Dragon Ravine

[heraldry_lord]

Seems neither party will budge from their position.  At least, and more relevant to the topic at hand, you both think Ravine should be hit; that's something you agree on.

[玄魔の王]

Have you even played this game recently? Dragon Ruler mirrors have always, always pushed on the fly decision makign and strategy. A lot more than previous formats to be sure.

Because one mirror is representative of the entire game state. It doesn't excuse the fact they can stomp everything else around them without trying.

"At will" meaning twice per duel if they're semi'd. Where you permanently burn a resource to do so. I'd rather more searching in a game that just plain "I drew better gg".

That's at least once too much. There's a reason Gold Sarc waits so long, after all. And back in the days of Goat Control there really was no "I drew GG", because decks were usually just card toolboxes and it was relatively easy to turn the tide of a game.

the TCG banlist did a lot for the players and what they wanted. So they did it for the players who thought they couldn't harm the gamestate. Not changes I agree with, but still has a reason.

Then stop giving people satisfaction for their stupid wants and build an actual fair format. I'd sooner wipe out every deck within the top 3 tiers and start over than do what they did.

 

Seems neither party will budge from their position.  At least, and more relevant to the topic at hand, you both think Ravine should be hit; that's something you agree on.

Yes, I want it at 0.

[evilfusion]

Keep in mind, that even the OCG saw that Dragon Rulers were absurd and banned the babies. Since the Deck didn't die down enough, they'll be hit again. You can count on it. Even if the OCG doesn't do it, the TCG probably will, because last banlist was amazing by the standard of hitting the biggest Decks, and then making sure older OP Decks couldn't just fill the vacuum. Good Decks that had lost power in previous lists were given a little help to possibly come back, but not enough that they'd dominate again.

 

The only problem with the TCG list then was that Rulers weren't hit hard enough. But that may have been something the OCG didnt expect, either.

 

The majority of opinions I've seen is that Dragon Rulers were one of the worst designed ideas that the game ever produced, but SHSP and LVAL seems to have tried to repair that, and the banlists have also turned against their dragonic overlords. If all the Dragon Rulers were banned, or even limited, we could probably salvage what we can of the game's meta.

 

This card is ridiculous in Rulers due to making any card a Foolish Burial for Dragons, and Dragunities did similar by turning any card into the ideal Dragunity combo. It was a good idea for supporting Dragunity because that was all they had. But they didn't support the archetype enough to a point where this card would become unneeded for the Deck's survival, and therefore, it's not a fair card.

[Blake]

Because one mirror is representative of the entire game state. It doesn't excuse the fact they can stomp everything else around them without trying.

Dragon Mirror's just an especially large example of such. Every matchup in the current game is thought provoking.

That's at least once too much. There's a reason Gold Sarc waits so long, after all. And back in the days of Goat Control there really was no "I drew GG", because decks were usually just card toolboxes and it was relatively easy to turn the tide of a game.

But it was "I drew GG". One player would draw better. Yes, there was toolboxing to be done, but the one who drew better and was on the same skill level would win. Formats like that aren't exactly healthy for the game, though they do make skill shine.

Then stop giving people satisfaction for their stupid wants and build an actual fair format. I'd sooner wipe out every deck within the top 3 tiers and start over than do what they did.

Konami tried something new. For the most part it paid off. Don't look gifthorses in the mouth for not being able to shoot lasers in addition to everything else it does.

[玄魔の王]

Dragon Mirror's just an especially large example of such. Every matchup in the current game is thought provoking.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually had to think this past format when playing any sort of game. If I'm not being forced to scoop because my hands are lolbad (drawing all 3 Handmaidens in Lavals...), I'm dominating without having to invest much thought at all. And I play decks like Ghostrick (pre-LVAL) half the time.

But it was "I drew GG". One player would draw better. Yes, there was toolboxing to be done, but the one who drew better and was on the same skill level would win. Formats like that aren't exactly healthy for the game, though they do make skill shine.

And that is what I want back in this game; a game state where matchups are nearly irrelevant and skill is what allows people to win, not inherently stupid cards. Especially since said cards always become money cards, which means being good at the game ends up boiling down to "who has deeper pockets".

Konami tried something new. For the most part it paid off. Don't look gifthorses in the mouth for not being able to shoot lasers in addition to everything else it does.

I fail to see how it paid off. We still have Rulers. We still have Prophecy. We still have Fire Fists. We still have degenerate rogue decks. Now we have Sackwings and the like back. All it did was give people more excuse to practice being jerks. 

[Blake]

I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually had to think this past format when playing any sort of game. If I'm not being forced to scoop because my hands are lolbad (drawing all 3 Handmaidens in Lavals...), I'm dominating without having to invest much thought at all. And I play decks like Ghostrick (pre-LVAL) half the time.

You cannot say "but I'm not playing a relevant deck and I don't have to think". That does not work as an argument.

And that is what I want back in this game; a game state where matchups are nearly irrelevant and skill is what allows people to win, not inherently stupid cards. Especially since said cards always become money cards, which means being good at the game ends up boiling down to "who has deeper pockets".

The high price tags aren't healthy, but cutting out havign different matchups is cutting out a different type of skill altogether. It's fun to revisit formats like Goat Control, Infernity, or TeleDAD, but they are not good for the game. By cutting out matchusp you cut out prediction, and it all comes down to "who made the best tech choice" and "who got the luckier draw". It can show skill, but it also amps luck up as a factor by a lot.

I fail to see how it paid off. We still have Rulers. We still have Prophecy. We still have Fire Fists. We still have degenerate rogue decks. Now we have Sackwings and the like back. All it did was give people more excuse to practice being jerks. 

So, basically, you don't are that Royal Tribute's at 1, Gateway's at 0, Card Destruction's at 0, Super Rejuv's at 0, Ultime Offering is at 0, Shock Master is at 0, Stratos at 0, the babies at 0, Reborn, Heavy, Avarice, SB of Judgment, and more were hit, and that's not GOOD ENOUGH for you?

That's a lot of improvement to the game. Is it perfect? No, but it's a work in progress, and you shouldn't fault them for thinking they hit dragons enough when a lot of people thought they did. It's an improvement.

Fire Fists aren't even really degenerate now, like wtf?

Prophecy: Hit Master, maybe World, move on, done.

Dickwings aren't even good. They're not even a problem, and will never be good after dragons fall. They die too easily.

[Toffee.]

Especially since said cards always become money cards, which means being good at the game ends up boiling down to "who has deeper pockets".

Dragon Rulers were first printed as Rares.
So technically, it's not always a money issue, but more of a marketing ploy.
A rather stupid one at times, but still.

[Miror B]

Explain to me how a game state where you had constrained resources and had to actually use strategy and thought process to win games is "boring and stale". Have you ever played chess?

Why are you comparing chess, a game where you can look at the board and see every single possible move your opponent can do, to a card game, a game where you only see the backs of the cards and actually have to guess and predict what they could possibly do.

[玄魔の王]

You cannot say "but I'm not playing a relevant deck and I don't have to think". That does not work as an argument.

Tell me why it doesn't, because there's no legitimate reason why any deck in this game SHOULDN'T encourage thinking. And I have played Ruler variants, Prophecy, Tidal Mermail, all that fun stuff. I rotate decks to keep from getting bored (which, as you may have noticed, happens to me a LOT). And all I did was steamroll people. That's not encouraging thought.

The high price tags aren't healthy, but cutting out havign different matchups is cutting out a different type of skill altogether. It's fun to revisit formats like Goat Control, Infernity, or TeleDAD, but they are not good for the game. By cutting out matchusp you cut out prediction, and it all comes down to "who made the best tech choice" and "who got the luckier draw". It can show skill, but it also amps luck up as a factor by a lot.

Except prediction is little more than glorified gambling, and there's no skill in that. Even scientists' theses are little more than gambling until they collect enough evidence to say anything to the contrary. Apply that here, and prediction does little more than help you tech in one of a handful of Achilles Heel cards for a specific match-up, and then fall flat against rogue decks. Decks should not have inherent advantage or disadvantage against each other, as it gives the person in the dominant position no need to exercise skill.

So, basically, you don't are that Royal Tribute's at 1, Gateway's at 0, Card Destruction's at 0, Super Rejuv's at 0, Ultime Offering is at 0, Shock Master is at 0, Stratos at 0, the babies at 0, Reborn, Heavy, Avarice, SB of Judgment, and more were hit, and that's not GOOD ENOUGH for you?

That's a lot of improvement to the game. Is it perfect? No, but it's a work in progress, and you shouldn't fault them for thinking they hit dragons enough when a lot of people thought they did. It's an improvement.

Fire Fists aren't even really degenerate now, like wtf?

Prophecy: Hit Master, maybe World, move on, done.

Dickwings aren't even good. They're not even a problem, and will never be good after dragons fall. They die too easily.

Royal Tribute should be at 0. And while they were busy taking swings like that, they should have hit Vanity's Emptiness, Return from the Different Dimension and Honest, because they're nothing but sack cards.

 

I don't care if Fists are degenerate now, they're every bit as annoying a match-up as Gladiator Beasts because they solve all their problems with 1-2 cards. Which, incidentally, is everyone's biggest problem with Bujin.

[evilfusion]

Dragon Rulers were first printed as Rares.
So technically, it's not always a money issue, but more of a marketing ploy.
A rather stupid one at times, but still.

 

The Rulers themselves aren't the moneymakers. It's the extremely expensive Xyz (No.11, Draco-SAC) that drain your money. Rulers in tins only make money in part because of the desirable reprints, or filling out your playset.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Except prediction is little more than glorified gambling, and there's no skill in that. Even scientists' theses are little more than gambling until they collect enough evidence to say anything to the contrary. Apply that here, and prediction does little more than help you tech in one of a handful of Achilles Heel cards for a specific match-up, and then fall flat against rogue decks. Decks should not have inherent advantage or disadvantage against each other, as it gives the person in the dominant position no need to exercise skill.

Royal Tribute should be at 0. And while they were busy taking swings like that, they should have hit Vanity's Emptiness, Return from the Different Dimension and Honest, because they're nothing but sack cards.

 

I don't care if Fists are degenerate now, they're every bit as annoying a match-up as Gladiator Beasts because they solve all their problems with 1-2 cards. Which, incidentally, is everyone's biggest problem with Bujin.

 

I probably shouldn't get involved, sicne I'll most likely say something stupid but oh well:

 

You're saying that like all gambling is a skillless thing. When if you've ever seen poker for example to be good at you have be skilled. Not saying the same logic applies here, but prediction is actually something hard to do IRL, because of how mind game-like it can be. And it's not even as simple as siding in hate, because you have to prepare for being counter sided against, and for what's being sided against your own deck. Which makes the seemingly simply prediction suddenly complex, and a good thing.

 

And for there to be no good or bad match ups every deck would have to be exactly the same. It's a case of that in every single TCG in the world, some decks will just be better than others. It might give one player an advatnage, but it also tests how good you are with your own deck, and how you can get around a bad match-up. It's an element of skill to using your deck in the game, why would you want it removed?

 

The Royal Tribute: There are an awful lot of cards in the game that should be at 0. Expecting them to deal with all of them in a single banlist is being entirely unrealistic. You should rather be happy that those sorts of hits are now likely to happen because there's immediate precedence.

 

Fire Fists: So because the deck is a toolbox it shouldn't exist? Despite the fact that Fists are one of the most balanced good decks Konami's made in recent memory (When you get rid of 3 Axis and it's stupidity). It's not a reason to call the deck degenerate, or want it to not exist.

[mido9]

Just gut the big dragons and maybe phalanx. The card itself isnt actually a real problem.

[heraldry_lord]

Just gut the big dragons and maybe phalanx. The card itself isnt actually a real problem.

 

A lot of folks in this thread want Ravine hit/banned regardless of what happens to Rulers.  At this stage, I don't know what my opinion of that matter is, but whatever happens to Ravine, it doesn't really affect me either way.

[玄魔の王]

Just gut the big dragons and maybe phalanx. The card itself isnt actually a real problem.

It turns one card in your hand into RotA or Foolish Burial every turn. It's searchable and enables degenerate decks.

[evilfusion]

The REAL issue with Ravine is not just that it's a Foolish Burial, but that it's a Foolish Burial for one of the most supported Types in the game (Dragon), which already possess a ton of revival options not just the generic things like Call of the Haunted, but also (Dragon) Normal Support (Hieratics, Blue-Eyes, Swing of Memories, Silver's Cry, etc), evil things that draw from the Grave like REDMD and Rulers, etc.

 

Because Dragons do so much stuff with the Graveyard and banish zone, much moreso than any other Type or Attribute, a Field Spell (a very searchable Type of card) that lets you turn any dead card into a deck-thinning with potential advantage generation is a very badly designed card. The more support Dragons receive, the more potential Ravine gets.

 

Rulers is just an example of a mini-archetype that thrives on the things Ravine is capable of, and they didn't even need Ravine to be absurd in the first place.

[mido9]

It turns one card in your hand into RotA or Foolish Burial every turn. .

I don't really see anything wrong with that in and of itself. It's just when it's fueling actual degenerate anyway cards (rulers/Redmd/etc) that it gets out of hand

[vla1ne]

I hope they don't kill this card off completely, At 1 should be fine as long as they remember to hit rulers this time around. Not that I'd complain if they did outright ban it, but It's not the heaviest problem in the game right now.

 

Ravine would be fine at 1, same concept as cards like black whirlwind. At 1 you can still benefit, but a single spell/trap destruction card would remove it from the game for good. I know counters don't justify design, but putting it from 3-0 because the rulers can abuse it isn't exactly fair, since unlike super rejuvenation, you can't go +6 off of one use. it can enable OTKs, but that's not completely the fault of this card, it's the fault of cards like Phalanx, BMetal, and the rulers. putting it to 0 and leving the dragons at 3 (or even @2) would be unfair as hell.

 

Ravine and all 4 dragons should go to 1.