Konami why [Judgement of the Lightsworn]

[Hunduel]

...are you kidding me? LS were designed that way before the Graveyard became the hand. That mill was supposed to have been a negative thing. I say supposed, but Konmoney f***ed that up right from the start by rewarding the mill with JD and to a lesser degree Wulf. LS were originally just a powerful hodgepodge of better versions, or just flat out copies of OTHER card's effects. I mean, look at some of the OG LS:

Ryko: Man-Eater Bug/Trap Master combo
Lyla: Better Breaker the Magical Warrior
Ehren: Better Any Defence Breaker Ever

Jain: Better version of Steamroid/Any other ATK gainer that LOSES ATK when attacked, unlike Jain

Lumina: Zombie Master

Judgement Dragon: Chaos Emperor Dragon Lite (or better DAD)

Solar Recharge: Better Allure of Darkness

Charge of the Light Brigade: RotA

 

And even now, they're STILL copying effects:

 

Raiden: Better Card Trooper

Minerva (Saint): Dante

 

You have to be up your own arse to fail to recognize what the LS were in the first place. A cash cow Konmoney has milked people for over nearly a decade. They play all those bosses because LS has ceased to be an archetype altogether and are now, even in their own deck, just an engine. I also understand those other bosses, but the one that's most prominent (and problematic) is JD himself, hence the focus. And don't even try to bullshit me here. Irregardless of how well the deck is acting, JD is NOWHERE NEAR healthy for the game.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

1. There are Lightsworn decks without J.D. since the beginning. Actually, Lightsworn is one of the few decks that are open archetype, which means that they are a splashable engine to almost any deck.

2. Graveyard as a punishment? Are you kidding me? Judgment of Light was released AFTER Phantom Darkness which introduced Dark Armed Dragon and a complete deck built around it. That deck utilized Graveyard so well that in most case *drawing* a card was a bigger punishment than *milling* it. Also, there were a few other decks utilizing the Graveyard as a resource, just think about Destiny Heroes or Zombies.

3. The whole "LS are just a group containing already existing cards" should be told by any other archetypes. That is what an archetype is: a collection of card clichés (searcher, destroyer, attacker), each deck has its own without an exception.

 

Don't try to be an "I'll tell you" man when even the blind sees that you're a new player, or at least you didn't play during the time when Lightsworns were actually released. It's okay to have your opinion about them but please, don't make nonsense statements about the archetype that are either wrong or could be told by each decks today.

[The Warden]

Congrats Giga, cause you can clearly call people out about ignrence can't you? I mean, it's not as if I didn't already say those cards screwed up the idea of the mill not being a drawback, oh wait...

 

...are you kidding me? LS were designed that way before the Graveyard became the hand. That mill was supposed to have been a negative thing. I say supposed, but Konmoney fucked that up right from the start by rewarding the mill with JD and to a lesser degree Wulf. 

 

 

Yes I did, didn't I? Huh, it's almost as if I said understand the basic fundamentals of the game, don't I? Cause, clearly you don't. Call of the Haunted? MR? If I recall correctly, the two were Limited back when LS first came out, though, I think MR might have actually been banned by then, Iunno. What I do know, however, is that the mill was an intended downside. Konmoney just decided to ignore that concept by rewarding them for the mill instead; despite the fact that the mill was intended to be the cost for having such powerful effects, as they outclassed many other cards in terms of utility, or availability at that time.

 

@ Ferenc: I'll give you points 2 and 3, as 3 was just a nitpick on my part. Granted, you can't say much to LS as they didn't abuse their Graveyard as much until ChaosSworn, which was much further down the line. PureSworn was the most common (as in, only) build during their conception. But don't even try to goad me with point 1. JD is and always will be the most prominent part of LS, and no LS deck will ever be as powerful as they are without it. But, you know what, if they want to play the deck without JD, then good on them completely. But don't try to even think about saying JD is not played as much since we just had to suffer through RulerSworn, the deck whose entire purpose in life was to search and ram JD down your opponent's throat.

[Hunduel]

@ Ferenc: I'll give you points 2 and 3, as 3 was just a nitpick on my part. But don't even try to goad me with point 1. JD is and always will be the most prominent part of LS, and no LS deck will ever be as powerful as they are without it. But, you know what, if they want to play the deck without JD, then good on them completely. But don't try to even think about saying JD is not played as much we just had to suffer through RulerSworn, the deck whose entire purpose in life was to search and ram JD down your opponent's throat.

 

Oh I didn't said that Judgment Dragon is NOT a fundamental part of Lightsworns. In fact, if a player doesn't use JD in a pure Lightsworn deck (or even in some mixed decks), then that player is a complete idiot. However, if Lightsworn is used solely as an engine (like how Chaos Dragons used Lyla, Charge, and maybe 1-2 Ryko), then JD is not recommended. 

 

You could say the following:

 

If it is a Lightsworn deck, pure or with additional engine = JD is required

If it is a deck with Lightsworn engine = JD is may or may not be required, depending on the numbers. Zombiesworn, Twilight, Wightsworns, VayuSworn, Plantsworn, and so on. While they have "sworn" in their name, technically they aren't even Lightsworn decks.

[The Warden]

Yes, that is quite true. However, I haven't quite explained my point in regards to Phantom of Darkness vs Lightsworn. In the case of the DARK stuff, that's controlled mill. You have more control over what you mill, due to the likes of Armageddon Knight and the TCG exclusive (I think) Dark Grepher. Those two let you decide what to hit, and what not to. This is a stark contrast to LS, whose mill is wild and uncontrolled. You don't decide what gets milled without manipulating the top cards of your deck. That's what was meant to be the negative aspect of the archetype. It's not so much the mill itself, but that every time they did mill in the End Phase, you risked losing cards that could have been useful to you. That's why it was supposed to have been perceived as a negative. But because Wulf rewarded you milling him, and JD just rewarding the mill in general, they veil the fact it was originally supposed to be negative.

 

However, what you're not accounting into the factor is players. Unskilled/casual/scrubs outnumber more skilful players 10 to 1, so they are your most common opponent in an online/casual setting. And because of their inexperience/scrubbishness, they will ratchet JD into any deck that runs at least 4 LS, because, it's not the fact that they won't draw it, it's the fact that they will inevitably topdeck JD and sack a win. That's all they care about, and what i base my thought processes on. While it's all fine and good to account for skilled players in a competitive or tournament setting, it's by far more prudent to account for the scrubs you meet every day. And they, of course, will force JD into anything with at least 4 LS. Which is why practically any ShadollSworn deck I've faced had JD shoved in there. Does that make sense at all in terms of my argument?

[Hunduel]

Yes, that is quite true. However, I haven't quite explained my point in regards to Phantom of Darkness vs Lightsworn. In the case of the DARK stuff, that's controlled mill. You have more control over what you mill, due to the likes of Armageddon Knight and the TCG exclusive (I think) Dark Grepher. Those two let you decide what to hit, and what not to. This is a stark contrast to LS, whose mill is wild and uncontrolled. You don't decide what gets milled without manipulating the top cards of your deck. That's what was meant to be the negative aspect of the archetype. It's not so much the mill itself, but that every time they did mill in the End Phase, you risked losing cards that could have been useful to you. That's why it was supposed to have been perceived as a negative. But because Wulf rewarded you milling him, and JD just rewarding the mill in general, they veil the fact it was originally supposed to be negative.

 

However, what you're not accounting into the factor is players. Unskilled/casual/scrubs outnumber more skilful players 10 to 1, so they are your most common opponent in an online/casual setting. And because of their inexperience/scrubbishness, they will ratchet JD into any deck that runs at least 4 LS, because, it's not the fact that they won't draw it, it's the fact that they will inevitably topdeck JD and sack a win. That's all they care about, and what i base my thought processes on. While it's all fine and good to account for skilled players in a competitive or tournament setting, it's by far more prudent to account for the scrubs you meet every day. And they, of course, will force JD into anything with at least 4 LS. Which is why practically any ShadollSworn deck I've faced had JD shoved in there. Does that make sense at all in terms of my argument?

 

Well, for the first point, it is true and false at the same time. While I agree that there was the risk that you could lose important cards (especially spell cards), keep in mind that most cards at that time were depending on the Lightsworn "numbers". In other words, some of the Lightsworns had effects only if you reached a certain number of Lightsworns in the Graveyard. While some cards milled out were useless, you could always recycle these with Rinyan, Lumina, Pot of Avarice and others, while you could keep the really important cards there like 1 LS per name, Necro Gardna, and so on.

 

While I agree with some statements here, this rides us to a completely different discussion that this whole topic is all about: Judgment Dragon. Since the release of the archetype, people were always discussing about this card's design as it was always overpowered, to say the least. To the top it off, I can't remember if these card was (semi-)limited at any time, but even if it was, during its lifespan's 90% (at least), this card was ALWAYS at three. This is one of the few decks that had its boss monster to be run at 3 (almost) always. There were no other Tier 1 deck with a similar state, and while they hurt it by Charge to 1 and Lumina to 1 (soon after their release), the deck still could be used in competitive scene because of this. The most degenerate part about this card is that it was always at 3 for some reason.

 

Oh, and you cannot do anything about scrubs. They make mistakes and they usually blame their deck or anything else instead of themselves for their mistakes. I used Lightsworn for a while not because I wanted cheap wins, but because I liked the idea of "high risk, high reward" and the arts are one of the most beautiful in the game's history in my opinion. While I'm not an active player nowadays (I play casually by using Ritual Beasts), LS has a special place in my heart and while I know the pros and cons of the whole deck, I think that some people blame the deck for the wrong reasons.

[The Warden]

Rinyan is well down the timeline. I personally, have no issues with the LS themselves. They're fine. I just hate the piece of trash that is JD. Michael was easily being set-up to be the successor for JD so he himself could finally fuck off. Obviously that didn't happen. As for Lumina, she was more of a swarm agent back then. She only really sparkles now because of her ability to bring back Raiden for instant set-up of Michael, who is effectively JD's wingman. But as I recall with Necro Gardna, it was a long ways down the line before people started to pick up on the idea of ChaosSworn. Plus, I think Necro Gardna has also been Limited for a while, or Semi'ed, can't really recall. See, I don't feel that LS mill stopped being a bad thing per say, I just see it as people weaponizing it instead.

 

It's fine if you like the high risk, high reward playstyle. It's just, so long as JD exists at anything above 0, I simply CANNOT see LS as high risk, because just one JD negates the risk outright.

[evilfusion]

As random trivia, JD has been Semi-Limited before, but never at a number less than 2. DAD has been everywhere except 0.

[Hunduel]

It's fine if you like the high risk, high reward playstyle. It's just, so long as JD exists at anything above 0, I simply CANNOT see LS as high risk, because just one JD negates the risk outright.

 

That's why I dropped the "pure" line after a while, and tried to create interesting variants for the deck that only used the milling engine of the Lightsworns, and not JD itself. Plantsworns were actually a really interesting deck, especially since we only had Debris Dragon as a tuner at that time when I built that deck. There were no Glow-Up, nor Spore. Still, it was good because of Dandylion, Lonefire, and Black Rose. It didn't even need Judgment Dragon, because it was a completely different deck. It just used milling. But was not a LS deck in a way to "mill until you can summon JD".

 

Unfortunately, Konami is not the kind of company that likes creative deck building and they limited all the cards that could be used to do such nice decks. (That's one of the reasons why I stopped playing Yu-Gi-Oh! and why I just play barely once in a month or two months.)

 

EDIT: Thank you evilfusion. While I had the feeling that it was semi-limited once, I knew that it was never limited. Well, DAD is an other case, though.

 

Also, I mentioned Rinyan because that was a thing when LS was released. However, it was not used after Synchros became a thing, and as you know, it was soon after the release of them.

[Maeriberii Haan]

As random trivia, JD has been Semi-Limited before, but never at a number less than 2. DAD has been everywhere except 0.

 

I believe JD has been at 1 during 2010 or so, but unsure.

[Hunduel]

I believe JD has been at 1 during 2010 or so, but unsure.

 

Now I checked it to make it sure. JD was semi-limited for 6 formats (was unlimited when released, in the next format was semi-limited and was for a while), then after its unlimiting, it was and is still unlimited for 11 formats. It is unlimited since 2011.

[The Warden]

From what I recall, Rinyan was never used at all. Because by then ChaosSworn and PlantSworn were the more prominent builds. Synchros had been out for a while, and she was completely moot in pure due to being so slow already. Though to be fair, PlantSworn deserved to be hit. It, it really deserved it.

[Hunduel]

From what I recall, Rinyan was never used at all. Because by then ChaosSworn and PlantSworn were the more prominent builds. Synchros had been out for a while, and she was completely moot in pure due to being so slow already. Though to be fair, PlantSworn deserved to be hit. It, it really deserved it.

 

While I used Plantsworn for a while until I went to more experimental decks, I agree. Black Rose was just too strong for its format, especially how easily could it be Summoned. With the Lightsworn milling engine and the plants you could utilize, it was almost (but just almost) as consistent as using a Tour Guide for a Xyz Summon, then it was a free "nuke the field" card, or you could use its second effect to destroy your opponent's defense (and it wasn't that hard since you milled enough to use it).

 

Rinyan was used in one variant, which was called "Mojasworn". It was a really obscure deck that used King of the Beasts to Special Summon 1 LV7 monster in the first or second turn and beat down your opponent really fast, and since it used beast cards, even cards like the freshly released Super-Nimble Mega hamster, 1 Rinyan was a must play to re-use Ryko.

[The Warden]

I wouldn't say Black Rose was (completely) the problem, but more the hyper synergy between the LS engine and the Plant engine. Since it was so damn easy to get the plants in the grave due to Lonefire or the LS, then you could just Synchro so many damn times. It's why the plant engine portion was hit so much, it was way too powerful for its own good. Especially since Reborn Tengu came around. But it's neither here or there now.

 

I can safely say I never heard of Mojasworn, but it does ring a few bells.

[Hunduel]

I wouldn't say Black Rose was (completely) the problem, but more the hyper synergy between the LS engine and the Plant engine. Since it was so damn easy to get the plants in the grave due to Lonefire or the LS, then you could just Synchro so many damn times. It's why the plant engine portion was hit so much, it was way too powerful for its own good. Especially since Reborn Tengu came around. But it's neither here or there now.

 

I can safely say I never heard of Mojasworn, but it does ring a few bells.

 

While the LS and Plant Engines worked almost perfectly fine together, the problem indeed was Black Rose. Without it, you would lose one usage of your Plants (second effect of BRD) and the other targets of Debris, like Ancient Fairy Dragon (or Iron Chain in some obscure cases), were pretty meh. While the Plants were indeed more important for the deck ban-wise, Black Rose was the real boss of the deck without question.

 

Mojasworn (or BeastSworn) was a really interesting deck. I started to use it way before there were any decklists about it (the same goes for Light Beatdown deck, that later became known as "Hero Beat") and I can tell you that while it lacked some cards (there were no good Beast Spell supports at that time, except the ATK booster), it was a really good rogue deck against some decks. The deck worked well because even if you milled out any of the key cards, like the King of the Beasts, you could use its effect from the Graveyard too. While Moja itself could be Summoned easily by cards like One for One, then later Key Mouse.

 

It became a bit better when they released the Naturia Synchros. However, the power creep was and still is real in the game and they released more impressing cards that done everything better and to the top it off, they had additional ATK and/or effect. The boss of the deck was outclassed, and so the deck too.