Monster Reborn

[Somnia]

I can't argue my position any longer. I've explained it to the best extent possible. You can have your opinion and I'll have mine.

 

I just want you to know... you're wrong and I hate you.

[Agro]

I can argue my position still longer. I've explained it to the best extent possible and why your points are invalid. You can have your opinion and mine is better.

 

I just want you to know... I love you, but I'm right.

 

Have a nice day.

[Aix]

 If Reborn is banned, I no longer have to worry about my opponent using my fallen monsters against me and no longer have to factor that into my decisions.

Who the hell can factor in a Limited topdeck? Chances are, you want to factor in a whole bunch of other things and to do so would often require actions that could make you vulnerable to Monster Reborn. You've got your hands full factoring in other things.

 

You can have your opinion and I'll have mine.

I just want you to know... you're wrong and I hate you.

... dafuq?

[Somnia]

Nobody here watches Workaholics? Really? Well, there goes that joke...

[Sunshine Jesse]

Ban it. We have CotH. The game doesn't need topdecks/ 1-card comebacks.

I disagree. I don't think a game should ever be sealed no matter how much you "outplay" your opponent.

[Suibon]

More OT: Reborn is a card which I think is good to have in the game.

 

Let's hear it. I just hope the reason are good enough to let me feel something other than saying hi to my keyboard using my face, especially as I'm on a trip right now.

 

 

 

Without it, there's no viable way to access the opponents fallen monsters, 

 

 

Oh, there's the rather high LP cost, but that's not why Autonomous Action Unit isn't used -- history has proven that LP costs have been insignificant in hampering the use and abuse of powerful effects. It's because of this --

 

 

 

there's not as much potential for comebacks, and there's not as many ways to continue your turn if your opponent uses a trap to stop your summon.

 

Oh, it isn't as if AAU can't generate comebacks -- it can, but then you're going to use your opponent's Graveyard and your opponent's monsters, and it may be the case that you aren't playing in the mirror, or that you've drawn or used it at a time when nearly everything else you had would've sufficed to push for game.

 

Monster Reborn is used and is problematic precisely because it gives you resources from both Graveyards but especially your own Graveyard, and if its use were restricted to just its user's Grave it would be just as problematic. Being able to target opposing Grave-bound monsters gives it an added dimension -- a worthy one if you want my opinion -- but it's not enough to cover for it being a one-size-fits-all solution to any and all monster-related whims you may have.

 

That is all.

[Superdoopertrooper]

I said 'viable' to specifically exclude Action Unit. Face facts, it sucks.

 

Reborn isn't a universal answer to anything either. It's a versatile one, but not all-encompassing. It's just not worth crying over tbh. Generic power cards like Reborn which reward timing and add extra depth to to game just aren't the source of the games problems.

 

Eg. Goat Control would have been much better if Reborn and Dark Hole existed in place of Pot of Greed and Delinquent Duo. The latter don't add anything good because you just activate them as soon as you draw them, but the former two do add something good and reward better use.

[Legend Zero]

There are three problems with Reborn, imo.

1. Generic in every sense of the word.
2. The only way to make it more versatile is to make it a quick play
3. konami's mindset of how the game should be. (aka big, strong, monsters doing battle) This means that we are only going to get more and more boss cards.

This being said, a lot of things would have to change before Reborn needs banned.

[Superdoopertrooper]

There are three problems with Reborn, imo.

1. Generic in every sense of the word.
2. The only way to make it more versatile is to make it a quick play
3. konami's mindset of how the game should be. (aka big, strong, monsters doing battle) This means that we are only going to get more and more boss cards.

This being said, a lot of things would have to change before Reborn needs banned.

 

1. Being generic in and of itself isn't a problem. I have no idea why people demonize generic cards so much. A card being generic or close to it is a great thing most of the time.

2. Not at all. It could have summoned the monster to either players side of the field, and could have theoretically targeted banished monsters as well.

3. Doesn't matter. If we keep getting more and more easily summoned broken boss cards, game is ruined anyway, so there's no point in taking your anger out on Reborn, which is just one measly +0 special summon, which in the scheme of things, is almost nothing.

[Somnia]

I disagree. I don't think a game should ever be sealed no matter how much you "outplay" your opponent.

^thisjustthis

[Astolfo]

You are making me sad.

Please don't make me sad.

 

Reborn is obscenely broken.

 

You can target almost [b]any[/b] monster in [b]either[/b] grave.

It gives a free monster you can use to get out of a bad situation.

Having some options is great, but in no way should you be able to win from a bad situation because of one card.

You see, real life and Konami Yugioh Show's "Heart of the Cards" are completely conflicting, because you shouldn't be able to beat your opponent with a card anyway.

And if your opponent outplayed you, whether it be because you suck at dueling or you just had bad luck, so what? That's what Yugioh's about. Luck and skill [s]and obscenely broken cards everywhere[/s].

 

Also, the broken bosses are a problem, but Reborn's a problem because you can just get them back right after they should be destroyed, or get rid of your opponent's boss and win because of a cheap shot which shouldn't exist.

[Somnia]

You are making me sad.

Please don't make me sad.

 

Reborn is obscenely broken.

 

You can target almost any monster in either grave.

It gives a free monster you can use to get out of a bad situation.

Having some options is great, but in no way should you be able to win from a bad situation because of one card.

You see, real life and Konami Yugioh Show's "Heart of the Cards" are completely conflicting, because you shouldn't be able to beat your opponent with a card anyway.

And if your opponent outplayed you, whether it be because you suck at dueling or you just had bad luck, so what? That's what Yugioh's about. Luck and skill and obscenely broken cards everywhere.

 

Also, the broken bosses are a problem, but Reborn's a problem because you can just get them back right after they should be destroyed, or get rid of your opponent's boss and win because of a cheap shot which shouldn't exist.

 

Except the monsters it can't...

 

Not only is outplayed and luck contradictory statements, you basically just said that if I drew Reborn... then my opponent shouldn't get mad, because I have good luck and I just outplayed him?

 

Reborn is NOT a game winner. It's just not. It CAN, but that's not usually how it works. i've won an exuberant more number of games because of Heavy Storm than I have Reborn.

 

Shouldn't be able to win from a bad situation with one card? Ok. So we're all fine being able to create a bad situation first turn with one card, but god forbid any card that might give this game some unpredictability. 

[Superdoopertrooper]

Yeah, the "outplayed" argument sucks. We're playing a card game for crying out loud. Luck is a major factor. If I open badly and you open well, how is that anyone's fault? You shouldn't automatically win just because you opened better than the opponent, and the opponent should have ways to make up for that. Reborn is good because, in addition to its other benefits, it can turn tides. We need cards which can cause momentum shifts, because the game would be damn mundane without them and would basically become "whoever gets in the best position first wins".

[Blake]

[quote name="Somnia" post="6197032" timestamp="1368113481"]Shouldn't be able to win from a bad situation with one card? Ok. So we're all fine being able to create a bad situation first turn with one card, but god forbid any card that might give this game some unpredictability. [/quote] Just stepping in to say that you really need to stop, because you're being damn stupid. He's not saying that any one card should make the situation, and to claim he is shows you're grasping at straws in order to try and have an argument. Not picking a side on it either way, but at least Trooper is using logic, not just "OH WELL IF YOU THINK X YOU MUST MEAN Y IS OKAY", which is all I've seen you post here.

[Somnia]

I'm really friggin' tired of the mentality on this site. I've been nothing but polite. What do I get? I get snarky comments that are just slaps in the face. I say "Ok, you think this way, I think the other. To each their own." I get "LOL NOPE. MY WAY RIGHT YOU WRONG, STUPID!" in response. 

 

Well, Mari. What the hell would have me do then? When I make a point and the only contradiction is "NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. REBORN BORK BCUZ LET YOU SUMMON MONSTA!" I really don't know how to respond to that! I try to make points and accept that other people have valid ones too, but it seems the majority of this "community" believe they're right and everyone who doesn't agree is being stupid. That's pretty friggin' stupid. 

 

Man, this place is such a cesspool of elitist rejects. It's just the same 20 people circle jerking each to how smart they are. I think I've met ONE polite, reasonable person and that was Zarkas. I'm sure there are some good people here, but I'm not prepared to wade through the filth to find them. So, uh. With that said. Adios.

[Agro]

The problem is that you only respond with either spam or terrible logic.

 

Wait, you said your problem

 

I really don't know how to respond to that!

You're problem is that you don't know how to respond and you do anyway, which ends up in either terrible logic or spam.

 

And many of us have done more than enough to explain our positions and make arguments to undermine yours.

 

That's what an argument is.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean we have to respect it and it doesn't mean we aren't allowed to argue why the "facts" and "logic" it's based off of are wrong.

 

If you're not okay with having your position cross-examined, you should get off the internet.

[Blake]

I'm really friggin' tired of the mentality on this site. I've been nothing but polite. What do I get? I get snarky comments that are just slaps in the face. I say "Ok, you think this way, I think the other. To each their own." I get "LOL NOPE. MY WAY RIGHT YOU WRONG, STUPID!" in response. 

 

Well, Mari. What the hell would have me do then? When I make a point and the only contradiction is "NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. REBORN BORK BCUZ LET YOU SUMMON MONSTA!" I really don't know how to respond to that! I try to make points and accept that other people have valid ones too, but it seems the majority of this "community" believe they're right and everyone who doesn't agree is being stupid. That's pretty friggin' stupid. 

 

Man, this place is such a cesspool of elitist rejects. It's just the same 20 people circle jerking each to how smart they are. I think I've met ONE polite, reasonable person and that was Zarkas. I'm sure there are some good people here, but I'm not prepared to wade through the filth to find them. So, uh. With that said. Adios.

You mean pointing out your logical flaw... Without taking a side... Is a circle jerk?

 

Hell, I don't even like Trooper and I gave him credit. People on both sides of the argument keep making points, albeit with some reuse, and all you've done is ride Trooper/Zarkus' dick. You're not making points, you're attempting to defuse arguments by pointing out that they're "flawed" based on assumptions while using Zarkus and Trooper's arguments to carry you between cries of "FALLACY!" and "Oh then you support CED but not Reborn", and comments like that.

 

Also, for the record, TCG section is full of people that are between horrible and not quite decent at the game. There's a reason a lot of people don't actually comment here much, even when they DO play the game.

 

I'm not commenting on your side. I'm not commenting on theirs. I'm commenting on how you HAVEN'T made points that weren't already made and all the while proceeded to be "elitist" and act like everyone else is stupid for disagreeing with you and simply trying to attack the idea in incoherent ways, like claiming that saying that Monster Reborn being banworthy means you're supporting Judgment Day (Or whatever game winning card).

[Legend Zero]

1. Being generic in and of itself isn't a problem. I have no idea why people demonize generic cards so much. A card being generic or close to it is a great thing most of the time.
2. Not at all. It could have summoned the monster to either players side of the field, and could have theoretically targeted banished monsters as well.
3. Doesn't matter. If we keep getting more and more easily summoned broken boss cards, game is ruined anyway, so there's no point in taking your anger out on Reborn, which is just one measly +0 special summon, which in the scheme of things, is almost nothing.

1. Being generic itself isn't that big of a deal, except with revival. <-This is an opinion on design principal
2. Well, yeah, you can change the effect entirely and it would be better.
3. Game is ruined anyway so no point in saying a single card is an evil. 11/logic

Also, Graceful Charity is a +0 so....


Once again, I'm not saying this is in need of an immediate ban. Just that it isn't something one should want in the game.

[Superdoopertrooper]

I'm really friggin' tired of the mentality on this site. I've been nothing but polite. What do I get? I get snarky comments that are just slaps in the face. I say "Ok, you think this way, I think the other. To each their own." I get "LOL NOPE. MY WAY RIGHT YOU WRONG, STUPID!" in response. 

 

Well, Mari. What the hell would have me do then? When I make a point and the only contradiction is "NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. REBORN BORK BCUZ LET YOU SUMMON MONSTA!" I really don't know how to respond to that! I try to make points and accept that other people have valid ones too, but it seems the majority of this "community" believe they're right and everyone who doesn't agree is being stupid. That's pretty friggin' stupid. 

 

Man, this place is such a cesspool of elitist rejects. It's just the same 20 people circle jerking each to how smart they are. I think I've met ONE polite, reasonable person and that was Zarkas. I'm sure there are some good people here, but I'm not prepared to wade through the filth to find them. So, uh. With that said. Adios.

 

Ding ding ding. YCM in a nutshell. I don't expect it to change much either, despite our attempts at trying to show them how soppy, dogmatic, outdated and plain incorrect some of their 'ideologies' of the cards in the game are.

[Sunshine Jesse]

And if your opponent outplayed you, whether it be because you suck at dueling or you just had bad luck, so what? That's what Yugioh's about. Luck and skill and obscenely broken cards everywhere.

My point is that luck should go both ways. If you put someone into a situation where they could still win the duel if they topped Reborn or w/e than it might've been wise to play more conservatively.

 

The only cards I truly consider broken (not just banworthy, two aren't mutually inclusive) are those that can win you the duel in most circumstances just by drawing them. Reborn isn't one of those cards, if you ask me. Especially since the worst of the most broken monsters are a lot less broken than they used to be, barring a few (notable) exceptions.

 

In a game where the Graveyard doesn't mean shit, a card that punishes your opponent for wantonly filling it up is welcomed, imo, and I wish there were -more- of these types of cards that were actually viable. Not just cards that prevent your opponent from using what's there; one's that actually punish them for putting it there (or letting it get put there.)

 

dat power creep

 

EDIT: I'm well aware of this card having the problem of further screwing players who are already losing like Solemn does, but I'm just saying that I wouldn't mind more cards like this one as a general rule.

[Aerion Brightflame]

I'm really friggin' tired of the mentality on this site. I've been nothing but polite. What do I get? I get snarky comments that are just slaps in the face. I say "Ok, you think this way, I think the other. To each their own." I get "LOL NOPE. MY WAY RIGHT YOU WRONG, STUPID!" in response. 

 

Well, Mari. What the hell would have me do then? When I make a point and the only contradiction is "NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. REBORN BORK BCUZ LET YOU SUMMON MONSTA!" I really don't know how to respond to that! I try to make points and accept that other people have valid ones too, but it seems the majority of this "community" believe they're right and everyone who doesn't agree is being stupid. That's pretty friggin' stupid. 

 

Man, this place is such a cesspool of elitist rejects. It's just the same 20 people circle jerking each to how smart they are. I think I've met ONE polite, reasonable person and that was Zarkas. I'm sure there are some good people here, but I'm not prepared to wade through the filth to find them. So, uh. With that said. Adios.

 

Just a question, in what way does insulting everyone on the site save one person make you polite? Around here, if you want to have your views respected, you have to earn said respect, much akin to Claire, who came here, argued against everyone's views in a well reasoned manner, and is now respected by most.

 

This is the internet, and this is YCM's TCG section, if you want politeness be somewhere else. It's not found here. The best person at the game on the site is an ass.

 

Also... it's Reborn, the issues with the card are always going to be that it gives you a monster. Just like it's benefits. Saying that we are only using that as an argument against it is kinda pointing out the obvious, because that's what the card does, and hence where the fault will always lie.

 

Just a question, why is Zarkus, the only person other than Trooper who agreed with you, the one who you see as reasonable? When, if you look up from the comment you can see Legend Zero for example, who did not critique your logic, or act like an elitist, and simply named his faults with the cards. It seems to me like you are reflecting. What makes him less reasonable than Zarkus?

 

You and Super seem to be expecting things from our forum, that we don't conform to mostly. Most of us are crap at the game, that's true. And a lot of us do have views on the banlist that are wrong, but we want to hold the game in an idealistic manner, where skill does matter again. Much of the controversy comes from banlists choices, where whilst things like Elma can quite easily come back in this game state, doesn't mean they should. And that's our standing on things. Call us bad for it, but that's our opinion. As you said, each to there own. 

 

And yes, it's true, everyone is entitled to there own view on everything, and whilst we respect that (Kinda), it doesn't stop us from disagreeing with it, and stating said disagreements. 

[Superdoopertrooper]

1. Being generic itself isn't that big of a deal, except with revival. <-This is an opinion on design principal
2. Well, yeah, you can change the effect entirely and it would be better.
3. Game is ruined anyway so no point in saying a single card is an evil. 11/logic


Once again, I'm not saying this is in need of an immediate ban. Just that it isn't something one should want in the game.

 

1. Does that mean you have a problem with Call of the Haunted as well? I don't see the fundamental problem with generic revival and don't think it should be demonized.

2. Well, virtually every Normal Spell in the game can be made better by making it a Quickplay so I don't really see your point about saying that's the only way Reborn could be better, even though I gave a realistic example of how it could be better regardless of that (special summoning to either side of the field).

3. No, but saying it's evil because of said easily summoned broken boss monsters is. Reborn should have nothing to do with them.

 

I like what reborn does for the game, and hence, yes, I do want it here. I explained why last page.

 

A lot of us do have views on the banlist that are wrong, but we want to hold the game in an idealistic manner, where skill does matter again.

 

The problem is that you seem to think that certain power cards can't be skillful or good for the game. You can have a skillful format with Reborn legal and Reborn can be a skillful card to use and have positive effects on the game, which we should be wanting to keep. Cards being powerful is often in itself what makes it good for the game, because they generally have widely varying levels of power which depend on player decisions from both ends (Hole, Heavy, Mind Control, and yes, Reborn). Those cards are the apex of what sets players apart and creates a skill gap.

[Legend Zero]

1. Does that mean you have a problem with Call of the Haunted as well? I don't see the fundamental problem with generic revival and don't think it should be demonized.
2. Well, virtually every Normal Spell in the game can be made better by making it a Quickplay so I don't really see your point about saying that's the only way Reborn could be better, even though I gave a realistic example of how it could be better regardless of that (special summoning to either side of the field).
3. No, but saying it's evil because of said easily summoned broken boss monsters is. Reborn should have nothing to do with them.
 
I like what reborn does for the game, and hence, yes, I do want it here. I explained why last page.

1. Ideally? Yes, I have a problem with Call. This has more to do with its potential for abuse than anything else. Generic cards are fine, but when they become as good as Reborn they limit deck diversity.
2. ....that was my point. :huh: The only way to make Reborn more versatile would be to make it a quick-play, something that would make anything better. Its very versatile is my point.
3. I'm confused now. You say that Reborn's standing should have nothing to do with its targets, yet you said in the Witch thread.

It's slow, and is only as 'broken' as her targets (which currently, isn't even broken at all).

Why is Reborn exempt from this treatment? Just as Witch has a vast target range, so does this.

[Agro]

2. ....that was my point. :huh: The only way to make Reborn more versatile would be to make it a quick-play, something that would make anything better. Its very versatile is my point.

You need to make the point that there's not much you can do, sans changing the effect entirely, to make Reborn more versatile, whereas the other cards you can compare it to have things like restrictions and downsides to balance them. Most cards could be made versatile in far more ways than Reborn can without changing their effects entirely.

[Astolfo]

I'm really friggin' tired of the mentality on this site. I've been nothing but polite. What do I get? I get snarky comments that are just slaps in the face. I say "Ok, you think this way, I think the other. To each their own." I get "LOL NOPE. MY WAY RIGHT YOU WRONG, STUPID!" in response.

Well, Mari. What the hell would have me do then? When I make a point and the only contradiction is "NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. REBORN BORK BCUZ LET YOU SUMMON MONSTA!" I really don't know how to respond to that! I try to make points and accept that other people have valid ones too, but it seems the majority of this "community" believe they're right and everyone who doesn't agree is being stupid. That's pretty friggin' stupid.

Man, this place is such a cesspool of elitist rejects. It's just the same 20 people circle jerking each to how smart they are. I think I've met ONE polite, reasonable person and that was Zarkas. I'm sure there are some good people here, but I'm not prepared to wade through the filth to find them. So, uh. With that said. Adios.

Good riddance.