Agro Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 [center]http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Gorz_the_Emissary_of_Darkness[/center] [center][img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111218051215/yugioh/images/c/c7/GorztheEmissaryofDarkness-JP-Manga-R.jpg[/img][/center] [center]You know what it does.[/center] [center]The purpose of this discussion is to deduce if there is anything relatively positive about Gorz's fundamental card design.[/center] [center]Discuss.[/center] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dementuo Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Trag did it better, acting as an extra monster when desperate, a toolbox when in a relatively good situation, and a beater when conserving resources. Gorz is just a herpderpdoublebeater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-so-Radiant Arin Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Gorz and Trag are like apples and oranges. Gorz requires an empty field but has a set, definitive amount of ATK, and the token it generates is evidence on how much your opponent screwed up. Trag does not require you to have an empty field, but instead can take control of one of your opponent's monsters, allowing it to easily become fodder for an Xyz like, say, Bounzer. They both serve different purposes, and I don't know why anyone would compare them as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted September 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 [quote name='Devil's Advocate' timestamp='1347938395' post='6027046'] Gorz and Trag are like apples and oranges. Gorz requires an empty field but has a set, definitive amount of ATK, and the token it generates is evidence on how much your opponent screwed up. [/quote]Except by screwing up, it means they tried to win. Which doesn't make much sense. And you can certainly compare the two. Both have extremely similar summoning conditions. The difference, and the important one at that, is that Gorz is really a one-trick pony and punishes your opponent too much for trying to achieve the main win condition. Trag can also punish the opponent, but it's more situational to actually punish and in most cases just acts as fodder for something else. The only issue with trag is if they gave it TOO MUCH versatility. I think we can definitely compare Gorz to Trag, or even to Battle Fader. It's a way to defend yourself when you run out of defenses, but unlike Gorz, which can change the game on a dime, Trag and Fader can only turn the game around with the right cards. It takes much more skill to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Griffin Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I feel that Gorz's design, fundamentally, is great. The problem is that he's too powerful. If the token was weak (e.g. always 1500/1500) or didn't exist, or if Gorz himself was much weaker (around those stats again), then it would truly have been a great card. To the player using Gorz, it presents the choice of putting monsters on the field, or giving your opponent a clear shot to Summon Gorz faster, and also a choice of using backrow cards, or allowing your opponent to just hit you if he gets past your monsters, making you judge which form of defense is best. You also have to decide if you use Gorz after the first attack, or take extra damage and wait for the strongest. Gorz definitely works better in the hands of skilled players. It also works as a nice comeback mechanic. Comeback mechanics are nice. If the game is made up of +0 effects and super slow, methodical gameplay, then the first player to gain a lead generally wins, and that can make half the game into acting out an inevitable defeat. Massively unfun. Comeback-encouraging cards like Torrential and Gorz are good for adding a level of excitement to games where a player gained an advantage. As for playing against Gorz, there's the obvious situation of selecting your attack order. If your opponent has 6000LP, a 1500 DEF monster and no other cards, and you have monsters with 2000, 2500, and 3000 ATK, then there's a big dynamic if you fear a Gorz drop. You can kill the monster with your 2000 ATK, then hit with your 2500 and 3000 to aim for maximum damage, but risk a stronger Gorz token, or you can hit the monster with your 3000, so your opponent can't get a monster stronger than your big beater due to Gorz, or you can kill the monster with your 2000, attack with the 2500, and end the Battle Phase so your opponent doesn't get Gorz at all, and might be forced to drop it against a weak monster next turn. Gorz definitely rewards skillful play on both players sides, and encourages some cool comebacks. The main problem is that suddenly fielding 5000+ ATK against a single monster like Stardust can simply throw game balance entirely off - especially when there are a small number of cards left in play. Gorz is simply too strong, but the design ethics behind him are super-solid. I would love a viable, generic Gorz retrain that could be left @3 safely. I think it would create a great format. Even just the same card with low self-stats would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted September 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I concur that Gorz's fundamental idea isn't bad, but it does too much. But I disagree about one of Griffin's points. Dropping a Gorz, even without a token, still puts a 2700 ATK beater on the board. Which, if I know the meta as well as I think I do, it fairly high. Even without the token, I've seen Gorz win games. Plus it'd make it even more of a one-trick pony that could do something better for the game in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Griffin Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I would like to see Gorz as the same card, but level 5/6, with 1600 ATK/1600 DEF. That keeps the mind-games of the token's variable ATK, and means you can't drop a 2700 beater when your opponent has a single Green Gadget or something but can still react when your opponent comes swinging with Grapha or something and even the field a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowayix Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Agreeing in that Gorz's concept is very good for the game, but it's too powerful. Make Gorz have the same ATK as the damage taken, or something. [s]also Gorz is the only NTK without alt wins or banned cards that doesn't rely on a ridiculously rare situation[/s] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Origins Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Look at Evan, trying to use big words and seem intelligent. >_> Anyways, all I have to say is that Gorz is absolutely horrid; although inducing mind games between the player who has to win, it also rewards a player simply by goading their opponent because Gorz is so common. Although that's /positive/ player to player interaction, what Gorz brings to the field with his absolutely broken effect rewards the player who 'risked' it all far too much, with the ability to destroy their opponent with a 0-4000 ATK beater and a stable 2700 ATK monster. Gorz, by himself, absolutely destroys the game with its high-risk-infinitely-high reward design. I really think he should be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowayix Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Who's Evan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I wonder what Gorz would be like, if he and Kein(Kein, right?) switched Attributes, and then Gorz had a: "Then, as long as you control this card, you cannot Special Summon" clause at the end of his Token effect. [quote name='Devil's Advocate' timestamp='1347938395' post='6027046'] Gorz and Trag are like apples-[/quote] Forget you, I can run [i]all[/i] these hand traps! *shot several times* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingdom Xathers Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 [quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1347987737' post='6027398'] Forget you, I can run [i]all[/i] these hand traps! *shot several times* [/quote] Oh my god, Armz... you crazy, dood. *snickers, then gets pony-kicked into a tree* OT: Trag is basically Gorz w/ Muka Muka's effect, and it's not a 2-4-1 monster, which is pretty much the main complaint most people have with Gorz (and, of course, Tour Guide to an extent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanAtlus Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 HEY YCM I LIKE GORZ I like him cause he gives even easier acces to Big Eye. In all seriousness; Gorz punishes the opponent for mass destruction, forcing them to properly think their plan through. Gorz shouldn't ever get banned because his existance alone can slow the game down by making both the player using Gorz and and his opponent have to consider how to use their resources. ALSO BIG EYE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted September 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 [quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1347992400' post='6027441'] HEY YCM I LIKE GORZ I like him cause he gives even easier acces to Big Eye. In all seriousness; Gorz punishes the opponent for mass destruction, forcing them to properly think their plan through. Gorz shouldn't ever get banned because his existance alone can slow the game down by making both the player using Gorz and and his opponent have to consider how to use their resources. ALSO BIG EYE [/quote]Gorz punishes the Opponent for winning. It punishes the Opponent for playing better than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1347995408' post='6027465'] Gorz punishes the Opponent for winning. It punishes the Opponent for playing better than you.[/quote] Inzektors- *shot* But in all seriousness, Gorz 2700 ATK runs over damn near anything, and is what makes him problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted September 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Now let's discuss the Normal Gorz. No, seriously. It was a Normal Monster in the manga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BehindTheMask Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 We seriously have this discussion everytime Gorz is mentioned. Its broken, we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted September 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 [quote name='BehindTheMask' timestamp='1347995786' post='6027475'] We seriously have this discussion everytime Gorz is mentioned. Its broken, we know. [/quote]We discuss whether it's fundamental principle is broken? Or attempt to deduce what said principle even is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowayix Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 My interpretation: Principle: Give a losing player a comeback, and/or make an opponent more hesitant to attack against an empty field. This is fine. Execution: Gives the losing player way too much comeback to the point that it's almost more beneficial to be losing and drop this than to be winning. This is not fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted September 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I feel like we shouldn't be discouraging people to attack an empty field. I mean, I understand, seeing as we have Heavy Storm and such, that a full field can very quickly become empty, but it just seems like we're saying a player should be hesitant to achieve the primary win condition. Maybe if we get a nerf'd version of Storm (like the one I posted a while ago), we'll be able to eliminate not only this, but also Tragoedia through the banlist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderVolt Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Subsequently to my Destiny Leo win. I fougt a guy using some strange Dark World Dark Gaia variant deck. he MRd this and slapped Megamorpoh on it to kill my Malefic Star. but i rebuttled with geartown, with geartown for Gadriltron then a 2nd star to make GIant Killer. Card is great, but if you know its coming its easy to play around, provided you have the materials to. (and of course, when your not ready for it usally ends up driving a nail in your coffin.) I've never shared the sentiments about banning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Dont see what's so broken about trag when it's usually only 2400 max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted September 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1348003057' post='6027552'] Dont see what's so broken about trag when it's usually only 2400 max. [/quote]Less about the ATK, more about how many effects they gave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1348004491' post='6027573'] Less about the ATK, more about how many effects they gave it. [/quote] Even when 1 of those effects is very situational and another one (mostly) makes -1s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Berserker- Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I really like Gorz, mostly because of the art, so I got the Ghost Rare version, and I can barely see it. Weird, isn't it?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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