Monster Reborn

[Northern Sage]

 

 

Target 1 monster in either player's Graveyard; Special Summon it.

It can really go to 0.

Discuss.

[mido9]

It wins games.

 

A lot.

[Sora1499]

It's only as good as its targets. The problem is that its targets are pretty damn good.

[Nathanael D. Striker]

[quote name="Sora sight I cannot unsee" post="6196194" timestamp="1368019238"]It's only as good as its targets. The problem is that its targets are pretty damn good.[/quote] So, you are saying that other problem cards make this card a problem card?

[Sora1499]

[quote name="Striker." post="6196201" timestamp="1368019708"]So, you are saying that other problem cards make this card a problem card?[/quote] Yes and no. A "problem card" for reborn is basically any halfway-decent boss monster or any tuner. They make reborn a problem, but we can't realistically go about banning all of them just to keep a single card.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Yes and no. A "problem card" for reborn is basically any halfway-decent boss monster or any tuner. They make reborn a problem, but we can't realistically go about banning all of them just to keep a single card.

 

> Tuners

> Inherently problematic with Reborn

> Wth am I reading

 

More OT: Reborn is a card which I think is good to have in the game. Without it, there's no viable way to access the opponents fallen monsters, there's not as much potential for comebacks, and there's not as many ways to continue your turn if your opponent uses a trap to stop your summon.

 

It does have some slight faults, but they aren't quite enough to warrant a ban imo.

[Nathanael D. Striker]

[quote name="Superdoopertrooper" post="6196224" timestamp="1368024162"]> Tuners > Inherently problematic with Reborn > Wth am I reading   More OT: Reborn is a card which I think is good to have in the game. Without it, there's no viable way to access the opponents fallen monsters, there's not as much potential for comebacks, and there's not as many ways to continue your turn if your opponent uses a trap to stop your summon.[/quote] I'm sorry, but Fire Fists exist. You know, that Deck that has a Tuner and a Synchro along side Xyzs. Yea, Tuners and Synchros aren't out of the picture yet. And you honestly think a free grab from with Graveyard is fair? And thanks for addressing one of Reborn's problems, it turns the tide of the duel a bit too well. It allows people who should have lost to comeback with whatever they wish from the Grave. A bit too much, wouldn't you say?

[Toffee.]

Without it, there's no viable way to access the opponents fallen monsters-

Except this is terrible reasoning :/
Like, say for example, you drop Dark Hole(or any other mass-monster removal) first then proceed to drop This; Your always going to pick the strongest monster, and in this case, it's whatever the Opponent just had out that you hit with said nuke.
From there you just mooch off the Opponent's hard work and effortlessly sack the win, all just because you "conveniently" drew into Reborn.

[Aerion Brightflame]

> Tuners

> Inherently problematic with Reborn

> Wth am I reading

 

More OT: Reborn is a card which I think is good to have in the game. Without it, there's no viable way to access the opponents fallen monsters, there's not as much potential for comebacks, and there's not as many ways to continue your turn if your opponent uses a trap to stop your summon.

 

It does have some slight faults, but they aren't quite enough to warrant a ban imo.

 

 

Why are you using the fact that the summon can be be stopped as justification for this still existing in part at least? Because that's been well established as faulty logic, because by that logic every card in the game that has a counter is balanced.

 

We shouldn't need to access our opponents graveyards to make plays, or comebacks. It doesn't promote skill other than what monster that's be played fits the situation. Unlike the other power spells, it's not necessary, and so should be at 0, IMO.

 

Also, inb4 you call me butt hurt for people using Reborn on my monsters and winning as a result.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Except this is terrible reasoning :/
Like, say for example, you drop Dark Hole(or any other mass-monster removal) first then proceed to drop This; Your always going to pick the strongest monster, and in this case, it's whatever the Opponent just had out that you hit with said nuke.
From there you just mooch off the Opponent's hard work and effortlessly sack the win, all just because you "conveniently" drew into Reborn.

 

Oh yes, because dropping strong monsters these days is just so hard, and requires so much effort. Whew, lucky I work out actually. All that hard work, sweat dripping down and all.

 

And Dark Hole + Monster Reborn? That's a 2-card combo in which both pieces are unsearchable and limited, meaning you have a 1.9% chance of opening with it (less than once every 50 games), not to mention it's not going to automatically win you the game or anything. If you happen to have that combo, good for you.

 

So yeah, pretty sure the terrible reasoning is coming from you.

[~British Soul~]

Y'know what? I'd be fine if this goes tbh, as we do have cards liek Call @3.

[Toffee.]

So yeah, pretty sure the terrible reasoning is coming from you.

Didn't specifically say just Dark Hole, I said "or any other mass-monster removal".
While Reborn is@1, yea, monster nukes are common in today's game.
So it's only the former that's unsearchable.

[Just Crouton]

Ban it. We have CotH. The game doesn't need topdecks/ 1-card comebacks.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Why are you using the fact that the summon can be be stopped as justification for this still existing in part at least? Because that's been well established as faulty logic, because by that logic every card in the game that has a counter is balanced.

 

Reading comprehension plz. What I said had nothing to do with counters for Reborn.

 

We shouldn't need to access our opponents graveyards to make plays, or comebacks. It doesn't promote skill other than what monster that's be played fits the situation. Unlike the other power spells, it's not necessary, and so should be at 0, IMO.

 

Why shouldn't we be able to? Being able to use your opponent resources against them is a great dimension that Reborn adds into the game. Why should everything be "yours is yours, mine is mine, if you don't main a card that can do anything against my board right now, you lose"? Removing the versatility of Reborn from the game just loses a dimension the game has. Konami is smart enough to know that at least.

 

Also, inb4 you call me butt hurt for people using Reborn on my monsters and winning as a result.

 

That is indeed being quite butthurt. If you sulk over your opponent using your own monster against you, tough cookies. If Reborn is banned, I no longer have to worry about my opponent using my fallen monsters against me and no longer have to factor that into my decisions. Sorry for wanting that dimension to exist in the game, and sorry for not wanting the game to be dumbed down even more.

[Somnia]

I don't see what all the commotion is about. 

 

Unless it was a BLS, one single monster revival isn't going to turn the tides of a "game you had in the bag" because if you did then you'd have an answer for it. To me the card doesn't warrant a ban. It's merely an Adrenaline shot that doesn't even see play most games. 

[Mysty]

Why shouldn't we be able to? Being able to use your opponent resources against them is a great dimension that Reborn adds into the game. Why should everything be "yours is yours, mine is mine, if you don't main a card that can do anything against my board right now, you lose"? Removing the versatility of Reborn from the game just loses a dimension the game has. Konami is smart enough to know that at least.

 

 

That is indeed being quite butthurt. If you sulk over your opponent using your own monster against you, tough cookies. If Reborn is banned, I no longer have to worry about my opponent using my fallen monsters against me and no longer have to factor that into my decisions. Sorry for wanting that dimension to exist in the game, and sorry for not wanting the game to be dumbed down even more.

It's an unneeded dimension in the game. Decks nowadays are generally so archetype-specific that, in many cases, if you're reviving your opponent's monster and they're running a different deck than you, the most it will likely do is be a big beater, and maybe provide slight disruption to your opponent. That isn't "dimensionalizing" the game any more, that's allowing someone to +0 out an obnoxiously strong monster for no effort.

 

Unless it was a BLS, one single monster revival isn't going to turn the tides of a "game you had in the bag" because if you did then you'd have an answer for it. To me the card doesn't warrant a ban. It's merely an Adrenaline shot that doesn't even see play most games. 

Because everyone always has an answer, right? People always have a Starlight Road among their 2 or 3 backrow when their opponent Heavy Storms, right?
Just because your deck may have an answer, doesn't mean it wasn't blown up when your opponent Heavy Storm'd just now or a few turns ago. Sometimes you just might not draw the response card.

You even said, "Unless it's a BLS." Get what: BLS is still not banned for some reason, that reason being Konami believes other powerful monsters exist.
Even if you don't use the monster directly, you could bring back one of their Level 7s that seem to be everywhere and Xyz it with your own Level 7 for a Number 11 and turn the tides of the duel easily.

Monster Reborn is great for just about any part of the game past the first turn (and even sometimes the first turn). While you have options and you have it, you can get the extra summon you need to push for victory. Late game, when both players' resources are exhausted (which was a thing before E-Dragons became a thing), one strong monster could shift an entire game, either by wrecking their strategy and/or just having the biggest monster on the board.

[swag swag swag swag swag s]

>2013

>Still want Reborn banned

[Somnia]

That's entirely my point. If you don't have an answer to a top deck Reborn, then what did you have an answer to? It could have been anything. Tenki, Moulinglacia, Cercyon. And you probably couldn't stop those either, so how was the game already decided?

[Superdoopertrooper]

That's entirely my point. If you don't have an answer to a top deck Reborn, then what did you have an answer to? It could have been anything. Tenki, Moulinglacia, Cercyon. And you probably couldn't stop those either, so how was the game already decided?

^ This guy gets it.

[Mysty]

That's entirely my point. If you don't have an answer to a top deck Reborn, then what did you have an answer to? It could have been anything. Tenki, Moulinglacia, Cercyon. And you probably couldn't stop those either, so how was the game already decided?

Each kind of response card works for different kinds of cards. For example, an MST works wonders against Tenki but not Monster Reborn or Tour Guide. Bottomless Trap Hole works wonders against many good Monster Reborn targets but not against a Normal Summoned Tour Guide (who could go into a Zenmaines. Good luck Bottomlessing that).
The entire reason Counter Fairies as a deck failed was for this very reason: counters only work against certain kinds of cards and you can't consistently get the exact ones for the scenario.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Reading comprehension plz. What I said had nothing to do with counters for Reborn.

 

True enough, I apoligise for jumping to conclusions on your point without properly reading. You said that if the summon is stopped then you have less plays to make that turn, paraphrased anyhow. Isn't that true of any card summon in the game? So, why by that logic does it deserve the mention for Reborn? (This ones out of curiosity)

 

Why shouldn't we be able to? Being able to use your opponent resources against them is a great dimension that Reborn adds into the game. Why should everything be "yours is yours, mine is mine, if you don't main a card that can do anything against my board right now, you lose"? Removing the versatility of Reborn from the game just loses a dimension the game has. Konami is smart enough to know that at least.

 

Wow, you only implied I was being butt hurt. Shocker. If this was a good dimension for the game, then why doesn't more stuff exist that does the same or similar? I mean, we have hand control, burn, banishing, and practically every other gimmick in existance, so why haven't they expanded on a concept that was made in one of the original cards of the game, when there have been other weaker versions of MST for example? Why not one that specifically takes from your opponents graveyard? It implies a lot about the power of the mechanic.

 

That is indeed being quite butthurt. If you sulk over your opponent using your own monster against you, tough cookies. If Reborn is banned, I no longer have to worry about my opponent using my fallen monsters against me and no longer have to factor that into my decisions. Sorry for wanting that dimension to exist in the game, and sorry for not wanting the game to be dumbed down even more.

 

On the this point, I disagree. Unlike power spells like Heavy, which punishes over extension and does encourage a healthy mind set, Reborn taking stuff from your opponents grave grave is in part saying don't summon good monsters. Which is not a healthy mind set. Some would then go onto say, it's your fault for not protecting them, which in my mind is stupid reasoning, which I think Chris argued in the last thread of this.

 

You also say you don't want the game to be dumbed down any further. I grant you, there are times where Reborn leads into tactically smart decisions, that aren't game winning by themselves, but slip into good combo's. But by the same extent, it does lead into late game top deck situations that win the game without any thought process involved. That's not even BLS resurrections (Which is the most common example of butt hurt amongst people with this), or specifically taking stuff from your opponent's grave. That doesn't promote intelligent play, or reward skillful play either.

 

Basically the view point of everyone else on the site other than you, is that in the game state we want, where skill is a more important factor, we want cards like Reborn that create come-backs just off of itself without factoring other cards you control, or even your own resources to go, because they aren't cards that promote skillful play in a large enough number of situations.

[Agro]

Why shouldn't we be able to? Being able to use your opponent resources against them is a great dimension that Reborn adds into the game. Why should everything be "yours is yours, mine is mine, if you don't main a card that can do anything against my board right now, you lose"? Removing the versatility of Reborn from the game just loses a dimension the game has. Konami is smart enough to know that at least.

Adding a dimension to the game is okay.

 

Making that added dimension be completely generic, free revival that barely takes any thought? No. Reborn is powerful. Obviously, arguably too powerful. If you REALLY want to have the ability to steal cards from the opponent's Graveyard, you can use Autonomous Action Unit, if you want revival from your own Graveyard, use one of the many options given to you.

 

You don't think in quality gamestates, you think in "I WANT THIS CARD TO BE ABLE TO BE PLAYED SO LET ME HAVE THIS." You're promoting skill-less play and your only arguments are "this wouldn't be used in today's format".

 

 

 

That's entirely my point. If you don't have an answer to a top deck Reborn, then what did you have an answer to? It could have been anything. Tenki, Moulinglacia, Cercyon. And you probably couldn't stop those either, so how was the game already decided?

Ignoring the fact that Tenki, Moulinglacia, and Cercyon should probably all be banned, Tenki has infinite more counters than Reborn, Moulinglacia requires exactly 5 WATER monsters in the Graveyard, and Cercyon not only requires 2 Evilswarm in the Graveyard, but also has far more counters to it than Reborn.

 

None of those suggestions are so lacking of restrictions as Reborn in the slightest.

[Somnia]

Ignoring the fact that Tenki, Moulinglacia, and Cercyon should probably all be banned, Tenki has infinite more counters than Reborn, Moulinglacia requires exactly 5 WATER monsters in the Graveyard, and Cercyon not only requires 2 Evilswarm in the Graveyard, but also has far more counters to it than Reborn.

 

They really shouldn't, because that's where Konami wants to take this game. The Power "Creep" has turned into a headlong dash. Tenki has more counters? What... MST? I mean sure you could always just Bottomless the monster... just like the Reborn'd monster. I'll give you Moulinglacia after all it is a bit of a stretch, but this is a top deck we're talking about though, so it's entirely possible. Cercyon? If you top deck Cercyon, but don't have 2 Lswarm in grave then I don't even. Bottomless counters him right? We've discussed that. Veiler or Fiendish Chain? Maybe, but then again you can Veiler a Reborn'd monster, assuming it was revived for something other than ATK points. If not, then Chain stops it from attacking. 

 

The fact is that Reborn isn't the worst of the cards out there... it just generally ends up being the one you didn't expect.

[Toffee.]

it just generally ends up being the one you didn't expect.

Except in that scenario, assuming it came out of nowhere, you usually have free range to do what you please.

[Agro]

They really shouldn't, because that's where Konami wants to take this game. 

If we were trying to discuss where Konami wants to take this game, I'd be advocating for Chaos Emperor Dragon to go to 3 alongside Sangan, Witch of the Black Forest, and Yata-Garasu.

 

 

Tenki has more counters? What... MST?

Tenki has not just MST but any number of S/T destruction alongside the normal responses to a Spell card. On top of that, it can only search Level 4 or lower Beast-Warrior-Type monsters and as a card, is in no way comparable to free revival, like Reborn. They're two entirely different aspects of the game.

 

I'll give you Moulinglacia after all it is a bit of a stretch, but this is a top deck we're talking about though, so it's entirely possible.

It's also entirely possible to always have a counter to any of these cards. That's not going to happen a majority of the time.

 

Cercyon? If you top deck Cercyon, but don't have 2 Lswarm in grave then I don't even. Bottomless counters him right? We've discussed that. Veiler or Fiendish Chain? Maybe, but then again you can Veiler a Reborn'd monster, assuming it was revived for something other than ATK points. If not, then Chain stops it from attacking. 

Veilering a Reborn'd monster isn't comparable to veilering Cercyon. Only in specific situations is the monster summoned by Reborn going to have low ATK, and if it is, it's likely not meant to be on the field for very long. If Cercyon get's veilered, you've already banished a monster from your Graveyard and lose Cercyon's ability to proceed any further.