around, and serves as once-per-turn Rabbit recycling. But that's a Rank 3, whereas Rabbit will mostly be used for Rank 4s, right? Well, you could use Rabbit for Rank 3s, but then you notice a certain Fiend called Tour Guide, which is essentially an instant Rank 3 producer. Now you've got an issue. You have Rabbit, a one-card Rank 4 producer, and Tour Guide, a Rank 3 producer, and Leviair, a Rank 3 RFG recycler. Oh, but Tour Guide's a TCG Exclusive, so Japan can't abuse that. Yeah, but the TCG can. And what other gift has the TCG given Rabbit? Oh look, Evolzar Dolkka, the card that is essentially a double Divine Wrath with identical Summoning Condiitons as Laggia, and only 100 ATK less. And what's this? TCG still uses Ignition Priority? That means Rabbit leaves the Field almost as soon as it's Summoned, keeping the opponent from countering Rabbit with Book of Moon, Fiendish Chain or Effect Veiler. Hmm...but the OCG got rid of Priority, doesn't have Tour Guide, and doesn't have Dolkka. Well, what else does Rabbit do, before we look at Laggia? Well, Verz get a nice boost due to their 1950 Level 4 Normal Monster, so Rabbit can be instant access to one of the fearsome Rank 4 Verz Xyz, like Ophion or Bahamut. And in other Decks that use more Normal monsters, it supports those. But surely these underwhelming Decktypes could justify Rabbit's existence. A diverse meta is a good meta, right? Well, then we look at Laggia. Laggia is a 2400/2000 Rank 4 Dragon that requires 2 Level 4 Dinos, such as Kabazauls or Sabersaurus. Jurracs and Evols also can access this creature pretty quickly. Oddly, so can Verz, considering Salamandra is a Dino. Laggia detaches both Materials to negate a Summon or a Spell/Trap's activation. It's Spell Speed 2, so it can't hit Counter Traps, and Monster Effects still bypass it. But this timely negation is crucial. The opponent is almost guaranteed to need to waste a powerful resource just to make their basic plays, and that's not counting the backrow a Laggia-player may have Set already, that could still screw the opponent over without using up Laggia's Materials. This card wouldn't be THAT bad, considering how specific it is and Dinos being a rare type, just so long as there's no way to consistently drop it for little to no effort. Wait, what does Rabbit do again? Oh right, drops 2 Level 4 Dinos on the Field with low chance of preventing it, and absolutely no effort. Which then forms a 2400 semi-Solemn. And in the TCG, you have Tour Guide to retrieve Rabbit to form another, or you use Jurrac Guaiba or something to get the Materials. It's Rabbit's interaction with Laggia that makes Laggia unfair. Jurracs or Evols having access to Laggia would simply be compensation for how Jurracs and Evols aren't exactly top-tier and could use something like this to keep the flow of advantage relatively even. Is Laggia bad design? Kind of. But Rabbit is worse than Laggia because Rabbit is the enabler. Rabbit makes it so that Laggia is extremely easy to make on the first turn. Laggia is definitely good. Maybe even too good. But it has its weaknesses (that Dolkka covers) and without Rabbit, it'd be the type of boss monster low-tier Decks deserve. A nice punch in terms of ATK, a fairly easy Summoning Condition for the Deck, and some protection for your resources to justify the expense. But we have Rabbit, and Rabbit makes Laggia easily. Now for Lavalval Chain. Lavalval Chain is an interesting card. Firstly, it's a Rank 4 with only 1800 ATK. That type of low ATK in exchange for 2 Level 4s means it's an expense off the bat, due to not being able to compensate in terms of damage. But in exchange for 1 Overlay Unit, it can either ditch ANY card to the Graveyard, or place any monster at the top of the Deck. Hmm...an 1800 that requires 2 Level 4 monsters to Summon, and is either an upgraded Foolish Burial, or ensures you'll draw a desired monster in your next turn...thing is, that's not too bad. Sure, it can (and I often did) put something evil on top, such as Judgment Dragon or BLS, the latter being banworthy on its own, but also look for other generic life-saving, albeit problematic cards. Tour Guide and Rabbit come to mind, and that returns the issue of how bad THOSE cards are. But what about the mill? Wulf, Hornet, Grapha, etc would love being sent to the Grave, although why that Deck used this, I'm not sure, but it can mill any card, including, as mentioned, Gem-Knight Fusion, which is a recycleable Fusion Spell. And Rabbit makes Chain easy using 2 Normal Gem-Knights. But isn't that good for Gem-Knights? Yes, but it's not the only trick Rabbit has, so Rabbit is worse than Chain. That really is one of the best tricks Lavalval Chain has without directly involving broken cards, and Rabbit provides the setup for the Gem-Knight play because the detached Material is a Gem-Knight. Ultimately, I find Rabbit the biggest issue of the 3. Bad card design is only truly detrimental when there are too many bad designs running about unchecked. Rabbit is terrible card design with good intentions. But it only gets better as more Xyz are released. Don't forget the concept of power creep is alive and well. In order for cards to ever be good, they need to hold up to the current cards. 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Sunshine Jesse Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Koloktos' timestamp='1335212045' post='5923494'] Based on that argument, Apex Avian should not be allowed to exist regardless of what it supports or how much "skill" it takes to get out. And no, you can't say that Apex Avian isn't in the same category of Laggia. [/quote] I stand by what I said, although you actually lose advantage when you negate things with that card. Main reason it doesn't see play is because Mist Valleys suck in general and it's harder to get out by the very nature of the card type. I do concede that the cost to summon and use its effect might counterbalance it, though. Cards like Shi En, Laggia, and Dolkka are essentially costless (although in the case of Laggia, you can only use it once) and far easier to summon. but hey maybe making them harder to summon will eliminate the problem altogether. who knows? I doubt it though. ... I guess one card Synchro/Xyz really are the more definite problem here. I concede in that regard! [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335210025' post='5923466'] Nothing needs to be banned apart apart from Lavalval Chain in this case. Black Luster Soldier does need to be banned to, as an example of a good Chain target, but that's for another bad design reason. [/quote] I meant why is luck manipulation enough of a reason for a card to be banned, especially considering it telegraphs the hell out of what you're planning on doing, much like Gold Sarco and Duality. It is faster than those two though by a significant margin, so perhaps that's where the issue comes from? I don't really think it's an issue, though. This card doesn't set up retarded combos like Brionac does (which I still think is ambiguous in whether or not it needs to be banned) and if any card would be a problem for Chain to fetch, then it probably shouldn't exist. But now I'm just repeating myself. I just don't see why luck manipulation to such a minor extent is bad. EDIT: Also I don't think banning a card under the pretense of what might come is the right state of mind. It's why I don't think Brionac should be banned in an ideal scenario. In a realistic one? Sure, that f***er needs to go. But when you're making custom banlists you're already disregarding what -will- happen over what you -want- to happen, so why not go all the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 [quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1335213981' post='5923530'] I meant why is luck manipulation enough of a reason for a card to be banned, especially considering it telegraphs the hell out of what you're planning on doing, much like Gold Sarco and Duality. It is faster than those two though by a significant margin, so perhaps that's where the issue comes from? I don't really think it's an issue, though. This card doesn't set up retarded combos like Brionac does (which I still think is ambiguous in whether or not it needs to be banned) and if any card would be a problem for Chain to fetch, then it probably shouldn't exist. But now I'm just repeating myself. I just don't see why luck manipulation to such a minor extent is bad. EDIT: Also I don't think banning a card under the pretense of what might come is the right state of mind. It's why I don't think Brionac should be banned in an ideal scenario. In a realistic one? Sure, that f***er needs to go. But when you're making custom banlists you're already disregarding what -will- happen over what you -want- to happen, so why not go all the way? [/quote] Topdecking counts as setting up a combo. And, also, telegraphing what you're doing is pretty much a non-existant drawback this format when the a lot of the top decks are based on predictable combos and loops anyway. And if something is a problem because it's fetchable by Chain, then Chain's the problem only because it wasn't a problem because Chain came into existence. Chain is comparable to Rabbit - both are examples of bad reactive design, in which there's so much possibility for abuse to appear, it's safer not to make the card in the first place, no matter what decent things come up. Chaos Sorcerer, good reactive design, and just becomes a problematic design [b]because[/b] of Chain. And Chain; Chain is not [b]minor[/b] luck manipulation. It's probably the greatest luck manipulation in the entire format, Rabbit coming a close second only because it's a Main Decked monster. And this last thing bugs me: [quote]Also I don't think banning a card under the pretense of what might come is the right state of mind.[/quote] It's one of every single TCG's golden rules :S Konami doesn't really follow the rules because they like money, but they still have them. It's not 'banning' cards because of future possibilities, it's not making them in the first place. Lavalval Chain obviously skipped this process, so why give it free access into YGO? Give it a quick ban, it's like it never existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleOnceCalledGod Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 In essence, OCG-priority makes this and the others more balanced. They have a better meta over there because of it. True, everyone and their grandma runs Inzectors, but tons of people run those over here, too, and they don't have hopper yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 I feel that Rescue Rabbit in an environment without Evolzars and Leviair is beneficial to the game for giving playability to a variety of decks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1335227494' post='5923708'] I feel that Rescue Rabbit in an environment without Evolzars and Leviair is beneficial to the game for giving playability to a variety of decks. [/quote] If a deck will only becomes playable because Rabbit exists, I doubt it was meant to exist in the first place. I mean, creativity is a great thing, but there are limits to it when it comes to implementing it in design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmpoleMew Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Laggia@0 Dolkka@1 Leviair@0-1 would be an interesting format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1335227494' post='5923708'] I feel that Rescue Rabbit in an environment without Evolzars and Leviair is beneficial to the game for giving playability to a variety of decks. [/quote] [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1335228373' post='5923722'] If a deck will only becomes playable because Rabbit exists, I doubt it was meant to exist in the first place. I mean, creativity is a great thing, but there are limits to it when it comes to implementing it in design. [/quote] Pretty much this Rabbit does nothing good for the game, just promotes +0 Xyz that thin your deck by 2 and meet certain conditions like Verz or DARK. Laggia does no harm without Rabbit. The choice is obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleOnceCalledGod Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 TBH, I find Dolkka more evil than Laggia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 [quote name='TheTurtleOnceCalledGod' timestamp='1335228535' post='5923727'] TBH, I find Dolkka more evil than Laggia. [/quote] Dolkka is technically better, but the sheer control factor of Rabbit just means you can go Laggia freely instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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