Forbidden Chalice not doing enough for you? Try out this baby!

[Spenсe]

[center][img]http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee323/jayjacki/ForbiddenWord-1.jpg[/img][/center]

[center][b]OCG Corrected Lore:[/b][/center]
[center]Target 1 face-up monster on the field; until the End Phase, it gains 1200 ATK and any damage it [b]inflicts [/b]this turn becomes 0.[/center]

[pivotmasterDM1]

The effect sounds wrong. Try:
"Target 1 face-up monster. Until the end-phase, the selected monster gains 1200 ATK and damage it inflicts this turn becomes 0."

[Spenсe]

bump

[Yatamoto32]

I really like this card. A little off on the OCG but otherwise great. Are you going to turn this card into a set?

[Sora1499]

The card's pretty flexible. You can use it during your turn to pump up an easy-summon monster and run over acid golem, or target said acid golem while you have no monsters and make it basically useless for a turn. Since the damage becomes 0, it doesn't vitalize OTK plays and it's not very abusable. I like it. It's not too abusable, its versatile, and its useful. I think I'd run or at least side 1 of these, maybe 2 depending on the circumstances. Good job, 8.5/10

[Spenсe]

[quote name='Archlord Sora' timestamp='1351391399' post='6055333']
The card's pretty flexible. You can use it during your turn to pump up an easy-summon monster and run over acid golem, or target said acid golem while you have no monsters and make it basically useless for a turn. Since the damage becomes 0, it doesn't vitalize OTK plays and it's not very abusable. I like it. It's not too abusable, its versatile, and its useful. I think I'd run or at least side 1 of these, maybe 2 depending on the circumstances. Good job, 8.5/10
[/quote]
It's based off Forbidden Spell cards like Forbidden Lance or Forbidden Chalice

[Sander]

[quote name='Spenсe' timestamp='1351431951' post='6055515']
It's based off Forbidden Spell cards like Forbidden Lance or Forbidden Chalice
[/quote]

[img]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8cv2zpjKl1qegw8v.jpg[/img]

No, really, you shouldn't run this, as Forbidden Chalice already does the job better, aka this is useless as the only thing it does is increase ATK and limit you from winning. That's why Chalice is better, it allows you to take down troublesome monsters your opponent controls OR it can protect your own monsters from cards like Compulsory Evacuation Device / Bottomless Trap Hole and such alike.

[Sora1499]

@Zanda
Chalice only gives your monsters a 500 boost, whereas this increases the boost to 1200. If your opponent tour guides an acid golem and all you have is chalice and some obscure level 4 in your hand, you're f***ed. Forbidden Word says "f*** you Acid Golem, Hyperion, Kristya, etc.!" I know what you're going to say in response to this, " Any decent meta deck should be able to pump out a 2.5k monster easily!". Welp, lets look at a possible scenario:

You're running Dino rabbit, and you go second. Your opponent sets 2 back rows and a face-down monster. Your hand is 1 rabbit, 1 forbidden chalice, 1 MST, 1 bottomless, 1 Guiaba, and 1 dark bribe. You rabbit into Laggia, and it gets solemn'd, or the face-down monster is ryko. Your Laggia dies. Next turn: opponent MSTs or night rays face-down card, tour guides into acid golem. Now you take 3k damage, your hand is basically useless, your straight-up f***ed. Guaiba can't run over acid golem cuz chalice only bumps him up to 2200, you set him and lose in like 2 turns. HOWEVER, if you had forbidden word you could have, oh I dunno, summoned Guiaba, activated word, ran over acid golem, and Xyz into Laggia, Roach, or Utopia, and you have a nice shield to hide behind while you regain hand advantage. All because of 1 little card, you're on the winning side of the duel instead of cowering under the table while your opponent smothers you with Aggro beaters.

Yeah, this card is not as useless as you make it sound.

[Sander]

[quote name='Archlord Sora' timestamp='1351438525' post='6055578']
Yeah, this card is not as useless as you make it sound.
[/quote]

Faak, I meant Lance. |: Anyways, the card is still worse than Lance as for the reasons that I stated before. And no, Forbidden Word isn't all that great just because of some random situation you [i]might[/i] get into. Lance is still a better choice over Word.

[Shinobi Phoenix]

I like that the card also prevents effect damage, since it says "any damage" and not "battle damage".

So you can use it on a monster that will inflict effect damage to you and chain it to that monster so it shuts down that effect (also makes the opponent waste whatever the cost was) and it can't even retaliate with an attack.

I love cards with effects that look "simple" but can be used in useful, strategic, general-use ways and ends up being very versatile.

[Sora1499]

@Shinobi
Finally, someone who can see sense!
@Zanda
The one I gave is one of the myriad scenarios I can imagine making this card quintessential. Would you like another? I can give you about twenty more.

[Sander]

[quote name='Archlord Sora' timestamp='1351439685' post='6055592']
@Shinobi
Finally, someone who can see sense!
[/quote]

See sense? lol

The card isn't worth it when LANCE does the job better. The only time this could be considered as useful is when you're trying to stop your opponent from desling any damage to you, whether it be from a direct attack or from an attack targeting a monster you control. Only those times could it be useful, but even then, there is a countless amount of cards that also do the job and do it better, ie Compulsory Evacuation Device / Bottomless Trap Hole / Dimensional Prison etc. etc.

People run a lot of removal in the form of Spells and Traps, which Word cannot stop, but Chalice can. GOOD players would understand that. :/

[Shinobi Phoenix]

[quote name='Zanda Panda' timestamp='1351438758' post='6055581']
Faak, I meant Lance. |: Anyways, the card is still worse than Lance as for the reasons that I stated before. And no, Forbidden Word isn't all that great just because of some random situation you [i]might[/i] get into. Lance is still a better choice over Word.
[/quote]

A random situation like [u]your opponent attacking you?[/u] A random situation like your opponent has a bigger monster than you and you need to kill it.

Remember why Waboku is STILL popular? Because Judgment Dragoon was about to clear your field and rape you for game. That's what this card is, it's Waboku/Pikeru's Circle compacted. That alone would make the card not necessarily that good, but the ATK bonus helps in other situation.


Maybe if the card doubled ATK and DEF (cards even with 1500 ATK become 3000, but don't deal any damage).


Lance is not the same card as this. Lance stops all effects yes, but you use it to stop effects, not attacks or damage, so you can't use it to save you from something that will kill you (like an ATTACK).

[Sora1499]

@Zanda
What you've said is correct, but you're leaving out some crucial points. This card is VERSATILE: it can do all sorts of shenanigans. Pump up a monster or stop damage. You have brought up the point that bottomless and mirror do that better, and I'd agree that they do, but unlike bottomless or mirror, if Word gets MST'd or Heavy'd, its STILL useful, as you can just target a monster that already exists on the field. Hrm... Now, how would your opponent get over a 3100 Rai-Oh or a 3600 Laggia... The answer: they probably wouldn't be able to till next turn, as easy-kill spells aren't run too often anymore. But wait, another way to use it when it's about to die! Target an OPPONENT's monster and make it useless for a turn! <gasp!>

Another point: Lance's depletion is only 800, whereas this gives a boost of 1200. 400 ATK can be a big difference in a duel.

My final point: You repeatedly compare it to Lance. This card isn't Lance, its supposed to be used differently. You can't just hide behind a meta-card and whine "This card does the same thing better!". No, Word does a DIFFERENT thing in a decent fashion.

[Sander]

[quote name='Shinobi Phoenix' timestamp='1351440386' post='6055602']
A random situation like [u]your opponent attacking you?[/u] A random situation like your opponent has a bigger monster than you and you need to kill it.

Remember why Waboku is STILL popular? Because Judgment Dragoon was about to clear your field and rape you for game. That's what this card is, it's Waboku/Pikeru's Circle compacted. That alone would make the card not necessarily that good, but the ATK bonus helps in other situation.
[/quote]


Do YOU know why Waboku is popular? By the looks of this post, you clearly don't. Waboku is only popular because it's ran in Final Countdown / Chain Exodia. If those decks didn't exist, Waboku wouldn't see the light of day.


[quote name='Shinobi Phoenix' timestamp='1351440386' post='6055602']
Lance is not the same card as this. Lance stops all effects yes, but you use it to stop effects, not attacks or damage, so you can't use it to save you from something that will kill you (like an ATTACK).
[/quote]

Because you totally cannot use Lance on your opponents monster to either beat over it with your own monsters, right? Why would you want to use this when clearly Compulsory Evacuation Device / Dimensional Prison / Mirror Force / whatever the f*** else does the job better than Forbidden Word?

[Sora1499]

@Zanda
I said why. Just now. Up there. Read eet.

[Shinobi Phoenix]

[quote name='Zanda Panda' timestamp='1351440964' post='6055613']
Do YOU know why Waboku is popular? By the looks of this post, you clearly don't. Waboku is only popular because it's ran in Final Countdown / Chain Exodia. If those decks didn't exist, Waboku wouldn't see the light of day.
[/quote]

...In a parallel universe, right?


Waboku is popular because it's chainable with no activation condition and protects you from a game-ending onslaught well also being able to just use it when your opponent attempt to blow it up (and waste their cards).

I've played OCG for years and never seen or heard of a Chain Exodia deck (and OCG players play all kinds of schroom-induced crazy Decks, people who I see playing TCG and forum never talk about it even if it is around, always on about every thing popular that shows up. Chain Burn yes, but Chain Burn likes ANYTHING chainable.


I see Waboku in OCG Decks to this day; I see constantly, consistently and often at least 1 in a Side Deck. i will say it has SLOWED DOWN due to Effect Damage and it was around more against Lightlords (and Six Samurai except once Shi-En hits). You can't deny that Waboku was popular even a year ago even if the landscape has changed now.

This card is really not crap, it's supposed to be used along with the other two, but you're more determined to just trash it and only use the others. Not very constructive, especially when the card really isn't even close to trash. It's just the right level of useful.

I suppose you hate cards like Half Shut also, which is similar to the other Forbidden's.



You should be careful with your statements, you CLEARLY don't know how to frame your debates. Is this type of play regional or something? I know West Coasters play very different from East Coast and Midwest and Texas.

[Spenсe]

Zanda, what is with your obsession to trash every card I post? Its either "Omfgbbq completely utterly broken cannot be even thought of" or "This card is complete s*** and useless"

Anyway, this card is not like lance at all. There are many different situations where this card would be better than lance. Neither card is better, they both depend on situation. Also, why do you think Kulat is considered so op?

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

[quote name='Spenсe' timestamp='1351452522' post='6055792']
Zanda, what is with your obsession to trash every card I post? Its either "Omfgbbq completely utterly broken cannot be even thought of" or "This card is complete s*** and useless"
[/quote]

Because that's who he is.

Anyway, so that I'm not breaking the Advanced Clause, like I have numerous times before, the card wouldn't be run, really, but everyone else has pretty much stated that already. Lance is better because you can use it either defensively or offensively, same with Chalice. This doesn't implore any kind of strategy and doesn't go well towards the ultimate goal in the game, which is to reduce your opponent's Life Points to 0.

[Sander]

[quote name='Spenсe' timestamp='1351452522' post='6055792']
Anyway, this card is not like lance at all. There are many different situations where this card would be better than lance. Neither card is better, they both depend on situation. Also, why do you think Kulat is considered so op?
[/quote]

Kalut / Honest are considered to be broken because they're easily searchable for starters, and the fact that they don't restrict you to not deal any damage. If they did have that clause, they wouldn't be considered as broken as they are at the moment.

And again, you're missing the point here. Lance allows you to either protect your monster from Spell / Traps or allows you to beat over a monster, and still deal damage. This just increases the ATK by 1200 and then what? Beat over a monster and then what?

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

Wow this argument.

Anyway, while the 1.2k boost looks nice at first, the 400 difference this gets over Lance isn't going to be something that Lance can't solve all the time by Jeroid'ing an opponent's monster. Sure, it can Gardna an attack or make any non-Tribute beaters slay gods, but the instance where you would need Lance to stop BTH, Soul Taker, or Hole are more common, and having a monster lose 800 ATK is more favorable than losing it completely. In addition to that, you can kill the high-ATK monsters with cards like BTH, Soul Taker, or Hole.

Kalut/Honest are practically unstoppable by anything and activate from a well-concealed location, which makes them bork'd in that sense. In Honest's case, it lets many monsters run over anything and everything.

[Shinobi Phoenix]

[quote name='みゆきサン' timestamp='1351452742' post='6055795']
Because that's who he is.

Anyway, so that I'm not breaking the Advanced Clause, like I have numerous times before, the card wouldn't be run, really, but everyone else has pretty much stated that already. Lance is better because you can use it either defensively or offensively, same with Chalice. This doesn't implore any kind of strategy and doesn't go well towards the ultimate goal in the game, which is to reduce your opponent's Life Points to 0.
[/quote]

Fiercely disagree.

- This card is offensive if you attack and kill a monster but weakness and fairness through the weakness (which is shared in real cards as well as anime).
- I think you're confusing Lance with Chalice. An effect that reduces ATK and protects in of itself is only defensive. You can use it to make sure an attack goes through, but that's you protecting the monster with a defensive effect, not the effect being offensive. Chalice is the offensive effect (with another more passive effect that protects you from monster effects).
- The ultimate goal is to [b]WIN[/b], not just by Life Point reduction. All the instant wins and Deck Out strategies would like a word with you. You might as well say the goal is to win [u]by attacking[/u] and put Effect Damage in a hole in the ground too.
- No SINGLE card has a strategy, sort of how strategy works. How does Lance by itself have a strategy, but this card does not?
- Would we even be having this debate if people hadn't done the groundwork to make Chalice and Lance popular? I distinctly remember people hating Chalice [u]on paper[/u] in pre-release, happens every SINGLE time before release. After those who tossed it aside saw what people who tried it were doing, suddenly, they act like they always liked it and wanted more like it. Again, happens EVERY SINGLE TIME. Opinions in YGO from young players flip-flop like Mitt Romney until someone else does the actual testwork. There wouldn't be a Lance if people Chalice hadn't been used in decks from various OCG tournaments.


-------------------------

All this said, I think an effect should be added to the card. The theme of "Forbidden" cards seem to involve card effects and the negation or prevention of them (negates monster effects, prevents Magic/Trap effects from affecting your monster). So maybe Word should negate an effect of some sort or prevent it one (though the card currently prevents effect damage effects).

[Sander]

Let say your opponent controls a Number 17: Leviahan Dragon who is at 2500 with its effect. Would you rather use Lance or Word to deal with Leviathan? Well, I don't know about you, but any [i]good[/i] player would choose Lance over Word because Lance doesn't restrict you from inflicting battle damage.

[Sora1499]

@Zanda
Two can play at this game. Let's say your opponent has abyssgaio or kristya on the field and all you have is a crummy level 4. Any GOOD player would choose word over lance because word reverts Gaio to level 4 proportions, while Lance only puts it at the 2k tier.

Still not convinced? Fair enough. Lets say it's your opponents turn and they have ancient gear dragon (which is impervious to mirror force and d.p., btw) on the field and you have 2000 LP and no monsters left. Any GOOD player would choose Word over Lance because you get to negate ALL battle damage instead of just 800.

My point is, you can't compare Lance to Word because they are 2 very different cards with very different uses.

[Spenсe]

[quote name='Zanda Panda' timestamp='1351454799' post='6055830']
Let say your opponent controls a Number 17: Leviahan Dragon who is at 2500 with its effect. Would you rather use Lance or Word to deal with Leviathan? Well, I don't know about you, but any [i]good[/i] player would choose Lance over Word because Lance doesn't restrict you from inflicting battle damage.
[/quote]
What if the opponent also had Gorz? Then what? You get over 1, but you still lose your monster. This card makes leviair 3k atk, neither monster can attack over it, and you can activate it during damage step so you guarantee you at least get rid of 1 monster. The damage prevention can be used to save yourself from harm. And players don't play lance because it creates a tiny bit a battle damage (800 max damage, sure that'll be helpful).

Edit: that's why kulat and honest are considered op. They augment the atk of monsters so it makes it nearly impossible to get over them that turn, while at the same time guaranteeing your opponent's monster be destroyed during the damage step.