[Archetype] Angel Summoners and BMX Guardians

[BtanH]

So I've changed all the effects to say spellcaster "Summoner" or fairy "gaurdian". But I dont want to bother editting it here.

Summoners

Summoner Priest
Level 4 - DARK - Spellcaster/Effect - 1800/1200
When this card is Special Summoned: Add 1 "Guardian" card from your Deck to your hand. If this card is sent to the graveyard for the Synchro Summon of a Spellcaster-Type monster: You can discard 1 card to target 1 Spell Card in your Graveyard; return that target to your hand.

Arcane Summoner
Level 4 - DARK - Spellcaster/Flip/Effect - 1200/2000
FLIP: Add 1 "Guardian" card from your deck to your hand. When this card is Special Summoned: Add 1 “Summoner” card from your deck to your hand, except "Arcane Summoner".
 

Summoner Ascetic

Level 4/DARK/Spellcaster/1600/800

While this card is face-up on the field, it cannot be Tributed. If this card is special summoned in Defense Position: Change this card to Attack Position. Once per turn: You can discard 1 Trap Card; Special Summon 1 level 4 monster from your deck, in face down defense position.

Guardians

Faith Guardian
Level 3 - LIGHT - Fairy/Tuner/Effect - 0/800
This card cannot be used as a Synchro Material Monster, except for the Synchro Summon of a Level 7 or higher Spellcaster Synchro Monster. When this card is Normal Summoned: You can target 1 Level 4 or lower spellcaster monster in your Graveyard; Special Summon that target and negate its effect. If this card is used for the Synchro Summon of a Synchro Monster, that monster gains the following effect:
- Once while this card is face up on the field, if this card would be destroyed by an opponent's card effect: negate the effect, and if you do, destroy that card.

Amity Guardian
Level 3 - LIGHT - Fairy/Tuner/Effect - 0/800
This card cannot be used as a Synchro Material Monster, except for the Synchro Summon of a Level 7 or higher Synchro Monster. If you control a face-up "Summoner" monster, you can Special Summon this card (from your hand). When this card is Special Summoned by its own effect: You can have this card's Level become 4. If this card is used for the Synchro Summon of a Synchro Monster, that monster gains the following effect:
- Once while this card is face up on the field, if a card or effect is activated that targets this card: negate the activation, and if you do, destroy it.

Hope Guardian
Level 3 - LIGHT - Fairy/Tuner/Effect - 0/800
This card cannot be used as a Synchro Material Monster, except for the Synchro Summon of a Level 7 or higher Synchro Monster. When this is normal summoned, you can special summon 1 level 4 or lower spellcaster type monster from your hand. If this card is used for the Synchro Summon of a Synchro Monster, that monster gains the following effect:
- During the end phase of the turn this card was summoned, add 1 banished Guardian or Summoner card to your hand.


EXTRA DECK

Guardian of Echoing Truth
Level 7 - LIGHT - Fairy/Synchro/Effect - 2400/2400
1 Tuner monster + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
Once per turn: You can banish up to 2 Summoner or Guardian Spell or Trap cards from your graveyard and target cards on the field up to the number of banished cards. During this turn, those cards, as well as effects from those cards, cannot be activated. If this card is banished: You can add 1 LIGHT Fairy-type monster from your graveyard to your hand.

 

Summoner of Eternal Shade
Level 7 - DARK - Spellcaster/Synchro/Effect - 2600/2100
1 LIGHT Tuner monster + 1 or more DARK non-Tuner monsters
Once per turn: You can banish 1 LIGHT or DARK monster in your Graveyard, target 1 card your opponent controls; send it to the Graveyard. If this card is banished: You can Special Summon 1 DARK Spellcaster-Type monster from your Graveyard.

Sovereign Guardian of Divinity
Level 10 - LIGHT - Fairy/Fusion/Effect - 3600/2800
1 Fairy-Type Synchro Monster + 1 Fairy-Type monster
Once per turn: You can discard 1 monster from your hand; banish 1 monster in your Graveyard, then you can Special Summon 1 monster from your banished cards. Monsters you control cannot attack the turn this effect is activated, except for LIGHT monsters. Once per turn: you can gain 2000 LP. During a turn this effect is activated, you cannot Special Summon monsters, except for LIGHT monsters.


SPELLS/TRAPS
Pact Between Summoner and Guardian
Normal Spell
Discard 1 "Summoner" or "Guardian" monster; add 1 "Summoner" or "Guardian" monster of the type you did not discard to your hand, also draw 1 card. You can only activate 1 "Pact Between Summoner and Guardian" per turn.

Summoner’s Trick
Quick-Play Spell
Activate only if you control a face-up "Summoner" monster. Immediately after this card resolves, treat all monsters you control as having been Special Summoned, then if you Special Summoned 2 or more monsters this way, draw 1 card.

Guardian's Call
Normal Spell
Activate only if you control a face-up "Guardian" monster. Special Summon 1 "Summoner" monster from your hand, and if you do, up to 1 "Guardian" and 1 "Summoner" monster you control cannot be destroyed by card effects until the end of this turn.

Summoner Guardian Onslaught
Continuous Spell
Once per turn, if you control no monsters: You can Special Summon 1 "Summoner" or "Guardian" monster from your hand. During the End Phase, if you Special Summoned 2 or more "Summoner" and/or "Guardian" monsters this turn: Draw 1 card.

Summoner’s Spite
Normal Trap
Banish one Summoner from your graveyard, then target 1 monster your opponent controls; place that target on the top or bottom of the Deck.

Guardian’s Detainment
Normal Trap
Send 1 "Guardian" monster in your hand or that you control to the Graveyard to target up to 2 face-up monsters your opponent controls; negate their effect(s), also they cannot attack. Until the end of this turn, your opponent cannot activate cards and effects with those name(s) or use monsters with those name(s) as Synchro or Xyz Materials.

[BtanH]

Gonna bump this. Some people in the tournament seemed to think it was a little bit too strong.

[Love of Ghibli]

I started this then I didn't finish because I had made the assumption that the judges would have done that for you before the tournament started. 

Having said that. Yes your cards have breached the line of balanced and not in a good way. But I shall do my best to highlight the wrongness in the set.

First, the cards are given generic names and thus support way more than they should. By being able to search "Summoner" and "Guardian" monsters you not only give support to cards like Summoner Monk and the Equip based archetype known as "Guardians" you end up supporting existing DP archetypes that happen to have "Guardian" or "Summoner" in their names. In turn you are supporting some archetypes that are already overpowered. 

Second, the general thought of giving synchros extra effects is inherently wrong. Especially, when you make it so that these new effects are all about making the monster live longer. Synchro's (especially level 7+) tend to be boss monsters and their presence alone is supposed to effect the game state. If you give them extra effects then you are prolonging the game state in your favor. Which is simply bad design especially in the case where you can do the same thing over and over. 

The Synchros by default are some levels of okay:

Echoing Truth: Immortality for a turn is simply stalling its not healthy. In addition to that it floats...so nerfing I would get it somewhere that the monster gives something that is not blanket immortality. Maybe simply not targeting by effects.

Eternal Shade: Its form of removal that only part that it is safe from is that it targets. In addition to that it floats...It would be nice if it didn't float.

 

Divinity: Despite its steep summoning cost it still does too much. It +1's once per turn, you gain 1/4th of your life once per turn and it is 3.4k body. Its excessive. 

This is all before we get to S/T support too.

[Cirrus]

Okay I'm a little confused about the argument above. The archetype is very good but -certainly- not in the ways described above ...

 

Tuners (or other monsters!) giving their Synchro Monsters effects is nothing new. See: Trust Guardian and the Yang Zing monsters. I'm curious as to what "Summoner" and "Guardian" cards are arbitrarily strong, especially as the cards seem to be designed to synergize with each other and not be particularly speedy in the process... The entire Guardian lineup is uniformly terrible, and the only notable Summoner is Summoner Monk (and Arsenal Summoner, to a certain degree). In fact, Arsenal Summoner already exists and searches any "Guardian" card!?? I would think that the presence or lack thereof of a restricting clause isn't particularly relevant, as archetype monsters would be searched the majority of the time anyway.

 

About the survival of Synchro Monsters. I'm pretty sure the Yang Zing cards make their Synchros significantly harder to kill than any single Guardian does. And it'd be hard to convince me that Yang Zing is somehow overwhelming. Doesn't this deck rely on Call of the Haunted to make big plays anyway? That and Faith Guardian but it's mostly Call of the Haunted.

 

Echoing Truth: I thought this card was mildly mediocre. The proposed nerf would just make this card not see any play whatsoever. Note the lack of inherent synergy; you have to have a good reason to make this card (not dying is a pretty good reason). Also, how does this card float? If by float you mean "can generate advantage based on possible future play", that's not floating.

 

Eternal Shade: How does this card float? See above comment. The removal is very good in this case, but ...

 

Divinity: Wait, how does this +1? If by +1 you mean the combo with the other Guardian, sure I guess it does, but it's not an inherent quality and archetype bosses are supposed to +1 every turn anyway. Doesn't do that by itself or do it every turn. Did this even get played in any game?

 

??? I'm really confused. This archetype's strengths are in its S/T lineup and also a couple Summoners (I think Arcane is a powerhouse).

[Love of Ghibli]

Okay I'm a little confused about the argument above. The archetype is very good but -certainly- not in the ways described above ...

 

Tuners (or other monsters!) giving their Synchro Monsters effects is nothing new. See: Trust Guardian and the Yang Zing monsters. I'm curious as to what "Summoner" and "Guardian" cards are arbitrarily strong, especially as the cards seem to be designed to synergize with each other and not be particularly speedy in the process... The entire Guardian lineup is uniformly terrible, and the only notable Summoner is Summoner Monk (and Arsenal Summoner, to a certain degree). In fact, Arsenal Summoner already exists and searches any "Guardian" card!?? I would think that the presence or lack thereof of a restricting clause isn't particularly relevant, as archetype monsters would be searched the majority of the time anyway.  Mirage Guardians are cards on Duel Portal.

 

About the survival of Synchro Monsters. I'm pretty sure the Yang Zing cards make their Synchros significantly harder to kill than any single Guardian does. And it'd be hard to convince me that Yang Zing is somehow overwhelming. Doesn't this deck rely on Call of the Haunted to make big plays anyway? That and Faith Guardian but it's mostly Call of the Haunted. 

 

Echoing Truth: I thought this card was mildly mediocre. The proposed nerf would just make this card not see any play whatsoever. Note the lack of inherent synergy; you have to have a good reason to make this card (not dying is a pretty good reason). Also, how does this card float? If by float you mean "can generate advantage based on possible future play", that's not floating.

 

Eternal Shade: How does this card float? See above comment. The removal is very good in this case, but ...

 

Divinity: Wait, how does this +1? If by +1 you mean the combo with the other Guardian, sure I guess it does, but it's not an inherent quality and archetype bosses are supposed to +1 every turn anyway. Doesn't do that by itself or do it every turn. Did this even get played in any game?

 

??? I'm really confused. This archetype's strengths are in its S/T lineup and also a couple Summoners (I think Arcane is a powerhouse).

In terms of Yang Zing giving protection, I don't think that is good practice either...but the tick with Yang Zing is that there levels vary and one must actually have to do work and some form of set-up to make a valid synchro. Therefore thanks to the amount of resources you used to make that 1 Yang Zing synchro one could argue that it deserves to live and be immune to some things. That is not prevalent here. A 3 +4= 7 play is very is to make and therefore you are not making a true commitment to make any level 7 or 8 synchro.

Echoing Truth: Its a stall tactic on its face that just inherently bad in my opinion. If you're that behind the 8 ball then you're prolonging the game. Second I define floating as a monster that can replace itself in someway upon leaving the field. This card and Shade both have effects that summon monsters when they are banished or sent to the graveyard by a card effect.

Divinity: I'll admit I misread the part that the first cost is actually discarding a card meaning it doesn't plus. 


 

[Cirrus]

Shade is upon banish only. Truth is upon card effect or banish, sure. But the thing is you have to work for both of the pluses, and you don't necessarily even have valid targets. This is not how floaters operate.

 

What you're ignoring in the 3+4=7 case versus Yang Zing is that they're completely different. Why? Because Yang Zing monsters all float, and you will have a couple of them just hanging around when you want to Synchro. These don't do that, and instead rely on being actively protected for you to actually establish a presence. Additionally, aside from Faith Guardian (which is a one-card Synchro but that is largely fine, uses NS), the deck has to actually trade 2 cards to make a Synchro. Amity Guardian? That's a definite commitment. Hope Guardian? For sure. The decks are completely different in their tempos and how they operate. Plus, we have dorks like Star Drawing and Star Seraph friends who randomly plus off making an Xyz, and they are arguably much better than these dorky level 3 Tuners that actually cost a card to make a card (and give a protection effect that can be worth a card sometimes).

[BtanH]

Basically the problem I see with the deck is that Eternal Shade is really really good. And it should be toned down. Other than that the deck isn't really that great.

[VampireofDarkness]

Basically the problem I see with the deck is that Eternal Shade is really really good. And it should be toned down. Other than that the deck isn't really that great.

Truth also needs a lower DEF. I'll look at the rest and give feedback as I go, but I notice that first thing. 3300 on a Level 7 Synchro is a bit much

[BtanH]

Personal thoughts for fixes
1. Faith Guardian can now target any level 4 (or lower?) spellcaster in graveyard, but now negates the effect of the summoned card.
2. Complete rework of Hope.
3. Guardian of Echoing Truth now has 2800 Defense
4. Eternal Shade now can only target monsters if you banish Dark, and only target spells if you banish Light.
5. Arcane Summoner can be used for the synchro of any kind of monster.

[Darj]

I'm still not comfortable with the archetype.

1. As Lovely Day already pointed out, being able to support "Summoner" and "Guardian" cards give them too much flexibility, and can end up supporting other cards or decks they wren't intended to. For instance, in DP we have the "Mirage Guardians". And while the main searchers are slow because they are Flip effects and/or need to be Special Summoned, or simply splashing them in other archetypes may sound impractical at first, the potential of abuse is still there.

 

2. They have this Altair-Deneb loop with Faith Guardian --> Angel Summoner. But while Altair-Deneb grant access to the Rank4 pool at the cost of attacking for the turn (except when they can make a tellar Xyz but that requires 3 materials and thus more setup), Faith-Summoner grant access to the Synchro7 pool, which on average have a higher ATK than Rank4s and equally good effects, AND further strengthen said monster with their Yang Zing-ish effects. Sure, the Synchro7 pool is smaller than the Rank4, and the gap is even broader in DP with the generic Rank4s we have introduced, but the former pool is still effective and has potent tools, such as Clear Wing, the Rose Dragons and Yazi, plus Arcanite Magician and their archetype Shade Summoner.

 

For #1, the solution should be simple: more specific names for the archetype Summoner and the Guardians so they can only support themselves.

For #2, it may be acceptable depending on the power level we settle for DP; but personally, I am not a fan of this loop, and I don't want stuff like this in DP. As pointed out in the DP Metagame thread, making 1 ED monster per turn is fine when the end product is a beater like Feral Imp or Gigant X, or otherwise a not-so-threatening monster; but these are on a different level since they perform the search before dropping the ED monster, and thus can freely access the Synchro7 pool, and most Synchro7s are certainly threatening.

But if a fix is eventually needed, then negating the effect of the monster Summoned by Faith Guardian should do the trick.

[Cirrus]

The loop doesn't exist with the new update to the archetype, Voltex. Faith Guardian now negates monsters it summons. In fact it's in the post directly above yours. Although, it's not entirely your fault since the first post isn't updated (and for a good reason; BtanH just finished his tournament matches yesterday).

 

(An aside: I am the original designer of Faith Guardian; it was designed to target any Level 4 Spellcaster, SS in Defense, and negate the target's effects. It is well understood that the current version is too strong, as BtanH wanted to [ab]use it with Priest and Arcane.)

 

The "problem" you pointed out about supporting random archetypes is ... well, I'm really not sure what the problem is. By this logic, why were the Archfiend cards made at all (I'm talking about Trick / Cavalry / Labyrinth / et al)? We all know that Archfiend is a huge, huge archetype with random members across the history of this game. As long as the support is not very good or outright terrible for the other decks (and it honestly is), this should not be an excuse to forbid it. Why would Mirage Guardians play these cards? Of course, it's entirely possible to just make an archetype-specific Summoner Monk and Arsenal Summoner and Trust Guardian, but the problem, the fix, and the gain are all minor at best. I understand that the concern was brought up with Dark Counterparts as well and rectified there, but I don't feel that this is nearly as significant (a keyword like "Light" or "Warrior" or something of the sort would be a much, much bigger concern).

[Darj]

Ah, my mistake. I overlooked some of the fixes in the previous post.

 

Well, you sure know how Heiress was used to search for "Infernity Archfiend" at one point, right? If that was intended or not, I don't know, but silly interactions like that may emerge involving these Guardians-Summoners.

Besides, those Archfiend cards were made to consolidate "Archfiends" as an archetype; before them there wasn't any support tying them together. But turning "Guardians" and "Summoner" into archetypes... don't you think it could end up as a mess with all their unrelated members and the "cross-support"? Well, perhaps a "Summoner" archetype could get away with it because there aren't as many Summoners, but still.

 

At the same time, these appear to be designed after Arsenal Summoner while taking advantage of Summoner Monk, which doesn't feel like a healthy concept. I mean, Monk is semi-Limited for a reason and now it gets an archetype supporting it; Arsenal Summoner is not that good, I agree with that, but it's the example of keyword support, so to speak, gone wrong (clearly it was meant to support only the Equip Guardians), and these Guardian-Summoners not only adopt that keyword flaw, but take it to the next level.

[Cirrus]

Okay all the random Guardian cards are really bad in the TCG though, with the exception of maybe Dreadscythe and Eatos but they're still pretty bad. Arsenal Summoner isn't only not that good, it was total trash. However, it was used to hilarious effect (by some scrubs aka BtanH and I) to search Trust Guardian, culminating in a surprisingly effective deck. The archetype expands that aspect of Arsenal Summoner, making the deck not literally Hitler in terms of slowness and effectiveness.

 

Archfiends are still not an archetype, though. There's nothing that insinuates cards like Shadowknight Archfiend, Thought Ruler Archfiend, and Nefarious Archfiend of Nefariousness should go into the same deck; the couple of cards released were helpful in making a home for cards like Trance Archfiend and Skull Archfiend of Lightning (questionably), but are for the most part their own engine while being mildly useful in a very niche way. I'd assume that Infernities ran Heiress to take advantage of the Tour Guide -> Heiress play especially since Necromancer is also a valid TGU target; I am fine with a search into Archfiend, as it's not like Infernities don't have a million ways to do that already.

 

Summoner Monk is one of those cards that was semi-limited because it could pull out cards like Snipe Hunter and Rescue Cat. Since then, Konami's basically just forgotten about it. It's a remarkably balanced design in this day and age because it requires a Normal Summon, requires a good volume of Spell Cards, and costs something to activate so a Fiendish Chain or some such will trade a little better than even tempo-wise. I'm not sure what the problem with searching this card is, especially since I think BtanH searched for it only once during all ten matches. Its superior usage lies in it being a Graveyard resource and DARK attribute, which are both relevant enough to warrant its inclusion (in addition to the small burst of speed it provides upon seeing play). It's certainly not a card that would be a problem coming off the banlist, imo.

[Darj]

You say Arsenal Summoner "was trash" and yet it "culminated in an effective deck" along Trust Guardian. Doesn't this prove how support on generic keywords, so to speak, can bring unexpected interactions with potentially unfair results?

The TCG "Guardian" and "Summoner" cards may be bad or average at best, but still, making indirect support them doesn't feel like good design. By doing so, the cards are basically waiting to be abused, as Arsenal Summoner demonstrates with its interaction with Trust Guardian, and even "Koa'ki Meiru Guardian" back when the game was much slower (around 2009 I think). Sure, Arsenal --> Trust/Koa'ki Meiru is certainly not a game-breaking play, but who knows if an abusive interaction won't show up eventually. What if Konami suddenly makes an amazing "Guardian" card, or a strong archetype that relies on a "Guardian" card and it just so happens to be searchable by Arsenal Summoner?

And yes, I know I'm on theory territory and that pretty much all cards are prone to becoming broken with the right hyphotetical support or interactions, but "Guardian" and "Summoner" support are arguably more vulnerable because of their flexibility; no matter how you look at it, supporting generic "Guardian"/"Summoner" cards is a loose end.

Also, in a way it restricts design as well, as now we can't make "Guardian" or "Summoner" cards without them getting support from about half an archetype (as if "Arsenal Summoner" wasn't enough).

 

Technically Archfiends became an archetype after Heiress, Cavalry, etc.: they already were a group of cards that contain a common term (the name of the archetype) appearing in the card names; and with the aforementioned cards, they got support cards related to the archetype.

In that sense, "Guardians" are already an archetype because of "Arsenal Summoner", but further supporting this "unofficial" archetype doesn't look like a good thing to do.

If I remember correctly, Infernities mostly used Heiress along Foolish Burial to search for Infernity Archfiend and set off their loop faster. And I believe they didn't have a "million ways" to search Archfiend so, in a way, Heiress was effectively abused by Infernities, a deck that was already degenerate and arguably didn't deserve the support.

Granted, Heiress in Infernities wasn't that of a big deal since they only ran 1 copy as a tech for Foolish, but it should be enough to prove how generic keyword support can be dangerous.

[VampireofDarkness]

You say Arsenal Summoner "was trash" and yet it "culminated in an effective deck" along Trust Guardian. Doesn't this prove how support on generic keywords, so to speak, can bring unexpected interactions with potentially unfair results?
The TCG "Guardian" and "Summoner" cards may be bad or average at best, but still, making indirect support them doesn't feel like good design. By doing so, the cards are basically waiting to be abused, as Arsenal Summoner demonstrates with its interaction with Trust Guardian, and even "Koa'ki Meiru Guardian" back when the game was much slower (around 2009 I think). Sure, Arsenal --> Trust/Koa'ki Meiru is certainly not a game-breaking play, but who knows if an abusive interaction won't show up eventually. What if Konami suddenly makes an amazing "Guardian" card, or a strong archetype that relies on a "Guardian" card and it just so happens to be searchable by Arsenal Summoner?
And yes, I know I'm on theory territory and that pretty much all cards are prone to becoming broken with the right hyphotetical support or interactions, but "Guardian" and "Summoner" support are arguably more vulnerable because of their flexibility; no matter how you look at it, supporting generic "Guardian"/"Summoner" cards is a loose end.
Also, in a way it restricts design as well, as now we can't make "Guardian" or "Summoner" cards without them getting support from about half an archetype (as if "Arsenal Summoner" wasn't enough).

Technically Archfiends became an archetype after Heiress, Cavalry, etc.: they already were a group of cards that contain a common term (the name of the archetype) appearing in the card names; and with the aforementioned cards, they got support cards related to the archetype.
In that sense, "Guardians" are already an archetype because of "Arsenal Summoner", but further supporting this "unofficial" archetype doesn't look like a good thing to do.
If I remember correctly, Infernities mostly used Heiress along Foolish Burial to search for Infernity Archfiend and set off their loop faster. And I believe they didn't have a "million ways" to search Archfiend so, in a way, Heiress was effectively abused by Infernities, a deck that was already degenerate and arguably didn't deserve the support.
Granted, Heiress in Infernities wasn't that of a big deal since they only ran 1 copy as a tech for Foolish, but it should be enough to prove how generic keyword support can be dangerous.

I think one thing that should also be mentioned is translations, which cause other problems. Arsenal Summoner is the PERFECT example of this, along with the Archfiends

[Spoiler Rant on Archfiends and Naming]
First off, the facts aren't exactly straight on Archfiends. A long time ago, when Konami made bad archetypal failures in attempt to get something to work, a Deck called Archfiends arose, and ran based on cards such as Pandemonium and Archfiend's Roar, and had die roll effects if they were targeted. The catch was you HAD (As in not optional) to pay a certain amount of LP each Standby Phase (And such was a huge inspiration of Dread Angels). While technically the new cards were designed to benefit off of Pandemonium and work with the older cards, the older cards were just too outdated to keep up with the times, and thus were dropped. The fact that Infernity Archfiend was searchable wasn't the fault of Archfiends, Archfiend's Roar was already being considered in the Deck. If what you were saying is true, then you basically are saying Archfiends should have been left behind in the dust to never return, and for that I find to be very unfair in labeling. Infernity Archfiend was a mess of a card, and it just so happened to be a player of Heiress being the card it is.
[/spoiler]

On topic with this archetype, Arsenal Summoner already had a ton of problems because of such translations such as "Elf Warrior" becoming "Celtic Guardian", and even other cards with "Guardian" thrown around here and there. Troll Decks were running it with Gate Guardian, and on the card itself, look at it. See how many exceptions there had to be due to translations on its own? That's part of the problem here. While I don't necessarily blame this, and I found it to be hilariously clever when I first saw this thread, I think little has to be said about what can arise. As much as this was absolutely genius, I kinda agree that at this point something needs to be fixed. Last thing I'll note tho is Monk is Semi Limited mostly because of Heroes and Harpies, that's about it. May I remind you how Summonwr Monk is a +3 is the latter?

[Cirrus]

You say Arsenal Summoner "was trash" and yet it "culminated in an effective deck" along Trust Guardian. Doesn't this prove how support on generic keywords, so to speak, can bring unexpected interactions with potentially unfair results?

What? The deck was a completely unintentional discovery and tier 3 at best. It culminated in an effective deck because we made it work, not because Arsenal Summoner was particularly invaluable (the rest of the deck usually put in just as much if not more work). The fact that the deck worked was not because of Arsenal Summoner, and not because the interaction was OP, but because Arcanite Magician was a card that excelled at breaking open stalls in the format it was first conceived in (which was pretty slow and cards like Seven Tools saw play). The rest of the argument isn't particularly relevant as your paragraphs say it "could be" dangerous but don't actually come up with any concrete examples of it being actually dangerous and or overwhelming at any point

 

Regarding Tricky's point: This is definitely a much more valid concern. The translations thing is why I always come up with OCG names for my archetypes. I understand the idiosyncrasies that come with TCG names, and it's more of a problem with Konami's inconsistent translations team during the early part of the game - it is important note that they are much better about this now. To be entirely honest, the archetype can easily be fixed (and made stronger!) by calling out, say, Level 4 DARK Spellcaster monsters and Level 3 LIGHT Fairy monsters; and then giving everything that cares about banishing a universal name. This change -could- happen and the deck would be able to adopt fine, and if BtanH is okay with it, then it can be made the case. But I am not at all convinced with the arguments in this thread about how it's bad design - certainly it's unconventional design but I'm not seeing where it's particularly good or OP, or could even be in the future. If the change goes through, then I might come back to the name1/name2 duality at some point in the future, as I think it is a very interesting and healthy mechanic.

 

The fact that Summoner Monk facilitates a +3 is not Summoner Monk's fault. Other cards such as Snipe Hunter would do the same. You cannot blame Summoner Monk's design when it is Hysteric Sign that makes the +3 happen (not that Harpies is particularly relevant). HERO decks don't get much, if any, use out of Summoner Monk except for Stratos, which is, as we all know, banned. Please look up some history on when Summoner Monk was Semi-Limited, then Limited, then sent back to Semi-Limited, and what decks it was used in to cause this. There would be no significant changes between 2 Summoner Monk and 3 Summoner Monk except to facilitate the existence of perhaps Summoner Monk combo decks with slightly lower monster counts, but nothing that can't already be done.

[Darj]

You say Arsenal Summoner "was trash" and yet it "culminated in an effective deck" along Trust Guardian. Doesn't this prove how support on generic keywords, so to speak, can bring unexpected interactions with potentially unfair results?

 

Hence the "potential" in my statement. I didn't claim Arsenal --> Trust was OPed, and even pointed out later on that it wasn't; my point was that keyword support in general could end up unfair, like Heiress --> Infernity Archfiend.

 

I acknowledged I was in "theory territory" and didn't mention any concrete examples on abuse of "Guardian" support because there isn't any, given the slowness of "Arsenal Summoner". But I did bring the example of "Archfiend Heiress", a case of a card supporting a rather generic keyword that arguably went wrong. I also brought the point of them restricting card design/creation because now any "Guardian" and "Summoner" card gets support from this archetype; plus their impact is stronger in DP where players now can't (or shouldn't) include "Guardian" or "Summoner" in the name of their cards without taking this archetype into consideration; otherwise they could open a can of worms.

For instance, taking Mirage Guardians again, perhaps the monsters here wouldn't be consistent with them, but they surely could make use of their Spell/Trap lineup: Pact looks useful for deck thinning and setting a target for Ethereal Knight, and could use Guardian's Detainment as an archetype "Fiendish Chain". Heck, they could even tech Arcane Summoner to search not only most of their monsters, but also those 2 cards as well; as a Flip it may be slow, but should still be effective.

 

Really, would you rather wait for this archetype to be abused in DP than restrict their support range preemptively?

I understand how it makes them interesting, creative, etc. but healthy? still not sure of that.

[Cirrus]

You cannot use Pact in Mirage Guardians, as it requires both a Summoner and a Guardian. It must search the one that wasn't discarded. Guardian's Detainment would definitely be a good card, but Arcane Summoner doesn't actually do nearly as many things as you say and is likely actually really bad in Mirage Guardians. While Detainment offers something unique and could be remedied by making it call out LIGHT Fairy-Type "Guardian" as well, the other two cards aren't a problem. Some cards could use the slightly narrower restriction, but other cards - especially the durdly ones (and yes, Arcane Summoner is definitely durdly because it's just a FLIP: search guy here without anything to abuse it) - don't particularly need it.

 

Probably adding clauses to call out Spellcaster-Type "Summoner" or Fairy-Type "Guardian" would help in making sure most of the archetypes that could abuse some of the actually good cards - ... which are only Detainment and Spite, as far as I can tell - are unable to. After those slight changes, I'd be impressed if someone abused these cards without going out of their way to do so.

 

... Summoner Guardian Onslaught would actually be the most overpowered example, here, and I'm surprised you didn't mention it with Mirage Guardians. That card can be summarily removed, as I'm pretty sure BtanH didn't play it and it doesn't fit with the current design blueprint anyway.

[Darj]

I didn't mention Onslaught because I figured summoning 2+ Mirage Guardians in the same turn for the card draw could be impractical as they aren't as spammy if I remember correctly, but in retrospect, summoning a beater from the hand is not small feat either.

 

I thought the "type" in Pact's card text referred to monster types, and Mirage Guardians have 1 Dragon while the rest are Wyrms. But in that case, then yeah, it shouldn't work well; Arcane Summoner could be a possible tech to make Pact live, but then you would only turn into a complicated combo (use X to enable Y, etc.)

 

I wouldn't call Arcane Guardian "durdly". Again, it's slow but still effective, as much as GK Spy, which is not a bad card. If it resolves, then you get to search for an archetype card, or perhaps a splashed Guardian Spell/Trap; if it survives the opponent's turn, even better. Plus it has that Summoner searching effect that may work a bit too well along teched Summoner Monks (of course, if Summoner Monk serves a purpose in the deck, not teching it just for the sake of Arcane).

[Cirrus]

Durdly doesn't mean bad. I used it in this context to mean slow and slightly unreliable. Arcane Summoner and GK Spy are both very good cards.

 

The intent, of course, is to make splashing archetypal Spell/Traps undesirable. I am fairly confident that Arcane Summoner itself is not good enough to warrant inclusion unless an archetype doesn't have a better searcher, but this is DP we're talking about here.

[BtanH]

I'm happy to change everything to Spellcaster Summoners and Fairy Guardians.

[Darj]

Durdly doesn't mean bad. I used it in this context to mean slow and slightly unreliable. Arcane Summoner and GK Spy are both very good cards.

 

The intent, of course, is to make splashing archetypal Spell/Traps undesirable. I am fairly confident that Arcane Summoner itself is not good enough to warrant inclusion unless an archetype doesn't have a better searcher, but this is DP we're talking about here.

 

Ah, didn't know what that word exactly mean.

And Point taken; DP decks usually have better cards to run than a Flip searcher.

[BtanH]

Edited the body.

[BtanH]

Updated these cards. They're cooler now.