Heraldry Emblem of Disownment

[Agro]

 

 
 

Lore:
3 Level 4 Monsters
You can also Xyz Summon this card by using a "Heraldic" Xyz Monster you control as the Xyz Material, other than "Heraldry Emblem of Disownment". (Xyz Materials attached to that monster also become Xyz Materials on this card.) While this card has 3 Xyz Materials, it cannot be targeted by Monster Effects. This card gains 400 ATK for each Xyz Material attached to this card. You can detach 3 Xyz Material from this card: Destroy every other face-up monster on the field. You can target 1 Level 4 or lower "Heraldic Beast" monster in your Graveyard; attach it to this card as Xyz Material. (max. 3) You can only use 1 "Heraldry Emblem of Disownment" effect per turn, and only once that turn.

 

Made this for a contest, now that it's over, thought I'd discuss it.

 

Basically, it's made to be a cannon that loses all its defenses once it uses its effect. It can recharge over 3 turns, but it won't have its monster protection effect in that timespan and has to build itself back up from a measly 1500 ATK although it can move faster if it's got support from the archetype.

 

Thoughts/Suggestions?

[Sleepy]

The attachment from Graveyard effect can finish the job of Twin-Headed Eagle.

 

Two things kill it for me:

1) Only kills face-up monsters and is left with 1500 ATK, getting outclassed by Thunder Spark Dragon in that department. I think the only thing that would change is the ability to go up against Ghostricks, but it'd be more options.

2) It banishes the materials. This is the actual deal-breaker here. It doesn't leave you with Graveyard setup, with Leo's search, or with fodder for Heraldry Arts. It just sounds very counter-productive for the deck overall.

[Agro]

2) It banishes the materials. This is the actual deal-breaker here. It doesn't leave you with Graveyard setup, with Leo's search, or with fodder for Heraldry Arts. It just sounds very counter-productive for the deck overall.

Yeah. I've been trying to find the balance here. Got called out in a 1-v-1 for it being too OP, so I added banish instead of the normal send.

Any suggestions?

[Sleepy]

I'm not a big expert on Heraldic Beast plays from after the Field Spell was introduced, and after a few re-reads, I fail to see how exactly the Field Spell supposed to conflict with C69, but anyways, I'll keep investigating that later. For now, in my humble opinion:

 

The card's best play I could think of is Heraldry Arts into 18, put your card on top, and the end result is a Lightning Vortex that will give you a search with Leo and a double Foolish Burial effect with 18's detachment. Sounds pretty good in my book, leaving you with understandably a monster with relatively low ATK.

I think maybe the ability to repeat that effect based on the amount of copies available, and how you could even recharge it in a single turn with that milled Eagle, giving you at worst another Leo search if the monster is destroyed during your opponent's turn. Yeah, I can see where the "nerf it" comment comes from.

 

Hmm you could change the detach cost from 3 to 2, and prevent effects from activating when detached this way, that way you would have to give up either Leo or 18's effect for the sake of this, and would only get their effects if this card in question is taken down rather than resolving it's effect. Also, leaving 1 material on it that way would prevent Eagle refills, allow you to get something out of this being used as a shield, and it would be able to repeat it's Lightning Vortex effect next turn, which if it keeps the "face-up" part of it's clause, it'll be fine IMO.

 

That's probably all I can think of as of right now.

 

As a quick edit:
The reason I suggested going that route is because if you remove the "stack on top of an Xyz" bit, this is then completely outclassed by Thunder Spark. Also, it still would have some interesting differences to Exciton Knight that might or might not help.

[Agro]

I'm not a big expert on Heraldic Beast plays from after the Field Spell was introduced, and after a few re-reads, I fail to see how exactly the Field Spell supposed to conflict with C69, but anyways, I'll keep investigating that later. For now, in my humble opinion:
 
The card's best play I could think of is Heraldry Arts into 18, put your card on top, and the end result is a Lightning Vortex that will give you a search with Leo and a double Foolish Burial effect with 18's detachment. Sounds pretty good in my book, leaving you with understandably a monster with relatively low ATK.
I think maybe the ability to repeat that effect based on the amount of copies available, and how you could even recharge it in a single turn with that milled Eagle, giving you at worst another Leo search if the monster is destroyed during your opponent's turn. Yeah, I can see where the "nerf it" comment comes from.
 
Hmm you could change the detach cost from 3 to 2, and prevent effects from activating when detached this way, that way you would have to give up either Leo or 18's effect for the sake of this, and would only get their effects if this card in question is taken down rather than resolving it's effect. Also, leaving 1 material on it that way would prevent Eagle refills, allow you to get something out of this being used as a shield, and it would be able to repeat it's Lightning Vortex effect next turn, which if it keeps the "face-up" part of it's clause, it'll be fine IMO.
 
That's probably all I can think of as of right now.
 
As a quick edit:
The reason I suggested going that route is because if you remove the "stack on top of an Xyz" bit, this is then completely outclassed by Thunder Spark. Also, it still would have some interesting differences to Exciton Knight that might or might not help.

I should also note, since it seems to keep on getting glossed over by readers, but the last part of the effect makes sure that you can't use the blow up effect and the recharge effect in the same turn. Meaning if you nuke the field, even with Eagle, it'll still take 2 turns to use the effect again: 1 to refill, the next to use. Albeit the time after the refill will have the protection and a 2700 ATK beatstick.

Thought I'd mention that before I made changes, in case it changes your suggestion at all.

[Sleepy]

I should also note, since it seems to keep on getting glossed over by readers, but the last part of the effect makes sure that you can't use the blow up effect and the recharge effect in the same turn. Meaning if you nuke the field, even with Eagle, it'll still take 2 turns to use the effect again: 1 to refill, the next to use. Albeit the time after the refill will have the protection and a 2700 ATK beatstick.

Thought I'd mention that before I made changes, in case it changes your suggestion at all.

 

I did read that and actually read the card a few times, but lately I don't know what the deal is with me that I always seem to slip on something I was trying to keep in mind.

 

Though I think I'll maintain my posture regarding that suggestion. If anything, it makes it more balanced, and the chance of going back to 2700 is still good enough and even above average in 2 material Rank 4s (I know it's 3 materials, but since Xyzs it can overay over are 2 material ones, it's more or less the effort it  takes).

 

Of course, my suggestion is not the only possibility, we just haven't thought of enough alternatives yet.

The more I come back to this thread and reply, the more I get the impression there is a huge amount of thought behind it's creation and so it's looking more fun.

[Agro]

I did read that and actually read the card a few times, but lately I don't know what the deal is with me that I always seem to slip on something I was trying to keep in mind.
 
Though I think I'll maintain my posture regarding that suggestion. If anything, it makes it more balanced, and the chance of going back to 2700 is still good enough and even above average in 2 material Rank 4s (I know it's 3 materials, but since Xyzs it can overay over are 2 material ones, it's more or less the effort it  takes).
 
Of course, my suggestion is not the only possibility, we just haven't thought of enough alternatives yet.
The more I come back to this thread and reply, the more I get the impression there is a huge amount of thought behind it's creation and so it's looking more fun.

Haha, last part made me smile. Thanks for that.

But yeah, I guess my main problem with the card at this point is thinking how easy Leo + Amphis = field wipe + double foolish + search. Obvious change would be to add on: "If you activate this effect, effects that activate in the Graveyard cannot be activated for the rest of the turn."

It'd be the simplest and most straightforward way to fix the issue without getting rid of the materials entirely– which was one of the other jokes I had with the card; making it DEVOUR materials to power itself and eliminating them from existence.

Although I'm a little disappointed, I suppose, that doing that makes it interact less with the archetype. On the other hand, it makes the play of going into this guy more indecisive. The original plan with this card was to make the player think "Should I keep my Xyz on the field and keep their lingering effects? Or do I give that up to go into Dark-Matter and try to make a push?" And then again make them think: Do I keep the protection and the beatstick or do I give that up to try to wipe the field and get a possible direct attack in?

[Sleepy]

Though there is also that it's overall use relative to Exiton Knight and Thunders Spark Dragon as field wipes can't drop too much, and due to low stats and lack of synergy with the archetype it could ultimately become the case.

If it's gonna prevent any Heraldic effects taking advantage of it, I'd say it should at least exchange the low stat with boosting effect for a more solid amount like 2400.

 

Though flavor-wise, it'd make sense to have all those drawbacks.

 

Or another alternative that just occurred to me, that you could also banish monsters (not just Heraldic but any monsters) in your Graveyard in a way proportionate to the detach cost. It'd require some setup to use that way, eating away unimportant Xyzs already used, or valuable Heraldics in order to go for others. I'm not sure how effective that'd be, but it wouldn't increase the Graveyard options a huge amount unless played mid/late-Duel or at certain situations.

It's another possibility.

[Agro]

Yeah. I haven't really been considering the possibility of just adding a cost onto it. Although making it require 6 cards to setup sounds rather painful.

What I could do instead is change the effect to:

"Banish any number of monsters in your Graveyard to target the name number of face-up cards on the field, then detach 3 Xyz Materials from this card; destroy the targeted monsters."

[Mugendramon]

Well first of all I apologize for not being lengthy about what I'm about to say.

 

First and foremost the banishing what it detaches completely defeats the point. Why would I make this ever at all if Thunder Spark does the same thing and does not make me lose the really damn valuable grave fodder?

 

Secondly and less importantly... it doesn't actually follow the lore of Heraldics at all. You know, about being part of medieval family crests and what-not. <-This is still true tho

 

It's well-thought and cute and stuff... but still outclassed and has no niche whatsoever.

 

 

It doesn't use its effect at all, it just gets to be a self-recycling powerhouse that carries the same pressure Number 18 puts but better. I have no idea why this didn't win other than the overwhelming lack of flavor.

[Agro]

Well first of all I apologize for not being lengthy about what I'm about to say.
 
First and foremost the banishing what it detaches completely defeats the point. Why would I make this ever at all if Thunder Spark does the same thing and does not make me lose the really damn valuable grave fodder?
 
Secondly and less importantly... it doesn't actually follow the lore of Heraldics at all. You know, about being part of medieval family crests and what-not.
 
It's well-thought and cute and stuff... but still outclassed and has no niche whatsoever.

Second part: totally get. I haven't payed attention to Zexal at all past the first season, really, so I'm not surprised if the lore is completely out-of-whack... although considering this is a fake card, I could fanfic the lore...... yeah...

Anyway, yeah, we were discussing what to do with that destruction effect. I felt getting the double foolish + tiger search off a simple 2-material Xyz summon was a bit too much, so I worked in the banishing effect to try to find some balance- clearly by going to the completely other extreme. If you have any suggestions for that one, I'd be all ears.

[Mugendramon]

refer to previous post for apology

 

Now regarding the flavor bit...

 

It's less about Zexal and more about this stuff.

[Agro]

I'm so confused.

So you're saying it's not mediocre WITH the banishing effect, or that it's not too op WITHOUT it? Or that whatever the changes we were discussing fixit? Or... uh... what.

As for the flavor, of course, do you think I can still work with the image and just change the name to something that sounds right, or should I try to find something different?

[Mugendramon]

Finding an image would obviously be incredibly hard so I suggest just changing the name. Number 18 is an early "stage" of Number 69, this could perhaps be a more advanced one. Something like Herdaldry Emblem of X could do a good job.

 

What I meant when crossing out is that it's a pressure card. Its effects might very well not even be there- all it needs is the summoning requirement to be an effect-immune beater which will then detach the 18 it has under it and mill all the same. Then, Unicorn can revive the 18 and make another of these, to repeat the cycle.

[Agro]

And you don't think the fact that it can do that is too problematic?

...thought it's good there's not much point in having two of these on the field at the same time, really, unless you're making a true final push.

[Darj]

It doesn't use its effect at all, it just gets to be a self-recycling powerhouse that carries the same pressure Number 18 puts but better.

 

I had not realized this, and it changed the way I was looking at the card. I have been following this thread but I couldn't think of anything to suggest/comment until now.

 

As Mugen already pointed out, this card doesn't even need to use its removal effect to be a threat. And to be honest, I think a card like this is bad for the game, or at least I wouldn't consider as fair a card that turns Plain Coat into a 2700-ATK beater with immunity to monster targeting AND has the option of removing face-up cards to remove problem cards or make a push.

 

In my opinion, this card is a dead end it that it there is now way to fix it without changing its effect and/or gimmick entirely; Heraldics don't deserve something like this. You could try it on another archetype whose monsters don't trigger any effects when detached, though.

[Daigusto Sphreez]

Personally, while there are a lot of different and interesting effects going on, I think it deviates from the ideals of Heraldic Xyz monsters, which up to now generally revolve around effect stealing and graveyard stacking, which both complement the deck's theme. Whereas banishing heraldic beast monsters seems pretty counter productive. 

 

I think an issue with it is that it can go over any heraldic xyz, so it is essentially a 2 material monster for what is a great effect.

A card like this would probably work better for another archetype as already said.

[Agro]

You guys... are totally right, lemme make this a Rank 7 Constellar.

 

Changed the name of the card to "Heraldry Emblem of Disownment" for lack of better word choice. It's a work in progress.

 

Took out the banishment clause since I'd rather discuss this card without that restriction than with it.

[Darj]

The thing is that as long as this can be overlayed over Plain Coat, it is going to be problematic, unless it has an effect and/or stats that are at the same power level as Plain Coat's, which would make this card pointless, or perhaps make it insignificantly better, like a mere +200~300 ATK over Plain and without the protection against monster targeting.

 

In other words, remove the protection against targeting and adjust the ATK boost from each attached material so it ends up with 2400~2500 ATK with 3 materials. That way, it would be more of a slightly beefier Plain-Coat that can nuke face-ups on the field in a pinch.