Parodiso

[Suibon]

[spoiler="Banlist"]

 

[spoiler="Banned (46)"]

 

[spoiler="Allure of Darkness"]

 

If you want a tl;dr, it's that 'not all 2-for-2 cards are balanced'.

 

If you want the long version, do read on --

 

All searchers and draw cards attempt to reduce the amount of luck that results from playing the average 40-card deck where cards are drawn at random by giving us options, or at least the veneer of one, to do whatever it is that we want or that might become possible after the searcher or draw card resolves and the appropriate costs are paid for.

 

Now, the degree with which luck is reduced -- say, by drawing into an early combo or searching for that Stratos -- is compensated by either a loss of resource (preferably before losing said resource before the user draws or searches so as to prevent him from choosing from a bigger hand) or tempo (mainly by making the user wait till his next turn to properly use what he has drawn or searched), or else a restriction or two to a certain Type or archetype, or else make the opponent gain something in return for using the draw card or searcher.

 

Any or all of these so that any attempt to set up OTKs and the like are nipped in the bud or at least hindered for a few turns, giving the opponent to set up counters and establish field presence for his own purposes.

 

At this juncture people might read all the above think like Gangrel has -- that reducing luck is bad. That's not what I am trying to say at all -- draw cards and searchers are good in moderation, as long as they prevent the user from getting exactly what they want when they want it. When the costs and/or restrictions and/or give-aways are insufficient to take account for the options thus presented, there we have a problem.

 

Once you look at the card using those metrics, it is hard to see how Allure is not problematic -- as the main and best draw card for the DARK Attribute (an Attribute hardly bereft of good monsters to draw and combo into), it lets you banish a DARK after you draw two cards, thus making you choose from a wider resource pool than is the case for, say, Destiny Draw or Trade-In.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler="Archlord Kristya"]

 

Let's say the argument for Archlord Kristya boils down to this -- Is The Agent of Creation (or indeed anything that can set up the 4 Grave-bound Fairies needed to Summon Kristya via its effect) less worthy of retention than an oversized Fossil Dyna Pachycephalo?

 

Or, for a tl;dr attempt -- is a walking momentum swing a better card to keep than any set-up device, walking or not, that might be used for purposes other than dropping said walking momentum swing?

 

(I did say I suck at tl;drs. I hope.)

[/spoiler]

[spoiler="******* Black ******* Luster ******* Soldier ******* Envoy ******* of ******* the ******* Beginning"]

 

A format where BfLfSfEfoftfB is not only allowed to exist but is actively languishing is not a healthy format. It may be a diverse format, it may be a format vastly ravaged by power creep that makes Envoys pale, but a healthy format? You sure kid.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler="Blackwing - Gale the Hurricane"]

 

Before I proceed, I'd like to bring up a similar monster in Armored Bee --

 

-- and two posts from Pharaoh Atem --

 

 

Now, Armored Bee has exactly one advantage over Gale -- it has 1600 ATK.

 

The disadvantages of being Armored Bee? Well, it's not a self-summoning Blackwing Tuner; neither does its own Shrink effect stay permanently.

 

What does that mean for Armored Bee? If for some reason Armored Bee cannot destroy whichever is the target of its Shrink effect  by battle, then it cannot hide its measly 1600 ATK from that target when the opponent's turn comes -- in other words, the Bee user reaps the reward for being dropping Bee at the right time, and pays the price for dropping it at the wrong time.

 

What of Gale? Being a self-summoning Blackwing Tuner with a perma-Shrink effect means that not only is the affected monster going to need additional commitment to stay on the field, but that Gale's 1300 ATK body can hide by becoming one of two playable if somewhat underwhelming Blackwing Synchros (among other possibilities) with Shura or Bora or whatever it is that Blackwings play, making the opponent's job of protecting the unfortunate Gale target that much harder, especially if the target is something that the opponent has spent time and resources to summon.

 

(I could very easily go into the implications that retaining Gale holds for this game, especially for the mentality that holds that high-Level-and-Rank monsters that take time and toil to be dropped are better design than the ones that don't -- but I think you should be able to figure that out.)

 

To illustrate -- say the opponent has Leviathan Dragon as well as Mirror Force and it's my turn. I Normal Summon Gale and activate its effect, targeting Leviathan Dragon, and so proceed to attack. Opponent chains Mirror Force, destroying Gale, but now the opponent has a vastly weakened Leviathan Dragon, something I can now easily destroy by battle next turn if he doesn't commit protection.

 

One could go 'oh, but [insert random 1-for-1 removal] can just destroy the monster straightaway, so why don't you ban it?' Well, let's just say Smashing Ground has never become a Synchro.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler="Blackwing - Kalut the Moon Shadow/Honest"]

 

 

Both of these cards share the problem Gale poses, but in a way only hand-Traps can deliver.

 

Yep, I don't know how to read that either.

 

:blink:

[/spoiler]

Black Whirlwind
Card Destruction
Card Trooper
Chain Strike
Charge of the Light Brigade
Chimeratech Fortress Dragon
Dandylion
Dark Armed Dragon
ELEMENTAL HERO STRATOS
Gateway of the Six
Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World
Honest
Hope for Escape
Infernity Archfiend/Launcher
Inzektor Hornet
Judgment Dragon
Legendary[space]Six[space]Samurai[space][dash][space]Shi[space]En
Limiter Removal
Lonefire Blossom
Mezuki
Mind Control
Monster Reborn
Morphing Jar
Moulinglacia the Elemental Lord
Pot of Avarice
Reasoning
Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon
Rekindling
Rescue Rabbit
Return from the Different Dimension
Royal Tribute

Spellbook Judgment Day
Spore
T. G. Hyper Librarian
Tour Guide from the Underworld
Treeborn Frog
Ultimate Offering
Wind-Up Rat
Wind-Up Hunter

[/spoiler]

 

 

[spoiler="Limited (8)"]

 

Blaster, Elemental Dragon of Calderas

Green Gadget/Red Gadget/Yellow Gadget
Reborn Tengu

Redox, Elemental Dragon of Crags

Tempest, Elemental Dragon of Cyclones

Tidal, Elemental Dragon of Cascades

[/spoiler]

 

 

 

[spoiler="Unlimited (46)"]

 

Advanced Ritual Art
A HERO LIVES
Book of Moon
Bottomless Trap Hole
Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier
Burial from the Different Dimension
Chaos Sorcerer
Debris Dragon
DESTINY HERO - MALICIOUS
Dewloren, Tiger King of the Ice Barrier
E - Emergency Call
Exodia the Forbidden One
Foolish Burial
Formula Synchron
Gladiator Beast Bestiari
Goyo Guardian
Inzektor Dragonfly
Hieratic Seal of Convocation
Left Arm of the Forbidden One
Left Leg of the Forbidden One
Magical Stone Excavation
Magician of Faith
Metamorphosis
Mind Crush
Monster Gate
Neo-Spacian Grand Mole
One for One
Plaguespreader Zombie

Pot of Duality
Primal Seed
Reinforcement of the Army
Right Arm of the Forbidden One
Right Leg of the Forbidden One
Scapegoat
Shien's Smoke Signal
Summoner Monk
T. G. Striker
The Agent of Mystery - Earth
The Transmigration Prophecy
Thousand-Eyes Restrict
Time Seal
Torrential Tribute
Tribe-Infecting Virus
Tsukuyomi
Wall of Revealing Light
Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaity

[/spoiler]

 

 

[spoiler="Unsure (9)"]

 

Atlantean Dragoons
Atlantean Heavy Infantry
Atlantean Marksman
Gishki Aquamirror
Mirror Force
Sangan
Solemn Judgment
Solemn Warning
Witch of the Black Forest

[/spoiler]

[/spoiler]

 

 

 

 

 

This list, while an ideal one, is by no means final. Feel free to comment and rage as you see fit.

[dokktorawesome]

I agree with: banning BLS envoy of beginning, spellbook judgment day, stratos, mind control and ultimate offering. i disagree with banning grapha and kalut (grapha b/c then dark worlds are screwed; perhaps to 1 or 2?) and (kalut perhaps back to 2?)

 

Just my personal opinion.

[Exiro]

i disagree with banning grapha and kalut (grapha b/c then dark worlds are screwed; perhaps to 1 or 2?)

 

Just my personal opinion.

i disagree with banning Reversal of Graves and kalut (Reversal of Graves b/c then Reversal of Graves FTK are screwed; perhaps to 1 or 2?)

 

Just my personal opinion.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Why the heck is Tengu limited? It's not problematic in the absolute slightest at 2. You banned Allure and Gorz, that's bad. You banned Card Trooper, that's bad. You banned Reasoning and Chimeratech, my god. Unlimits are good, but most of the bans are terrible. I wouldn't like playing under this list much.

[Suibon]

Why the heck is Tengu limited?

 

Because banning it is senseless and because I hope nobody thinks Tengu is exemplary design.

 

 

You banned Allure and Gorz, that's bad.

 

One is a near-generic draw card and the other is a retaliatory beatstick and then some. Both are justified because the game is so shitty as it is, and is gonna get even more like Zimbabwe come LTGY -- but what happens if shit be cleansed?

 

 

You banned Card Trooper, that's bad.

 

I could understand people getting baffled by seeming anachronisms -- after all, what is Card Trooper but a momentary beatstick that allows a lot of damage for a draw and some Grave set-up? You might say, '... this is 2013, not 2007. Grow up.'

 

Exactly.

 

 

You banned Reasoning and Chimeratech, my god.

 

One gives you free milling or a free monster, the other is unprecedented hate. Or would you like me to elaborate?

[Wave_Sine]

>People complaining about things that have been banned
>People not noticing what has been put to 3

On that note, why is Exodia, of all things, put to 3? I barely care that Time Seal, Tribe Infecting Virus, Metamorphosis, Goyo Guardian, and Thousand-Eyes Restrict are at 3 if every piece of Exodia is also at 3. Unless 'unlimited' means something different for this list, Exodia decks get a ton of consistency out of nowhere.

On that note, what would the best Exodia deck in this format be? Very little card draw or stall that the current deck uses had been hit, so One Day etc. are still at 3.

[Just Crouton]

Ideal, as in healthy for the game, or for your self-serving wants?

 

Basically, you hit a lot of recent stuff, while putting broken cards to 3 like

 

Brionac, which bounces as many cards as you have a hand.

Goyo Guardian, a 2800 body that steals monsters (people need to stop wanting this card back.)

Tribe-Infecting Virus, which happily nukes your opponent's front row for a single discard and has a 1600 body.

Exodia, which auto-wins.

Thousand-Eyes Restrict, which steals monsters for free, and shuts down your opponent's attacks

Metamorphosis, which summons Restrict by sacking a Sheep Token, among other Fusions

Reinforcement of the Army, which searches any Level 4- Warrior.

Torrential Tribute, which field-nukes in response to any summon.

Grand Mole, which endlessly recycles itself while bouncing an opponent's monster.

 

This is not an ideal banlist. This is a terrible banlist.

 

Why should any of the above mentioned cards be put to 3? How do they make the game healthy? How do they balance the game?

[Superdoopertrooper]

Because banning it is senseless and because I hope nobody thinks Tengu is exemplary design.

 

Whether you think it's exemplary or not doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly fine at 2. And at 2, it actually is exemplary. In fact, it's a rather bad card at 2.

 

One is a near-generic draw card and the other is a retaliatory beatstick and then some. Both are justified because the game is so shitty as it is, and is gonna get even more like Zimbabwe come LTGY -- but what happens if shit be cleansed?

 

It's not near-generic at all, and even if it was, so what? What's inherently bad about generic draw cards? Upstart, Duality, etc are all perfectly fine. So is this. Gorz is like Heavy Storm and Dark Hole in that it has a positive effect on the game and makes players have more to think about, which is always a good thing. And no, neither of these cards are justified because of how bad the game currently is; even after a big cleanup of the game, I would never ban either of these 2 cards.

 

I could understand people getting baffled by seeming anachronisms -- after all, what is Card Trooper but a momentary beatstick that allows a lot of damage for a draw and some Grave set-up? You might say, '... this is 2013, not 2007. Grow up.'

 

In 2007, it was still fine. Trooper could even go to 3 right now, moving it in the other direction is a wtf movement indeed.

 

One gives you free milling or a free monster, the other is unprecedented hate. Or would you like me to elaborate?

 

You really need to re-evaluate your definition of "free". The mills are almost always just Spells and Traps, which are generally useless to have in the Grave, and your opponent can call it right, making it a -1. Even if it works, there's no guarantee at all it will even be something useful for you at the time. Chimeratech is a perfectly legitimate counter to machines, banning it is just insane.

Ideal, as in healthy for the game, or for your self-serving wants?

 

Basically, you hit a lot of recent stuff, while putting broken cards to 3 like

 

Brionac, which bounces as many cards as you have a hand.

Goyo Guardian, a 2800 body that steals monsters (people need to stop wanting this card back.)

Tribe-Infecting Virus, which happily nukes your opponent's front row for a single discard and has a 1600 body.

Exodia, which auto-wins.

Thousand-Eyes Restrict, which steals monsters for free, and shuts down your opponent's attacks

Metamorphosis, which summons Restrict by sacking a Sheep Token, among other Fusions

Reinforcement of the Army, which searches any Level 4- Warrior.

Torrential Tribute, which field-nukes in response to any summon.

Grand Mole, which endlessly recycles itself while bouncing an opponent's monster.

 

This is not an ideal banlist. This is a terrible banlist.

 

Why should any of the above mentioned cards be put to 3? How do they make the game healthy? How do they balance the game?

 

Are you seriously saying that Exodia and his pieces being at 3 would make any difference to Exodia decks? Literally no self-respecting Exodia deck would ever run more than 1 of each piece. Tribe-Infecting Virus is perfectly fine, generally it will just turn any card in your hand into a smashing ground, and if your opponent controls multiple monsters of the same type, that's their fault for doing so without having any counters to a potential Tribe. Restrict is fine, a relic of the past and I would welcome it back in a heartbeat.

[Sora1499]

This list made me commit suicide. Goodbye everyone. I'm gone now.

[Synchronized]

Gonna be honest, I'm with Trooper here...

 

Tengu's fine @ 2, Allure's fine @ 1.  Card Trooper is fine @ 3.  Just ban Machine Duplication to stop stupid OTK's.  Neither Tengu nor Allure is the greatest design but there's no need to ban things just for the sake of banning them because's not realistic at all.  

 

And what crazy logic made you think Goyo Guardian would be acceptable at anything other than 0?

[Just Crouton]

Are you seriously saying that Exodia and his pieces being at 3 would make any difference to Exodia decks? Literally no self-respecting Exodia deck would ever run more than 1 of each piece. Tribe-Infecting Virus is perfectly fine, generally it will just turn any card in your hand into a smashing ground, and if your opponent controls multiple monsters of the same type, that's their fault for doing so without having any counters to a potential Tribe. Restrict is fine, a relic of the past and I would welcome it back in a heartbeat.

_________

 

Exodia should be at 0 because alt wins should never exist in any card game, especially one that can be achieved through a chain of draw spells and a monster that draws more. Whether a player would run 1 of each, or multiples of, Exodia has no business being at 3, or 2, or even 1.

 

 

Tribe-Infecting Virus is a Smashing Ground? Take a look at Tribe-Infecting Virus

 

 

Notice you can destroy all Type [x] for 1 discard, and there's no "Once per turn" clause?

 

It should never come back.

 

Thousand-Eyes Restrict should never come back either. Bad card design aside, Instant Fusion exists and this abortion of a banlist has Metamorphosis and Scapegoat @3, which can drop TER easily.

 

Finally, "[card x] can be countered by [card y] and [card z]" is the worst argument for defending a broken card and people need to stop being bad and thinking it's a reasonable argument. Decks shouldn't HAVE to run specific counters to specific cards in order to survive. That's what happened in March '12 format where every deck required 3 Veiler and 3 Maxx C to survive the ridiculously broken combos of Inzektors and Wind-Ups. Being able to have Veiler on hand or Fiendish Chain set doesn't mean Tribe-Infecting Virus and Chaos Emperor Dragon can come off the banlist and being able to have a set MST/Dust Tornado doesn't mean Mirage of Nightmare and Temple of the Kings can come back.

[Agro]

Banned

 

Allure of Darkness
Blackwing - Gale the Hurricane
Card Trooper
Charge of the Light Brigade
Hope for Escape

Lonefire Blossom
Reasoning

Tour Guide from the Underworld
Wind-Up Rat
Wind-Up Hunter

Limited

 

Reborn Tengu

  

Unlimited

 

Advanced Ritual Art
Book of Moon
Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier
Burial from the Different Dimension
Debris Dragon
Destiny HERO - Malicious

Dewloren, Tiger King of the Ice Barrier
Exodia the Forbidden One
Foolish Burial
Formula Synchron
Gladiator Beast Bestiari
Goyo Guardian
Left Arm of the Forbidden One
Left Leg of the Forbidden One
Metamorphosis
Plaguespreader Zombie

Reinforcement of the Army
Right Arm of the Forbidden One
Right Leg of the Forbidden One
Thousand-Eyes Restrict
Time Seal
Torrential Tribute
Tribe-Infecting Virus
Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaity

 

 

This list, while an ideal one, is by no means final. Feel free to comment and rage as you see fit.

 
 

This list, while an ideal one, is by no means final. Feel free to comment and rage as you see fit.

This list, while an ideal one

list ideal

ideal

ideal

ideal

 
This isn't 4/20, so the fuck did I just read?

[Suibon]

On that note, why is Exodia, of all things, put to 3?

 

People will run 3 of the head and each limb because consistency suffers.

 

 

 

Brionac, which bounces as many cards as you have a hand.

 

That costs you at least two monsters to be summoned, and a card in hand to bounce -- unless costs have suddenly become irrelevant in the larger scheme of things.

 

 

 

Goyo Guardian, a 2800 body that steals monsters (people need to stop wanting this card back.)

 

If your boss or Synchro or Exceed is run over by this card because you thought protecting it is for cowards, then I say it's your own damn fault -- or, I don't see why this game has to be protected from a Synchro that steals monsters only through battle, even if the stats are obnoxiously high.

 

 

Tribe-Infecting Virus, which happily nukes your opponent's front row for a single discard and has a 1600 body.

 

Lightning Vortex. Doesn't use up the Normal Summon -- doesn't need multiple discards to dispose of multiple monsters of different Types -- and currently (and for long past) forgotten since, what, 2007?

 

 

 

Exodia, which auto-wins.

 

If you draw all five cards after a few turns and forget that your opponent sides. Otherwise? Might as well forget about winning by any means whatsoever.

 

 

 

Thousand-Eyes Restrict, which steals monsters for free, and shuts down your opponent's attacks

 

 

*looks at list* Eh, wait, TER's unbanned? Well, let's put it this way -- I considered unbanning TER, but I couldn't think of a reason to do so, and I don't go ahead doing things I don't understand. I then edited the list accordingly before I posted this, or so I thought. My apologies.

 

 

 

Metamorphosis, which summons Restrict by sacking a Sheep Token, among other Fusions

 

What's wrong with trading the services of a few possible miscreant Fusions -- Cyber Twin Dragon and Naturia Exterio come to mind -- for this, to the benefit of a whole mechanic? Without Metamorphosis and with the offending Fusions, you have things like Reaper on the Nightmare and Dark Blade the Dragon Knight and Ryu Senshi continue to fester in design hell simply due to being made Fusions in YGO's infancy; with Metamorphosis unbanned and the offending Fusions disposed of (or maybe not), you now have their services, which increases deckbuilding options --

 

-- and who doesn't want more deckbuilding options?

 

 

 

Reinforcement of the Army, which searches any Level 4- Warrior.

 

... I fail to see anything wrong with searching for any Level 4 or lower Warrior. Enlighten me on this -- all the years I've played YGO, and I fail to see the reason for it being limited beyond other, more problematic factors.

 

 

 

Torrential Tribute, which field-nukes in response to any summon.

 

It's a reactive field-wiping Trap that prevents both players from swarming due to its very nature.

 

 

 

Grand Mole, which endlessly recycles itself while bouncing an opponent's monster.

 

Well and good! Now how do you commit any other monster given that you've wasted your Normal Summon on Mole?

[Agro]

People will run 3 of the head and each limb because consistency suffers.

 

You're still making Exodia more consistent which is really retarded.

 

 

That costs you at least two monsters to be summoned, and a card in hand to bounce -- unless costs have suddenly become irrelevant in the larger scheme of things.

 

It enables OTKs and loops. And yes, costs are irrelevant because they're just going to OTK you anyway.

 

 

If your boss or Synchro or Exceed is run over by this card because you thought protecting it is for cowards, then I say it's your own damn fault -- or, I don't see why this game has to be protected from a Synchro that steals monsters only through battle, even if the stats are obnoxiously high.

 

It's 2800 ATK on a Level 6 Synchro. 2800 also just happens to be the number that is higher than any monster people tend to run. By the way you're explaining your reasoning, I would have to think you've never even played against Goyo.

 

Lightning Vortex. Doesn't use up the Normal Summon -- doesn't need multiple discards to dispose of multiple monsters of different Types -- and currently (and for long past) forgotten since, what, 2007?

 

You can't use Lightning Vortex for as many cards as you have in hand (and don't even try to deny that most decks usually leave a field of a single type), for Synchro or Xyz fodder, or to activate the effect of a Mermail/Atlantean monster. It's a completely different card.

 

 

If you draw all five cards after a few turns and forget that your opponent sides. Otherwise? Might as well forget about winning by any means whatsoever.

 

 

Stop arguing for Exodia. I don't want to play solitaire.

 

 

What's wrong with trading the services of a few possible miscreant Fusions -- Cyber Twin Dragon and Naturia Exterio come to mind -- for this, to the benefit of a whole mechanic? Without Metamorphosis and with the offending Fusions, you have things like Reaper on the Nightmare and Dark Blade the Dragon Knight and Ryu Senshi continue to fester in design hell simply due to being made Fusions in YGO's infancy; with Metamorphosis unbanned and the offending Fusions disposed of (or maybe not), you now have their services, which increases deckbuilding options --

 

-- and who doesn't want more deckbuilding options?

 

Trading a Tragoedia for infinite Shi-En on a 2800 body. Totally fair. Trading Grapha for a 2800 double attacker then reviving it again as if nothing happened. Totally fair. It's a deeply flawed mechanic, OF COURSE IT'S WRONG TO HELP ALONG THAT MECHANIC. I'd rather ban a single card than 3 other cards that aren't problems otherwise.

 

 

... I fail to see anything wrong with searching for any Level 4 or lower Warrior. Enlighten me on this -- all the years I've played YGO, and I fail to see the reason for it being limited beyond other, more problematic factors.

 

You've unbanned Brionac and given Six Samurai 6 ROTA. What about this seems like a good idea to you?

 

 

It's a reactive field-wiping Trap that prevents both players from swarming due to its very nature.

 

It also takes any skill out of its use. You're not going to think twice about using a blatantly overpowered card if you have 3 of them. Hell, it shouldn't even be at 2.

 

 

Well and good! Now how do you commit any other monster given that you've wasted your Normal Summon on Mole?

Mole is fine. You can unban it.

[Suibon]

 

 

Whether you think it's exemplary or not doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly fine at 2. And at 2, it actually is exemplary. In fact, it's a rather bad card at 2.

 

 

How is a floater that doesn't mind being destroyed or banished or sent to the Grave exemplary design? By dint of Synchro-centric decks being at a low ebb competitively?

 

 

It's not near-generic at all, and even if it was, so what? What's inherently bad about generic draw cards? Upstart, Duality, etc are all perfectly fine. So is this.

 

 

Two years ago I would've posed the same question. Luckily someone answered the question by approaching the issue in a wholly different light (while chiding me for a 2008-ish mode of thinking), so I'll go on and explain.

 

Let's put it this way -- all draw cards and searchers reduce variance, 'variance' being the randomness that occurs when you play the game with any deck in which you have a hand in building (you can think of it as 'inconsistency', but it's not precisely the same). Now, the degree with which this variance is reduced is compensated by a loss in something (tempo or cost or something) and/or a restriction in combotastic possibilities to prevent unseemly problems from popping up in the form of OTKs and the like -- Reckless Greed is both a Trap and costs you two Draw Phases; Upstart Goblin lets you draw one card, but your opponent gets 1000 LP (to note how a seemingly puny LP gains impacts the playability of a card, refer to Soul Taker); Duality makes you choose between the top 3 cards in your Deck but disallows you from Special Summoning; Car Dca R D gives you two cards, but forces you to your End Phase. And so on and so forth -- Destiny Draw permits you to draw 2 cards, but only after you discard a Destiny Hero; Cards from Heaven allows you to do the same, but at the cost of discarding a LIGHT Fairy first and forgetting Special Summons for the turn.

 

What about Allure of Darkness? For the two cards it gives you, does it make you lose tempo the way Duality or Ca Rdc Ard do? Is banishing a DARK from your hand after you just expanded it a cost or a 'cost'? Are DARKs as scarce as 1000 ATK or lower Dragon Tuners? Or Destiny Heroes? Or LIGHT Fairies?

 

I think that will be all for now -- I've got a schedule to keep. See you guys.

[Agro]

How is a floater that doesn't mind being destroyed or banished or sent to the Grave exemplary design? By dint of Synchro-centric decks being at a low ebb competitively?

 

 

Because it's not a problem in any way shape or form @2 like it is @3.

 

Remember how Malicious got semi'd and no one heard from it since? Yeah, same thing applies here.

[Blake]

This thread made me read that putting Exodia to 3 makes all Exodia decks less consistent, that lowering the amount of luck in the game is bad, that Reckless Greed is less of a problem card than Allure of Darkness when all it really does is feed degenerate OTKs that the list's maker apparently doesn't realize, and a lot more.

Locked until Pika or Evilfusion decide they want to do something with it, because considering the trend of posts so far, nothing constructive will come of this.

[Catterjune]

I like this topic.

TC's not being rude or disrespectful or swearing like a CC member. None of the members here are being overwhelmingly disrespectful. Everyone's describing what they think is wrong with the list, TC is describing what he thinks is right with it.

Nothing wrong with the trend of posts from what I can tell, other then some people may disagree with them but stuff you disagree with =/= bannable content.

Topic opened.

[Suibon]

I promised you guys explanations for everything with links and examples and all that shit, and you're gonna get it -- after a day.

[Legend Zero]

>Goyo

>"If your boss or Synchro or Exceed is run over by this card because you thought protecting it is for cowards, then I say it's your own damn fault -- or, I don't see why this game has to be protected from a Synchro that steals monsters only through battle, even if the stats are obnoxiously high."

 

How is "you should protect it" justification? The same could be said for BLS and you have that banned. Sure, BLS has the added bonus of removing a monster instead, but Goyo is generic while BLS at least requires Chaos.

 

I'm not trying to make fun of you either, I'm genuinely interested.

[evilfusion]

I find the majority of your unlimited section to be absurd. Most of those cards are viewed to be blights upon the game, such as Brionac due to all the loops and general unfairness of its effect compared to its ease of Summon, Goyo due to being just as easy as Brio to bring out, plus is even BETTER in the days of Synchroing and Xyz. Monster stealing is a very powerful effect.

 

Exodia pieces at 3 is terrible. Exodia is a very unenjoyable and skill-less win condition that just requires spamming stall or draw cards, and you didn't ban all the draw cards in the game.

 

Thousand-Eyes Restrict slows the game down to an immense crawl and is easily Summoned with Metamorphosis or Instant Fusion. Popular belief is that Restrict got banned partially because of Instant Fusion's release.

 

For the most part, the list isn't terrible...except for the Unlimited Section, which is filled with horrible, horrible choices of cards to allow at 3.

[Suibon]

How is "you should protect it" justification? The same could be said for BLS and you have that banned. Sure, BLS has the added bonus of removing a monster instead, but Goyo is generic while BLS at least requires Chaos.

 

Banishing a LIGHT and a DARK from the Grave does not a cost make. On the other hand, all ways to Goyo that I know of are at least a -1, something that Goyo tries to make up for by being huge for its Level and thus being able to run over most other monsters of whatever description. But that alone won't be enough to completely exonerate Goyo, so let's try another tack --

 

-- think of Goyo as Hydrogeddon. A big, scary-looking, but costed Hydrogeddon.

[Agro]

Banishing a LIGHT and a DARK from the Grave does not a cost make. On the other hand, all ways to Goyo that I know of are at least a -1, something that Goyo tries to make up for by being huge for its Level and thus being able to run over most other monsters of whatever description. But that alone won't be enough to completely exonerate Goyo, so let's try another tack --

 

-- think of Goyo as Hydrogeddon. A big, scary-looking, but costed Hydrogeddon.

The -1 for Goyo's summoning can hardly be used as a reason for it to not be compared to BLS in that way. -1 is nothing. I can make a Level 6 Synchro in my sleep. If you'll recall, Dragunities are still a thing. Of course it's not enough to completely exonerate Goyo. It's not enough to even remotely make it seem okay.

 

And don't go comparing Hydrogeddon to Goyo. Hydrogeddon can hardly run over anything and can only summon another copy of itself. Goyo can run over most anything in the meta and then steal it.

[Suibon]

The -1 for Goyo's summoning can hardly be used as a reason for it to not be compared to BLS in that way. -1 is nothing. I can make a Level 6 Synchro in my sleep.

 

The -1 means committing and using up resources to summon Goyo, whether it be off a Zombie Master or a Dragunity Dux drop, to be used again at the cost of even more resources or else not be used at all, without using up the Normal Summon.

 

When it comes to setting up shenanigans, that's pretty damn relevant.

 

 

 

And don't go comparing Hydrogeddon to Goyo. Hydrogeddon can hardly run over anything and can only summon another copy of itself. Goyo can run over most anything in the meta and then steal it.

 

Hydrogeddon and Goyo Guardian both require to battle and destroy opposing monsters to make use of their effects, thus exposing them to Battle Phase counters and the like, thus necessitating protection and buffs for Hydrogeddon's and Goyo's attacks to go through.

 

You said that Hydrogeddon can hardly run over anything; that is to its credit -- in exchange for a potential Rank 4, you have to commit resources to have it run over something. Goyo, while far bigger than Hydrogeddon, has to do pretty much the same thing while being a Synchro with the attendant costs.

 

Get my drift?

[Agro]

Black Luster Soldier can only attack twice if it attacks once and destroys a monster, thus exposing them to Battle Phase counters and the like, thus necessitating protection and buffs for BLS's attacks to go through.

 

I can use the exact same amount of resources to summon Goyo Guardian as I use to summon Hydrogeddon, so yes, I get your drift. Your drift is trying to swim upstream. Only using up a single normal summon.

 

It's infinitely easier to use Goyo Guardian's effect than it is to use Hydrogeddon's effect. You'd know this if you played in any format where Goyo existed. They aren't a good comparison at all and the "resources" you need to summon and use the effects of either aren't comparable.

 

Also, looking through your unlimited section... do you have any idea why cards were put in the banlist in the first place and how long have you even been playing Yugioh?