Summoner's Art [Reprint in Master of Pendulum]

[Synchronized]

 

Assume you can read the one line of text.

 

Anyway, confirmed for release in the Master of Pendulum TCG Deck.

 

Should this get hit? I think it's a bit too strong at 3 but maybe that's just my opinion.  Now that it's going to be easily accessible for everyone, it wouldn't shock me.

[vla1ne]

the value's gonna drop fast, so i suppose trading mine off for full value while i can later today will be the best option.

 

on another note, this card, and cards like it (normal monster searchers) were once fairly tame because the cards they searched didn't have effects that you could abuse. but now with pendulums, things like summoners art are becoming a lot more powerful than they were originally intended to be. putting it at 2, or even 1 would be somewhat understandable.

[mido9]

It's just a normal 141 search that's almost strictly worse than qliphort scout and insight magician in their respective decks. What's the broken here?

[Blake]

It's just a normal 141 search that's almost strictly worse than qliphort scout and insight magician in their respective decks. What's the broken here?

141 searchers aren't fair cards, no matter how you insist they are.

 

And he never said it was broken, just too strong for 3, so don't try to exaggerate his words to bolster your point.

 

Being able to run 37 cards + 3 "find anything" is not fair in the slightest, and it gives decks that happen to use them a significant edge, at the very least in theory. This means that you can run extra copies of cards you either want to find OR are your best cards, flat out. Like Scout. Scout's not a fair card, but this makes finding Scout much more consistent, and it's only one example of what is and is to come.

 

granted, magicians really shouldn't run this, but the pendulum mechanic on the whole makes this card less fair by virtue of Normal Pendulums. Scout is just the first, and Igknights also exist.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

141 searchers aren't fair cards, no matter how you insist they are.

 

And he never said it was broken, just too strong for 3, so don't try to exaggerate his words to bolster your point.

 

Being able to run 37 cards + 3 "find anything" is not fair in the slightest, and it gives decks that happen to use them a significant edge, at the very least in theory. This means that you can run extra copies of cards you either want to find OR are your best cards, flat out. Like Scout. Scout's not a fair card, but this makes finding Scout much more consistent, and it's only one example of what is and is to come.

 

granted, magicians really shouldn't run this, but the pendulum mechanic on the whole makes this card less fair by virtue of Normal Pendulums. Scout is just the first, and Igknights also exist.

"Being able to run 37 cards + 3 "find anything" is not fair in the slightest"

 

 

Must we hang Art for Scout's crime? Magician Pendulum hardly uses this card anyway.

 

It's not quite a open and shut case, there is a difference between ROTA vs Stratos and Art vs Scout

 

not all 141's are made equal. You are correct in the case that Scout is already broke, but this card has such a small niche it's really not even "too strong"

[Blake]

Must we hang Art for Scout's crime? Magician Pendulum hardly uses this card anyway.

 

It's not quite a open and shut case, there is a difference between ROTA vs Stratos and Art vs Scout

 

not all 141's are made equal

>ignoring that i said it's not good in magician

 

It's not like Scout's the only card that will ever abuse it. I did mention Igknights, for example, which at least have the option (not sure how it's built atm). And there are only going to be more with time.

 

I said it was on Scout, as well, but that doesn't change the issues with Art as the game moves forward.

 

You're correct that they're not all equal. RotA is 4 or lower only, where Fossil Dig is 6 and lower only. Some have costs but search more, like Onomatopaira or P-Call, and others have costs but search generically, like Creeping Darkness.

 

That said, all searchers that lack real restrictions are made equal in that they are not a fair game prescence. Regardless of impact, it is still a 37 + 3 encourager, which is a naturally unfair concept, especially when some decks can run multiples and reduce the deck size with each.

[Synchronized]

It's the fact that Normal Pendulums exist and this card being at 3 hinders that mechanic by making anything that comes afterwards more abuseable as a result

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's the fact that Normal Pendulums exist and this card being at 3 hinders that mechanic by making anything that comes afterwards more abuseable as a result

And how many YCS have normal pendulums won again?

[mido9]

Being able to run 37 cards + 3 "find anything" is not fair in the slightest, and it gives decks that happen to use them a significant edge, at the very least in theory. This means that you can run extra copies of cards you either want to find OR are your best cards, flat out. Like Scout. Scout's not a fair card, but this makes finding Scout much more consistent, and it's only one example of what is and is to come.

Sure, but a lot of 'find whatever' cards are often advantage generating cards on their own(scout/BWW) or have a bonus tacked on them(Dinomist Charge/Tenki just since it's bear fodder) or even just things like Deneb or Stratos or for a newer example Speedroid Beigomax that leave a body on the board to be reused, recycled, etc that you'd rather have those searchers over what you were going to search with them. Sure, some of them are absurd design, but there's still not much less fancy than art.

 

Sometimes it's a tiny extra like juggler's battle damage effect but you'd still play that over say, an archetype specific ROTA if you were needed to choose to play only 3(you'd play both yeah, but still)

 

With summoner's art/rota/etc all you're getting is just whatever you searched. It's basically comparable to just drawing that card you were going to search.

 

Basically, it's that these sorts of 141 "find anything" searchers are basically the most tame out of every searcher type because they can't generate advantage in any way, they just grab you what you want with no bonus and that's that, which makes them the most 'reasonable' way to make things more consistent if you had to give something consistency to perform their plays(namely normal pends).

[Blake]

Sure, but a lot of 'find whatever' cards are often advantage generating cards on their own(scout/BWW) or have a bonus tacked on them(Dinomist Charge/Tenki just since it's bear fodder) or even just things like Deneb or Stratos or for a newer example Speedroid Beigomax that leave a body on the board to be reused, recycled, etc that you'd rather have those searchers over what you were going to search with them. Sometimes it's a tiny extra like juggler's battle damage effect but you'd still play that over say, an archetype specific ROTA if you were needed to choose to play only 3(you'd play both yeah, but still)

 

With summoner's art/rota/etc all you're getting is just whatever you searched. It's basically comparable to just drawing that card you were going to search.

 

Basically, it's that these sorts of 141 "find anything" searchers are basically the most tame out of every searcher type because they can't generate advantage in any way, they just grab you what you want with no bonus and that's that, which makes them the most 'reasonable' way to make things more consistent if you had to give something consistency to perform their plays(namely normal pends).

The fact you'd play both just breaks your entire first point. Your argument is "it's not a plus, it's fine", which isn't true.

 

Except it gives you 3 more copies of that card to search, and those 3 have the versatility to be one of a plethora of cards. It's not 3 extra Scout/Deneb, it's 3 Extra Scout OR Monolith/Deneb OR Altair OR Vega. It's not comparable to drawing that card because it is, in fact, better than drawing a specific card.

 

The most tame are definitely on Normal Searchers, like Magileine. They may be a +, but they require a slow means to make such, and only one a turn unless you jump through hoops.

 

A deck doesn't deserve to be consistent for existing. Searchers like this have no drawback, are versatile, and just reward you for picking X deck type. Being able to grab something without an NS, without setup, anything is not tame, and you seriously undervalue a totally free search.

[mido9]

The fact you'd play both just breaks your entire first point. Your argument is "it's not a plus, it's fine", which isn't true.

 

A deck doesn't deserve to be consistent for existing. Searchers like this have no drawback, are versatile, and just reward you for picking X deck type. Being able to grab something without an NS, without setup, anything is not tame, and you seriously undervalue a totally free search.

It's that when it's not actually making your plays better, just a smidge more consistent, it's not actually 'a reward' for playing a deck at that point, it just becomes the ability.. to make the deck's plays and choose them. You have flexibility with it, but it's still just the same old plays and being able to pick one just.. doesnt make it any better to actually do those plays.

 

And well, I dont think "being able to choose one of 3 completely balanced options" is something that's actually advantageous to actually need banlist attention.

[Blake]

It's that when it's not actually making your plays better, just a smidge more consistent, it's not actually 'a reward' for playing a deck at that point, it just becomes the ability.. to make the deck's plays and choose them. You have flexibility with it, but it's still just the same old plays and being able to pick one just.. doesnt make it any better to actually do those plays.

 

And well, I dont think "being able to choose one of 3 completely balanced options" is something that's actually advantageous to actually need banlist attention.

It is a reward. You choose a deck that has a searcher, and you're rewarded for it by having to only run 37 cards + 3 more, at times better, copies of your best cards. It does make it better, because you don't have to make the "same old plays".

 

If you draw Deneb, you can't NS it to get Altair's effect that turn.

If you draw RotA, you just find Altair.

 

The options aren't completely balanced, and never will be. You can argue "targets' fault, targets' fault," all you want, but at a point, you have to understand that being able to search those targets, to make them "just a smidge more consistent", that may be at least part of the issue. Like Lavalval Chain, though that card did more than a smidge for sure.

 

Generic cards are not innocent because specific cards exist. Nor is the opposite true. You cannot make blanket statements to defend generic cards and demonize specific ones, or vice versa. Maybe if you remade YGO from scratch that would be a thing, but it's not, so the blaming of targets will never be correct beyond reproach.

 

Being able to run 3 extra copies of your best card(s) is a dumb thing, and it cannot always be the targets' fault.

[mido9]

The options aren't completely balanced, and never will be. You can argue "targets' fault, targets' fault," all you want, but at a point, you have to understand that being able to search those targets, to make them "just a smidge more consistent", that may be at least part of the issue. Like Lavalval Chain, though that card did more than a smidge for sure.

Being able to run 3 extra copies of your best card(s) is a dumb thing, and it cannot always be the targets' fault.

Sure but, being able to have multiple of a card with no bonuses tacked onto that card makes it so that it's much more likely to be that card's problem. I mean, the best card in your deck is just not going to be stronger JUST because you're going to draw it more consistently.

 

As it is, I just dont see any reason to think that adding something because it was with summoner's art is better than just drawing it, which makes it so that whichever card is the "best" in a scenario is best whether art is in hand or not.. which makes art by definition not what makes that card best in that scenario. I mean in your example drawing altair is the same as drawing ROTA, so ROTA isnt technically an improvement, so either drawing altair with either ROTA or itself is fine, or there's a problem with altair.

 

And this really isnt about generic or specific. It's about whether the way the card works itself is broken or not on its own mechanics. Sure it might be part of an issue, but so far I really havent seen any card that shows that, and not a whole lot of reason to believe there will be.

 

Im probably going in circles here but hey.

[Blake]

Sure but, being able to have multiple of a card with no bonuses tacked onto that card makes it so that it's much more likely to be that card's problem. I mean, the best card in your deck is just not going to be stronger JUST because you're going to draw it more consistently.

 

As it is, I just dont see any reason to think that adding something because it was with summoner's art is better than just drawing it, which makes it so that whichever card is the "best" in a scenario is best whether art is in hand or not.. which makes art by definition not what makes that card best in that scenario. I mean in your example drawing altair is the same as drawing ROTA, so ROTA isnt technically an improvement, so either drawing altair with either ROTA or itself is fine, or there's a problem with altair.

 

And this really isnt about generic or specific. It's about whether the way the card works itself is broken or not on its own mechanics. Sure it might be part of an issue, but so far I really havent seen any card that shows that, and not a whole lot of reason to believe there will be.

 

Im probably going in circles here but hey.

So it's fine to have 3 extra copies of any given copy? With the trade-off that, in lieu of BEING an extra copy, it's more versatile and is a deckthin? Being able to find Pendulum Sorceror via any of the three cards that can find it ASAP (not exact comparisons, but hey) makes them better. Not stronger, but better Even if Monkeyboard was a spell, making it resolve more consistently does, in fact, make it better. It makes the deck as a whole stronger and more consistent, as well.

 

Summoner's Art is more versatile copies. You're trying to compare it strictly to drawing the card, but it is extra copies with more utility.

 

Draw RotA, then:

A. find Vega to SS a guy from hand and no ATK restriction

B. find Altair to revive a guy, but have a restriction

 

And this gives you options. Sure, one of them is hardly going to be right in a situation, but being given the option to think through which leads you further is strong. Sheer versatility.

 

Additionally, it's a +0 deckthin at worst, which means, strictly speaking, it is better than drawing the card. Situations change, but it is mathematically superior.

 

But that's the thing. When does a target becoem too good? Why is it the target's fault that there is a 100% generic card that makes it too accessible? Let's revert to Lavlaval Chain:

 

Clownblade exists. It has a bunch of new cards, potential as a strong engine, and none of the cards stand out as too good within clownblade. Maybe you could semi Halberd, but that still is a stretch.

 

What made this deck so good? Lavalval made it stupidly consistent. Yet people still argue the clowns are a problem, even though the cards are just solid without Chain.

 

It's harder to make examples with RotA, seeing as you have to draw it, but the points remain. It DOES boil down to generic vs specific, as the argument about cards being broken is so dependent on the gamestate. That only leaves GvS. In which case, it's just attempting to spare the cards that support EVERYTHING too much by punishing a single deck. It doesn't matter that the other decks aren't good, they don't deserve such a good card, either.

[vla1ne]

this card was not made with normal pendulums in mind, but now that they're here this kind of card will only get vastly better with time. it's a generic no cost searcher for any 5+ normal pendulum, meaning that from now on, every level 5+ normal pendulum will have a searcher. I'm not calling that broken. but what i am saying is that from a design standpoint, that means having this card in your deck means you have an extra copy of every single card it can search. every extra copy of this card in your deck will ideally be the equivalent of having at least 3 other cards available upon drawing it. every copy of this card leads to more options than the individual cards that it can search.

 

 

i don't support banning it, but it has a pretty decent amount of good cards it can search, and that list of cards will grow/ is growing. semi/ limiting it early might save everybody some headaches.

[BlackBeartic]

This card is why I wonder why the only semi limited scout.

 

I like how people say that limiting this or scout will "kill qliphorts" when more or less there is still a ton of search cards for it.

I'd honestly say make scout at 1 and keep this at 3 and be done with it tbh. I'd say ban scout but that'd actually ruin the deck.

[Progenitor]

Sure but, being able to have multiple of a card with no bonuses tacked onto that card makes it so that it's much more likely to be that card's problem. I mean, the best card in your deck is just not going to be stronger JUST because you're going to draw it more consistently.

 

That's the entire reason Black is arguing in the first place mido  Sure, on paper it's a +0.  But there is also a little something in RNG based games called inherent advantage.  That's essentially anything that takes RNG out of the equation, by some degree, for any length of time.

 

If you want to play Qli, you pretty much have to draw Scout or lose.  You only have 2 scouts.  Therefore you have, essentially, an approximately 1/4 chance to draw it on your opening hand.  If you don't you're gonna have a rough time while you try to topdeck.  Card's like summoner's art takes the RNG of that inherent downside to Qli and makes it a constant rather than a variable.

 

Summoner's Art was created with the inherent downside that "level 5+ normals kinda suck in this game right now.  i think that justifies taking a tiny bit of RNG away from those decks."  The same exact thing happened with Preparation of Rites.  Rituals were garbage, so it was fine, but once nekroz dropped, it's inherent balancing condition was no longer a factor, so it was completely broken.

 

The point Black is trying to make is that a Searcher as a concept has to either:

1. be so conditional that it only applies to 1 archetype so that it cannot be abused in situations it wasn't initially designed for
2. have a downside that's even stronger than the search in order for the inherent balancing mechanic to not even be a deciding factor.

This inherent balance is just plain bad design, but it's the foundation on what generic support is based on.  Fine, make it generic.  But it better have a cost that makes it at the very and absolutely least a -1 on activation and maybe even another downside which doesn't inherently affect advantage.  If you don't want that, fine.  Make your searcher a +0, but you better be absolutely positive that it's conditional enough to be, in a nutshell, Future-Proofed

[mido9]

That's the entire reason Black is arguing in the first place mido  Sure, on paper it's a +0.  But there is also a little something in RNG based games called inherent advantage.  That's essentially anything that takes RNG out of the equation, by some degree, for any length of time.

 

If you want to play Qli, you pretty much have to draw Scout or lose.  You only have 2 scouts.  Therefore you have, essentially, an approximately 1/4 chance to draw it on your opening hand.  If you don't you're gonna have a rough time while you try to topdeck.  Card's like summoner's art takes the RNG of that inherent downside to Qli and makes it a constant rather than a variable.

Yeah but you wouldnt actually want something to go from consistently balanced to either underpowered at a time(by not getting its combo pieces at all) or overpowered(by getting them) at any time. That just makes the game luckbased and feel unfair to lose with, and unfair to lose against.

 

I cant think of something more future proof than something that's exactly as strong as what you're searching.

[Blake]

Yeah but you wouldnt actually want something to go from consistently balanced to either underpowered at a time(by not getting its combo pieces at all) or overpowered(by getting them) at any time. That just makes the game luckbased and feel unfair to lose with, and unfair to lose against.

 

I cant think of something more future proof than something that's exactly as strong as what you're searching.

The searchers aren't consistently balanced. Unless every type has a RotA with the same qualifications as all other types, then there is an inherent imabalance.

 

And even then, not all decks WANT RotAs. So it's still giving an edge to some decks.

 

And I'm not defending Onomatopaira, but at least it takes something to use it and encourages you to either go -1 (Gagaga) or go +0 with some form of setup (Gogogo/Dododo), as opposed to simply slap card down for 0 cost and find stuff.

 

The cards are extremely versatile, and giva a deck has a technical advantage because you're running a "smaller" deck.

[polocatfan]

It's not strong. Scout and Igknights are strong. Hitting this card would hurt a lot of Rogue decks and wouldn't really solve the real problem.