Greiga Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Of course I used the 3 most popular ones as examples, but how does YCM feel about continuous cards that can search in a certain deck, as opposed to one use cards like RotA and Smoke Signal? Remember that (as far as I know) when these specific ones came out, these decks were still in their first forms and weren't dominating much. Are they alright for certain weaker archetypes, or should they not exist, on the off chance that said archetypes become like what we see today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Should not be unlimited, because it leads to ridiculous things like Whirlwind Whirlwind Whirlwind, Sirocco Kalut Kalut Kalut Bora Gale. Though granted it is pretty funny to see sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sage Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Whirlwind had the most impact, but both it and Wind-Up Factory were completely BS in their prime. Hard OPT clause really helped Ticket and subsequently Scrap Factory not being completely ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
%phil Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 they're really bad for the game. rabbit + factory in wind-up was just ridiculous and kept it as a competitive deck for a very long time indeed, whirlwind is crazy as it makes blackwings become gadgets and ticket is like, one of the key cards in madolche. they always create far too much advantage to make them healthy for the game. i wanted a wind-up factory limit well ahead of more or less any other hit to wind-ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 What gets me is how they decided it's okay to move Black Whirlwind up to justify not moving Wind-Up Factory down. I mean, I know BW aren't relevant, but still not a healthy change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Remind me, how can Konami justify having these cards all at 3 at the same time RotA is at 1? Doesn't seem logical really. Not saying RotA should move up, but these cards should all move down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Remind me, how can Konami justify having these cards all at 3 at the same time RotA is at 1? Doesn't seem logical really. Not saying RotA should move up, but these cards should all move down. My hunch: Archetype specific vs Generic type. It's the same reason E-Emergency Call came back to 3 after Stratos left. E-Call is better than RoTA, but RoTA isn't limited to E-HERO, therefore, it's more flexible. Also, it might be because the archetype searchers tend to have some sort of condition attached. Like Whirlwind activates when you Normal Summon a Blackwing, and adds a monster with less ATK than the Summoned monster. Factory requires you to activate a Wind-Up effect, many of which are limited to "once while face-up". The most broken searchers are the ones without any pretense of conditions or restrictions. Like...Gateway of the Six after the Legendary Six Samurai came out and broke it into tiny pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 My hunch: Archetype specific vs Generic type. It's the same reason E-Emergency Call came back to 3 after Stratos left. E-Call is better than RoTA, but RoTA isn't limited to E-HERO, therefore, it's more flexible. Also, it might be because the archetype searchers tend to have some sort of condition attached. Like Whirlwind activates when you Normal Summon a Blackwing, and adds a monster with less ATK than the Summoned monster. Factory requires you to activate a Wind-Up effect, many of which are limited to "once while face-up". The most broken searchers are the ones without any pretense of conditions or restrictions. Like...Gateway of the Six after the Legendary Six Samurai came out and broke it into tiny pieces. Still doesn't make RotA any more limit-worthy than all the other Archetype-specific continuous searchers though. Black Whirlwind made 1 deck top tier and broken whereas RotA has just helped a number of decks (some pretty good ones, I admit) become a bit more consistent. It has never broken anything as such. RotA and other generic searchers also do not generate the advantage that continuous searchers do. The continuous searchers are much worse design and have much worse impact on the game and should all be limited. RotA being @1 is more an illustration to put into perspective how list-worthy these cards are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 "Of course I used the 3 most popular ones as examples" Name the unpopular ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultravires Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 "Of course I used the 3 most popular ones as examples" Name the unpopular ones? Machina Armored Unit. #shot Still doesn't make RotA any more limit-worthy than all the other Archetype-specific continuous searchers though. Black Whirlwind made 1 deck top tier and broken whereas RotA has just helped a number of decks (some pretty good ones, I admit) become a bit more consistent. It has never broken anything as such. RotA and other generic searchers also do not generate the advantage that continuous searchers do. The continuous searchers are much worse design and have much worse impact on the game and should all be limited. RotA being @1 is more an illustration to put into perspective how list-worthy these cards are. A search card is only as good as what it searches. RotA is the best search card in the game, and deserves its spot at 1. It has supported far too many degenerate decks to be at any more than 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Boom there it is. A discussion about continuous searchers NEEDS both sides of the coin. They aren't inherently broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultravires Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Boom there it is. A discussion about continuous searchers NEEDS both sides of the coin. They aren't inherently broken. Exactly. A search card is only as good as what it searches, and right now none of the relevant continuous search cards are broken. Slightly degenerate, sure, broken not really. Black Whirlwind has bad card design written all over it but the deck is irrelevant and easily shut down. Tenki is more of a problem than Black Whirlwind and it's still not the problem. That brings us to another relevant point; search cards are almost never the problem; RotA is the only example of a searcher that does too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhat Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Infestation Infection doesn't grant any net card presence. Machina Armored Unit, Boss Rush and Damage=Reptile are not viable, and Madolche Ticket is not a 3-of, because of player interaction. Both Factories and Whirlwind can be used to set up without any regard to your opponent's field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Spellcasters will never have a RotA because Exodia would be invincible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeriberii Haan Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Verdant Sanctuary needs to be mentioned as a footnote or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Origins Posted June 28, 2014 Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 MST counters these hard. That's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neochu-H Posted June 28, 2014 Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 MST counters these hard. That's why. no MST negates thats why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhat Posted June 28, 2014 Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 Verdant Sanctuary needs to be mentioned as a footnote or something. Also player interaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted June 28, 2014 Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 Spellcasters will never have a RotA because Exodia would be invincible. They already have one in the form of Halls, but that requires alot of effort to use. Still, decent in Decks that can put Spell Counters on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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