Part 3 of Tewart

[Manjoume Thunder]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337947457' post='5946622']


No I'm asking a legitimate question I've been asking for months.
[/quote]

I've already went through this for both yugioh sections.

It's not worth your time.

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1337953553' post='5946644']
I share Pika's opinion on this one, am I hopeless too? Also, once again, being good at this game has [i]extremely[/i] little to do with modding.
[/quote]

But you're actually social and stuff.

[Blake]

[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1337953553' post='5946644']
But isn't that a problem in your scenario because the meta is only consisting of SPAMSPAMSPAM decks? If we had a meta in which only 1-2 of the big decks spamed a bunch of monsters, wouldn't that push Oppression to the side and maybe out all together? I fail to see how Oppression going from 1 to 0 (I don't and never have wanted it at more) was a better move than fixing (or innovating in Konami's case) the meta from whoever spams first wins. I feel as though I missed your point. DX
[/quote]
Herald + Kristya
Get Grapha to Grave -> NS a DW -> Bounce it for Grapha, set Oppression and activate gates +w/e else
Activate Photon Sanctuary -> Get out Galaxy-eyes -> Set Oppression +w/e

None of those involve said spam, yet they're devastating. Good luck stopping Herald/Kristya, and the other 2 require a 1/10 or 1/8 chance for the average deck to get over it, assuming that was their turn 1 move. You can argue that Grapha is bad design blablabla, but Photon Sanctuary and Galaxy-Eyes are fine. You're still sitting on a beater that laughs at everything they try to do. And there are other examples of the same thing.

Oppression locks out the central mechanic of the game completely, and it will never again be used in any other way than win moar. You don't have to spam, just get out 2 2000+ monsters and laugh for the rest of the game.

[quote name='Expelsword - 信仰' timestamp='1337955262' post='5946655']
Besides, Special Summon spamming [i]is[/i] a problem.
[/quote]
No, it's really not. It's power creep, and it's what makes Yugioh Yugioh, not including things that summon 395820460 in a turn.

Rabbit isn't the problem because it spams (3 SS in a turn isn't that much), its a problem because of what its spam enables. Inzektors aren't a problem because spam, they're a problem because they spam via hurting the opponent. Wind-ups aren't a problem because they spam, they're a problem because their spam has a hand rape loop. Chaos Dragons and Hieratics... yeah, the spam is the problem there.

Most of the meta doesn't have a problem due to spam, it's due to whatever else. We're in the Xyz Era, so the meta is becoming more controlling than sheer spam now. This isn't Samurais or Blackwings or X-Sabers, it's Rabbit, Inzektors, Dragons, and everything else.

Too much spam (Read: [b]Lavals[/b], Hieratics, etc.) is most definitely bad for the game, but summoning a few times a turn is fine ._.

[Legend Zero]

Ok, now I see what you're talking about. I understand your view point, but I don't think of this as a right and wrong argument. I guess I'm looking at it as a difference in what we want the format to be. For whatever crap I may receive from saying this, but a deck think Perfect Herald is the tad bit overboard version of an ideal deck imo.

I don't see how opening with a hand that allows for a deck to spam a giant monster and a (in my mind) limited card (Oppression) is Oppression's fault. Decks open God hands all the time, would that be enough for people to run a "win more" card in the current meta? The Spell/Trap hate and Inzecktors along with the decks that explode quickly make Oppression pointless to me. I can understand its logical banning and why Konami did it (Xyz era), but I don't see it being used in any of the decks that are fast enough. I feel like I just rambled on about nonsense, but I'll post this anyway. XP

[Blake]

[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1337967408' post='5946775']
Ok, now I see what you're talking about. I understand your view point, but I don't think of this as a right and wrong argument. I guess I'm looking at it as a difference in what we want the format to be. For whatever crap I may receive from saying this, but a deck think Perfect Herald is the tad bit overboard version of an ideal deck imo.
[/quote]
Herald IS far from ideal, but that's also in part to Kristya doing the same thing Oppression does, in the end.

As much as we'd like it to not be, Oppression is a lock card now, not an anti-meta card.

[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1337967408' post='5946775']
I don't see how opening with a hand that allows for a deck to spam a giant monster and a (in my mind) limited card (Oppression) is Oppression's fault.
[/quote]
Being able to sit on a beater and just shrug unless they draw S/T hate or Dark Hole is most definitely Oppression's fault. The extra deck can stock a lot of cards to stop threats and Oppression locks them completely out, leaving you with the small chance of drawing something to stop it.

[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1337967408' post='5946775']
Decks open God hands all the time, would that be enough for people to run a "win more" card in the current meta? The Spell/Trap hate and Inzecktors along with the decks that explode quickly make Oppression pointless to me.
[/quote]
You -1 or -2 yourself in Inzektors to kill Oppression, and having a way to counter/stop it (Note: It can still be used as Anti-meta, just as primarily lock) is not an answer at all.

[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1337967408' post='5946775']
I can understand its logical banning and why Konami did it (Xyz era), but I don't see it being used in any of the decks that are fast enough. I feel like I just rambled on about nonsense, but I'll post this anyway. XP
[/quote]
It was banned in September 2011 because Konami knew this was going to become the way of the game and make it even more ridiculous than it was. I'd love to sit on a Evolzar or two plus Oppression because you just laugh off WHATEVER they do. Not to mention all the other decks around that would love to use it after they set up. It's never going to be used in its intended fashion again because a "Better" use was found for it.

[evilfusion]

I agree with Pika's comment, but in a different way.

The problem isn't SIMPLY spamming. It's that the game has evolved to the point where Special Summoning is absolutely crucial to almost every Deck played. What Oppression did was allow a player to choose which Special Summons to filter for a tiny LP cost. Not only did it essentially lock Special Summons, but it provided card advantage by destroying the card responsible for the Summon attempt. It also negated the Summons, which has issues with reviving those cards later.

Synchro Decks run mostly lower Level monsters with mild stats and need to play several monsters to Summon a single bigger monster. With Oppression, you could ignore the smaller monsters, and then Oppress the Synchro. That was a heavy loss of resources, but for a fraction of Solemn Warning's cost. Furthermore, Oppression wasn't single-use. It could be used again, and continue to gain advantage from it. Since most Decks were Synchro-based, the inability to play your main cards put a player at a massive disadvantage, especially if the controller of Oppression had already played a swarm of monsters or a single powerful one. The entire focus of your Deck was useless, and you usually lost resources making the play until your opponent flipped Oppression to kill the end result.

One card was essentially able to kill EVERY SINGLE DECK.

There are two ways to deal with that: Ban Royal Oppression. Or remake the entire game and card designs so that Special Summoning was no longer so crucial to the game that Oppression murders you if you can't deal with it promptly. Obviously, the second choice would require many, many more cards to get banned, and all data on card viability would be dead.

As for the article, I dont have much to say on it. It's true, to some degree, and I guess it explains why top Decks aren't getting killed off every time (Plant Synchro lasted forever).

The article was not saying anything about Inzektors, etc being immune to the list. Combined with Tewart's other articles, it explains that while Inzektors, Wind-Up, and Rabbit all are powerful Decks, and gain popularity, they weren't YET to the point of being unfair and sweeping the tournament board with ease, which is when Decks need to get hit badly (like Infernity post-TSHD). The fact is Konami knows the overall stats of all participants, and players do not, so the decisions they make are more statistically informed than the people looking at the top rankings and crying foul.

[Catterjune]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1337916442' post='5946507']
[/quote]
The problem is that SPAMSPAMSPAM is the only thing worth playing in today's meta.

The only reason it shuts down most playable deck is because Special Summoning is so integral to playing the game.

Even the example you give completely prove my point. Grapha? It's a special summoned monster. Kristya? Special Summoned. Herald of Perfection? Special Summoned. The problem isn't Oppression, it's that special summoning has completely dominated the metagame with absolutely nothing to keep it in check.

[quote]Pika why do you mod the TCG section when you're absolutely hopeless at the game?[/quote]
You're adorable.

[Blake]

[quote name='Hatcher' timestamp='1337981758' post='5946918']
The problem is that SPAMSPAMSPAM is the only thing worth playing in today's meta.

The only reason it shuts down most playable deck is because Special Summoning is so integral to playing the game.

Even the example you give completely prove my point. Grapha? It's a special summoned monster. Kristya? Special Summoned. Herald of Perfection? Special Summoned. The problem isn't Oppression, it's that special summoning has completely dominated the metagame with absolutely nothing to keep it in check.
[/quote]
And yet I've give multiple examples otherwise and you ignored them all, as usual. Rabbit can spam, but it's not SPAMSPAMSPAM. Inzektors aren't really spammy, they just summon 2-3 times per turn and the issue is how they hurt the opponent. Dark Worlds can, again, spam but it's more "Get out beater, wreck their plays". HEROes focus on an occasionaly Xyz and Fusions. Dragons and Wind-ups are the spammers.

Power Creep exists, and your post pretty much goes "Power Creep is evil and is to blame for everything and you can't blame old cards being broken by Power Creep". You can't hate on power creep because it leads the game in the right direction. Did you know Flame Swordsman was META for a week? I bet not. did you know Fusionist was the WORST CARD EVAR back then? Probably not, cause now it's pretty damn good.

So Mind Control is completely innocent, because it was broken by the creep? No.

Special Summoning being integral to the game is what [i]makes it fun[/i]. Sure, I enjoyed it when I was younger, but that was cause I was like Yugi or whoever. Now, I enjoy it for the game itself. To complain that Special Summons are integral is to complain that the game evolved from "Summon/Set 1, set w/e, attack if possible, end.", which was honestly a slow, boring game. Konami could have reigned it in better, but the game needs Special Summoning or it's slow as hell. Oppression basically said "Power Creep? TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT!", so it had to go, just like Mind Control needs to.

Evilfusion summed it up pretty well, to be perfectly honest.

[Master Hyperion]

[quote name='Hatcher' timestamp='1337981758' post='5946918']
The problem is that SPAMSPAMSPAM is the only thing worth playing in today's meta.

The only reason it shuts down most playable deck is because Special Summoning is so integral to playing the game.

Even the example you give completely prove my point. Grapha? It's a special summoned monster. Kristya? Special Summoned. Herald of Perfection? Special Summoned. The problem isn't Oppression, it's that special summoning has completely dominated the metagame with absolutely nothing to keep it in check.[/quote]

So instead of demolishing the decks that can spam their monsters with the banlist, you're bringing back a card that was a staple before it was banned that also punishes lower tier decks and only give an extra lock power to the decks that actually deserve to be demolished to begin with, just so it keeps the tier 1 decks "in check".

oh ok guez that makse purfekt senc

[arkel]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1337937999' post='5946598']
Pika why do you mod the TCG section when you're absolutely hopeless at the game?
[/quote]

Pika is one of, if not the, best banlist theorists this game has to offer.

She is absolutely correct in her argument. So many broken cards exist that warrant ridiculous amounts of Special Summoning, making Normal, Tribute, and Flip Summoning near obsolete. Crab once said that any card which forces the game to turn its back on its basic mechanics deserves to be banned, and I 100% agree with his logic. Any cards which create a meta completely centered around one specific type of summoning (in this case, Special Summoning) should get the hammer.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='arkel' timestamp='1338062163' post='5947393']
Pika is one of, if not the, best banlist theorists this game has to offer.
She is absolutely correct in her argument. So many broken cards exist that warrant ridiculous amounts of Special Summoning, making Normal, Tribute, and Flip Summoning near obsolete. Crab once said that any card which forces the game to turn its back on its basic mechanics deserves to be banned, and I 100% agree with his logic. Any cards which create a meta completely centered around one specific type of summoning (in this case, Special Summoning) should get the hammer.
[/quote]

Even the best YCM has to offer is mediocre at best at competitive yugioh, don't be thick and think Pika's even remotely intellectual enough to theorise a good banlist.

And I can summarise your post so simply: "f*** letting a game evolve"

And I dunno about you, but having played yugioh since La Jinn format, it's gone in a much better direction. I'd rather quick games, than either slow mish mash beatdown matches where a single equip spell wins you the game, heck back when the game began you could win just by going first, because you got the board advantage and removal was scarce. Think before you speak, the game got good through evolving and it isn't getting any worse.

[Wizarus]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1338062394' post='5947395']
And I dunno about you, but having played yugioh since La Jinn format, it's gone in a much better direction. I'd rather quick games, than either slow mish mash beatdown matches where a single equip spell wins you the game, [b]heck back when the game began you could win just by going first, because you got the board advantage and removal was scarce. [/b]Think before you speak, the game got good through evolving and it isn't getting any worse.
[/quote]

First turn Wind-up Loop
First turn Laggia
First turn Exodia
First turn Sam lock
First turn Herald
First turn Burn

And we cant forget all of the second turn OTKs running around. < Turn 3 = gg is flat out horrible, a format that forces you to main 3 Veilers or lolose is flat out horrible, the game has gotten a hell of a lot worse than you seem to think it has, and it's only getting worse.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='Wizarus' timestamp='1338068456' post='5947422']
First turn Wind-up Loop
First turn Laggia
First turn Exodia
First turn Sam lock
First turn Herald
First turn Burn
And we cant forget all of the second turn OTKs running around. < Turn 3 = gg is flat out horrible, a format that forces you to main 3 Veilers or lolose is flat out horrible, the game has gotten a hell of a lot worse than you seem to think it has, and it's only getting worse.
[/quote]

I will just be blunt and say that I rarely play any game that lasts so shortly. And funnily enough almost all of your examples are unimportant.

Wind-Ups have virtually fallen off the face of the competitive scene, so there goes point A.

No deck can bring out Laggia every game turn 1, so that's irrelevant, Rabbit isn't that godly consistent. Rabbit actually wins a lot of games by playing smart with their Vanillas and their resources.

Exodia sucks, and will always suck, and is far from metagame worthy. Even the "optimal build" is incredibly unlikely to FTK.

Sams are a shite meta call, idk why you even brought them up.

Herald is even more inconsistent than first turn Laggia, and is once again a bad meta call, mostly due to inconsistency and the lone Earth.

Burn, while gradually being a better meta call, has so any dead hands/hands that can't quite get to 8000 that it's not worth worrying about it.

[evilfusion]

If we're going to attack Pika for no reason, at least have a better justification for doing so.

Pika's right that the ability to spam a sh*tload the way some Decks do (Hieratics, Inzektors, Wind-Ups, even Rabbit to some degree) is bad.

However, it's exaggerated slightly in Pika's actual posts. Special Summoning, in itself, is not bad. Having a boss monster that is Special Summoned is not bad. However, having an insane amount of ways to Special Summon per turn, all but unchecked, IS bad.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1338068954' post='5947425']
If we're going to attack Pika for no reason, at least have a better justification for doing so.
Pika's right that the ability to spam a sh*tload the way some Decks do (Hieratics, Inzektors, Wind-Ups, even Rabbit to some degree) is bad.
However, it's exaggerated slightly in Pika's actual posts. Special Summoning, in itself, is not bad. Having a boss monster that is Special Summoned is not bad. However, having an insane amount of ways to Special Summon per turn, all but unchecked, IS bad.
[/quote]

Yugioh in its current state is at least more enticing because of the speed of the game. Pika's ideal metagame would take around 20 or so turns to complete, because everything goes so slow and has so little plays that one counter-card would stop all your plays for a turn. I'd much rather a special-summon heavy game, where at least I can make a play after a BTH or something.

[Wizarus]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1338068910' post='5947424']
I will just be blunt and say that I rarely play any game that lasts so shortly. And funnily enough almost all of your examples are unimportant.

Wind-Ups have virtually fallen off the face of the competitive scene, so there goes point A.

No deck can bring out Laggia every game turn 1, so that's irrelevant, Rabbit isn't that godly consistent. Rabbit actually wins a lot of games by playing smart with their Vanillas and their resources.


Exodia sucks, and will always suck, and is far from metagame worthy. Even the "optimal build" is incredibly unlikely to FTK.

Sams are a shite meta call, idk why you even brought them up.

Herald is even more inconsistent than first turn Laggia, and is once again a bad meta call, mostly due to inconsistency and the lone Earth.

Burn, while gradually being a better meta call, has so any dead hands/hands that can't quite get to 8000 that it's not worth worrying about it.
[/quote]

I was talking about they affect the [b]ENTIRE GAME[/b], not just 3 decks. And the fact that most of these decks are still viable even if you fail to get the FTK/lock out makes them even worse. (Dragons, Inzektors, Rabbit)>crap still makes the game look horrible.

[TheTurtleOnceCalledGod]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1338069312' post='5947427']
Yugioh in its current state is at least more enticing because of the speed of the game.
[/quote]
That is a matter of opinion, though is a common one, because the average person nowadays barely has any patience for long, thought out games, instead of long, thought out turns of spam, loops, and other such.
TBH, I and many others prefer slower metas because many decks can't even have a chance at competing against meta.dek/s (all tier 1 and 2 decks collectively, including ones which you consider irrelevant).
This includes Chaos Dragons, Dino Rabbit, Inzector, Hieratic+Ritua variants, HERO, Derp Worlds, Laval Synchro, Wind-Ups, Chain-Burn, Final Countdown, Gladiator, Dragunity, Karakuri, Gadgets/Machina, Six+Spamurai, Gravekeeper, Evilswarm, Ninja, Sacred, T.G., Skill-Drain+Antimeta variants, Blackwings, Frogs, and anything else I can't think of atm that make most decks nonexistent.
Yes, I included OCG meta, because it is relevant. Because a lot of those cards will make it here sooner than you think, and though their meta doesn't match our meta because of various TCG exclusives and

[This Account is Unplayable]

Just thought I'd point this out but no matter how you organise a banlist decks will be better than others, so the idea of having other decks pushed out being the problem is not a solid justification for x modification to the game. In the end, the faster game appeals to more people, so it sells more, simple.