Constellar Pollux and Evilswarm Castor Ruling Fixed

[Blake]

If you Normal Summon them successfully, and their effects are not negated from the moment they step on to the field by something like Skill Drain, then for the rest of the turn their effect is applied, regardless of what happens to the monster.

 

http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=4956

[Lonk]

The ruling is honestly stupid in living glory.  Since it IS a continuous effect, it is implied that Veiler negates it.  HOWEVER, with this ruling in place, does that mean that ALL continuous effects are unaffected by veiler?  Why not reword Veiler so that it states "The monster that activates its effects is negated until the End Phase"?  Konami is seriously complicating many more things than what is being fixed.

[Dementuo]

The ruling is honestly stupid in living glory.  Since it IS a continuous effect, it is implied that Veiler negates it.  HOWEVER, with this ruling in place, does that mean that ALL continuous effects are unaffected by veiler?  Why not reword Veiler so that it states "The monster that activates its effects is negated until the End Phase"?  Konami is seriously complicating many more things than what is being fixed.

It's because of the wording on the effects of Pollux and Castor. Since they work like Double Summon, they place a continuous condition on the field that gets used up when the player preforms the additional Normal Summon. Once the condition is placed, it can't be removed by any other means.

[Miror B]

The ruling is honestly stupid in living glory.  Since it IS a continuous effect, it is implied that Veiler negates it.  HOWEVER, with this ruling in place, does that mean that ALL continuous effects are unaffected by veiler?  Why not reword Veiler so that it states "The monster that activates its effects is negated until the End Phase"?  Konami is seriously complicating many more things than what is being fixed.

It's a continuous effect that places a condition.

Veiler still negates other continuous effects. Theirs just applies the condition instantly.

[Wildflame]

Was this ever in dobut?

[Blake]

Was this ever in dobut?

YCS New Jersey had the head judge claim veiler/bottomless/etc. Made them not work.

 

Apparently he was fired, but haven't seen that stated officially.

[Toffee.]

So.... Pollux/Castor are now even more crucial to the deck?
Makes sense.

[Blake]

So.... Pollux/Castor are now even more crucial to the deck?
Makes sense.

But this is how it always was, but YCS NJ's head judge was a moron.

[Dementuo]

But this is how it always was, but YCS NJ's head judge was a moron.

Only head judge I've seen that isn't a moron was this really nice black guy who acted as head judge a few Regionals ago. He was replaced by this guy who was a total idiot and didn't even know how the Optional End Phase Trigger VS Effect Veiler ruling worked. He gave some pretty crappy excuses to back himself up too.

[Miror B]

But this is how it always was, but YCS NJ's head judge was a moron.

A friend who judged there said it was a group decision between the head and the assistant heads, not just him.

[Blake]

[quote name="Miror~" post="6201743" timestamp="1368680041"]A friend who judged there said it was a group decision between the head and the assistant heads, not just him.[/quote] Every source I've heard said all the other judges protested and he wouldn't hear anything of the sort.

[Miror B]

Every source I've heard said all the other judges protested and he wouldn't hear anything of the sort.

Well I guess we can't say much unless we were actually there now can we?

[Superdoopertrooper]

So.... Pollux/Castor are now even more crucial to the deck?
Makes sense.

 

They have always been completely crucial to the deck... And the ruling was always that way.

[darkwolf777]

The "clarified ruling" is still misleading as hell.

 

1) A monster that's been "Normal Summon" is still "Normal Summoned", regardless of whether Skill Drain was on the field or not at the time it was summoned.

 

2) If Skill Drain was on the field, and Pollux was summoned, then if Skill Drain could be removed sometime during this turn, Pollux's Continuous Effect can then be applied and you'd be able to get your additional Normal Summon.

 

3) If Pollux was summoned and Skill Drain was later activated before the additional Normal Summon happens, then you would have to remove Skill Drain before you can apply Pollux.  You couldn't apply Pollux with it negated or not on the field because it is a Continuous Effect.

 

That's how it should work.  I don't get how the TCG thinks.  This whole "regardless of what happens to the monster" isn't right because the effects are Continuous in nature.

[Blake]

The "clarified ruling" is still misleading as hell.

 

1) A monster that's been "Normal Summon" is still "Normal Summoned", regardless of whether Skill Drain was on the field or not at the time it was summoned.

 

2) If Skill Drain was on the field, and Pollux was summoned, then if Skill Drain could be removed sometime during this turn, Pollux's Continuous Effect can then be applied and you'd be able to get your additional Normal Summon.

 

3) If Pollux was summoned and Skill Drain was later activated before the additional Normal Summon happens, then you would have to remove Skill Drain before you can apply Pollux.  You couldn't apply Pollux with it negated or not on the field because it is a Continuous Effect.

 

That's how it should work.  I don't get how the TCG thinks.  This whole "regardless of what happens to the monster" isn't right because the effects are Continuous in nature.

OCG says that even if the monster is TT'd/Bottomlessed/Etc. it still keeps the double summon.

 

OCG rulings say it's a continuous effect that applies a condition to the gamestate the very moment it is succesfully summoned so long as it was not negated the moment it was summoned; That's the same thing the TCG says.

[darkwolf777]

OCG says that even if the monster is TT'd/Bottomlessed/Etc. it still keeps the double summon.

 

OCG rulings say it's a continuous effect that applies a condition to the gamestate the very moment it is succesfully summoned so long as it was not negated the moment it was summoned; That's the same thing the TCG says.

 

If that's so, the wording on the card is terrible, in both it and translated version of it, from my understanding of the card text since the beginning (of when Pollux first came out)

 

Edit: Hm, In relation to Blizzard Princess, who I always thought worked this way, I guess I can see that they're the same.

[ihop]

If that's so, the wording on the card is terrible, in both it and translated version of it, from my understanding of the card text since the beginning (of when Pollux first came out)

 

Well I guess with Bottomless/TT it doesn't stop the monster having been summoned so you gain the effect. However I don't see how Skill Drain stops it and Veiler doesn't.

[Blake]

Well I guess with Bottomless/TT it doesn't stop the monster having been summoned so you gain the effect. However I don't see how Skill Drain stops it and Veiler doesn't.

Skill Drain does NOT stop it if it's chained to their summon, just like Veiler. Only if it's in effect before they are successfully summoned. 

 

They have to be incapable of having an effect to use at the very split second they are summoned, or it will change the gamestate.

[Miror B]

Well I guess with Bottomless/TT it doesn't stop the monster having been summoned so you gain the effect. However I don't see how Skill Drain stops it and Veiler doesn't.

Same way Skill Drain stops Jinzo but Fiendish Chain doesn't.

 

 

Skill Drain does NOT stop it if it's chained to their summon, just like Veiler. Only if it's in effect before they are successfully summoned. 

 

They have to be incapable of having an effect to use at the very split second they are summoned, or it will change the gamestate.

*responded

Can't chain to a summon. Only respond.

I nitpick in my spare time.

[ihop]

Same way Skill Drain stops Jinzo but Fiendish Chain doesn't.

 

Fiendish Chain can't activate full stop because Jinzo is out though, wouldn't Effect Veiler stop it negating traps for a turn?

[Blake]

Fiendish Chain can't activate full stop because Jinzo is out though, wouldn't Effect Veiler stop it negating traps for a turn?

Yes. It would. But this isn't like Jinzo in that sense.

 

The only similarity this has to Jinzo is that it's continuous.

 

Pollux and Castor are continuous effects that change the gamestate the very moment they are sucessfully summoned, unless something like D-HERO Plasma or Skill Drain is out.

 

If Shock Master had declared monsters, it would have 0 effect on Castor and Pollux double summoning.

 

The entire point of this design is that it grants you a second normal summon WITHOUT starting a chain, so that things like Veiler can't bother them while things like Skill Drain, which are already blanketing the field, do.

 

If you flip Skill Drain to Jinzo, it doesn't stop it. Same here.

[darkwolf777]

Fiendish Chain can't activate full stop because Jinzo is out though, wouldn't Effect Veiler stop it negating traps for a turn?

 

The idea is that its a Continuous Effect that is applied when its summoned rather than as long as it is face-up on the field.  It doesn't start a chain.  If Skill Drain is on the field when it is Normal Summoned, you wont get the effect even if it is no longer negated later that turn.  If Skill Drain is not on the field when it is Summoned, then the effect is gained and cannot be taken away even if the monster is negated later.

As I said, its easier to see in regards to Blizzard Princess than it is with Pollux.  I always thought Blizzard Princess worked this way, but not vice versa until recently until such a relation was made.

[Miror B]

Fiendish Chain can't activate full stop because Jinzo is out though, wouldn't Effect Veiler stop it negating traps for a turn?

The point is that the minute they're on the field, their effects are applied. I'm trying to make that distinction. The difference being Pollux and Castor set a condition on the field.

Guess you could compare it more to Photon Cerberus :/

[Blake]

The point is that the minute they're on the field, their effects are applied. I'm trying to make that distinction. The difference being Pollux and Castor set a condition on the field.

Guess you could compare it more to Photon Cerberus :/

The article outright says not to do this.

 

Not sure why, but it does.