What todo/not do when making custom cards

[Surge77754]

A lot of people on Duelingbook think that making custom archetypes in yugioh is about winning.  Yes, it is about winning, but it's also about being reasonable in your card design as well and making you and the opponent have a good time dueling.  If you look at the TCG Meta, a lot of the Meta winning strategies have something in common - consistency.  Consistency is the way of getting the resource(s) that you need at a given time, and this includes searching, and not to mention recycling as well.  

Let's look at the TCG Meta for 2024.We have Labrynth Deck, Centurion Deck, Fire Kings, Kashtira, Branded Despia, Rescue Ace, etc. Every one of these decks has something in common - the ability to recycle their cards and get their resources consistently.  

So the point is, you want to win with something that you have created by yourself.  It is better to be innovation first, and then think about the Meta 2nd. 

Do:

• Think of ideas that have been abandoned by Konami and give them new light.
• Explore uncharted territory with your cards (e.g. Synchro Union/Link Union monsters as Konami has never touched on that territory.)
• Try to get help from others with writing the PSCT of your cards (even better if someone can do BOTH PSCT and balancing as well).
• Be innovative when making custom cards.  
• Use HOPTs to balance out your cards.  

Don't:

• Take the TCG Meta and put that into your own custom card design.  This shows laziness, as people would rather play the originals as opposed to your deck.
• Link 1's - Konami abandoned Link 1 because of how easily spammable they can be.  The only exception is that you put a spin on your Link 1.
• Try to make a deck to shut down the opponent.  Lockdown decks can be tricky, as it is like a "poison" that must applied to both side.
• Make 5+ negates/disruption end boards - this is the type of deck that makes people want to quit against you.
• Make custom hand traps (like custom Ash Blossom) for your archetype.  Every card in the archetype should help in a way to the archetype's mechanic. 
• Try to make an meta archetype on day 1 and expect everything to work out just fine. 

 

[Rongaulius]

I was just talking with a guy on here about not making custom archetypes too oppressive.  It isn't impressive, cool, or clever to design a custom archetype that can't be stopped.  That's just lazy card design. 

Most complaints from casual players about meta strategies is that there are too many negates, there are too many interactions from the opponent during your turn, boss monsters are too tough to out, your own favorite boss monsters get nuked before they ever do anything, etc.  So then they take that mindset and make a custom strategy that is 99.99% consistent, can play through anything thrown at it, and has an end board with a titanic boss that can't die, can nuke the opposing field, and embodies in one card everything that that person dislikes about the TCG meta.  At that point you have become the very thing you despise.  Been there and done that myself.  

[Surge77754]

51 minutes ago, Rongaulius said:

I was just talking with a guy on here about not making custom archetypes too oppressive.  It isn't impressive, cool, or clever to design a custom archetype that can't be stopped.  That's just lazy card design. 

Most complaints from casual players about meta strategies is that there are too many negates, there are too many interactions from the opponent during your turn, boss monsters are too tough to out, your own favorite boss monsters get nuked before they ever do anything, etc.  So then they take that mindset and make a custom strategy that is 99.99% consistent, can play through anything thrown at it, and has an end board with a titanic boss that can't die, can nuke the opposing field, and embodies in one card everything that that person dislikes about the TCG meta.  At that point you have become the very thing you despise.  Been there and done that myself.  

You know, you have a good point.  Consistency is a good thing, but it must be kept in moderation when designing a custom archetype.  For me, the way is simple, when I put a Counter Trap for my archetype with 1 negate I stop, and then I make sure the disruptions are reasonable like probably 1 or 2.  The thing is, seeing the meta has taught me one thing - to keep things check.  

And you are right - making a custom card archetype that is too oppressive is not a good idea.  

Think about it, all Union monsters do is boost stats but they don't do very cool things, except SBC Therion, which I don't want to emulate.  

So then they take that mindset and make a custom strategy that is 99.99% consistent, can play through anything thrown at it, and has an end board with a titanic boss that can't die, can nuke the opposing field, and embodies in one card everything that that person dislikes about the TCG meta. 
That should be treated as a warning to those to design custom archetypes.

Edited January 10 by Surge77754

[Nopenguin]

Link Union, hmm. Interesting

[Surge77754]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:32 PM, Rongaulius said:

I was just talking with a guy on here about not making custom archetypes too oppressive.  It isn't impressive, cool, or clever to design a custom archetype that can't be stopped.  That's just lazy card design. 

Most complaints from casual players about meta strategies is that there are too many negates, there are too many interactions from the opponent during your turn, boss monsters are too tough to out, your own favorite boss monsters get nuked before they ever do anything, etc.  So then they take that mindset and make a custom strategy that is 99.99% consistent, can play through anything thrown at it, and has an end board with a titanic boss that can't die, can nuke the opposing field, and embodies in one card everything that that person dislikes about the TCG meta.  At that point you have become the very thing you despise.  Been there and done that myself.  

Too many negates is a problem.  Makes people want to quit.  Agree on that one.

Too many interactions from the opponents during your turn.  You need to know the difference between an interaction and an interruption.  An interruption is something that clears the opponent's board on your turn.  And interaction can be like link summoning on your opponent's turn, which can be frustrating, yes, but it depends on what is going on.  

Boss monsters that are tough to out.  That I agree on.  No one wants those.  

The end board is definitely where the problem lies at.  If you end on 1 Counter Trap negate and 0-2 interruptions, that's okay, but more than that and people start to quit.  I have seen those.  

 

[Rongaulius]

The interactions vs interruptions bit is a huge point of misunderstanding.  An interruption is offensive, preventing the opponent from doing something. An interaction is defensive, helping to maintain your own board presence and/or keep you from losing card advantage.  Interruptions tend to be annoying and frustrating, while interactions are usually much less so. Unless the interaction leads to you gaining another interruption...

[Surge77754]

10 hours ago, Rongaulius said:

The interactions vs interruptions bit is a huge point of misunderstanding.  An interruption is offensive, preventing the opponent from doing something. An interaction is defensive, helping to maintain your own board presence and/or keep you from losing card advantage.  Interruptions tend to be annoying and frustrating, while interactions are usually much less so. Unless the interaction leads to you gaining another interruption...

 Unless the interaction leads to you gaining another interruption... that is something you don't want to get into.  Thank you for pointing this out.

[Horu]

Most archetype specific cards don't even interact with the opponent. Yes, there are a few but those are more intended to shut down attempts at wiping your board.

[Surge77754]

On 1/15/2024 at 9:34 AM, Horu said:

Most archetype specific cards don't even interact with the opponent. Yes, there are a few but those are more intended to shut down attempts at wiping your board.

You are right for once, Horu.  But still, we have to keep in mind that  yugioh is a 2P game.  Let's be civil here.

[.Rooster]

I think an important part is making the archetype make sense. My spell banishing archetype seemed to ripoff random archetypes and was set up to work with lv3 fiends because why not.

 

My second archetype (Arbiters) seems to be OP ngl but it’s true to its mechanics. It doesn’t try to pump out a billion negates but it ends on basically FTK (2 interruptions, 1 defensive interruption, 2 innocuous looking but oppressive disruptions and brutal followup)

[Surge77754]

2 hours ago, .Rooster said:

I think an important part is making the archetype make sense. My spell banishing archetype seemed to ripoff random archetypes and was set up to work with lv3 fiends because why not.

 

My second archetype (Arbiters) seems to be OP ngl but it’s true to its mechanics. It doesn’t try to pump out a billion negates but it ends on basically FTK (2 interruptions, 1 defensive interruption, 2 innocuous looking but oppressive disruptions and brutal followup)

For the 1st part, that is indeed true.  You want your archetypes to be cohesive and follow something, and you want to do that throughout your archetype.

For the 2nd part, an FTK,I don't know, but it can be frowned upon in the world of yugioh customs as yugioh is a 2P game.

[.Rooster]

1 hour ago, Surge77754 said:

For the 1st part, that is indeed true.  You want your archetypes to be cohesive and follow something, and you want to do that throughout your archetype.

For the 2nd part, an FTK,I don't know, but it can be frowned upon in the world of yugioh customs as yugioh is a 2P game.

It’s not FTK but it’s a semi-oppressive endboard

[Surge77754]

55 minutes ago, .Rooster said:

It’s not FTK but it’s a semi-oppressive endboard

Understandable, as you don't want to make a floodgate.  As those tend to be bad design.

[KH911]

I wish Konami would read this thread lol. But I'm sure Konami knows full well how to do good card design (they've done it many times) and they still insist on making broken cards and archetypes so they can sell.

On a more serious note, I've had this conversation with several people at my locals and they all responded with "interaction is what makes Yugioh fun" and I agree, but there's a point when it just becomes too much. When a deck can put up 2 negates, a quick effect banish, and a quick effect destruction on the first turn, then your opponent doesn't even get to play the game and that's a problem.

The other problem, in my opinion, is Konami designs generic cards to be way too powerful and archetypal cards to be way too generic. Generic stuff is good, important in fact, but generic cards should never be stronger than archetype specific cards. Why does Baronne de Fleur destroy 1 card, negate 1 card, tag out for another monster in GY, have 3000 ATK and 2400 DEF, AND has fully generic materials? Why does Zeus quick effect non-destruction remove the entire board, have 3000 ATK and DEF, with the easiest summoning requirement of any Xyz monster? If they REALLY wanted these extremely generic cards to have such powerful effects, then the least they could is give them weak stats. Make Baronne 1500 ATK 1200 DEF or have Zeus be 1000 ATK and 1000 DEF so I could attack over them before making my plays.

[Jordan Ashwood]

On 1/9/2024 at 3:21 PM, Surge77754 said:

A lot of people on Duelingbook think that making custom archetypes in yugioh is about winning.  Yes, it is about winning, but it's also about being reasonable in your card design as well and making you and the opponent have a good time dueling.  If you look at the TCG Meta, a lot of the Meta winning strategies have something in common - consistency.  Consistency is the way of getting the resource(s) that you need at a given time, and this includes searching, and not to mention recycling as well.  

Let's look at the TCG Meta for 2024.We have Labrynth Deck, Centurion Deck, Fire Kings, Kashtira, Branded Despia, Rescue Ace, etc. Every one of these decks has something in common - the ability to recycle their cards and get their resources consistently.  

So the point is, you want to win with something that you have created by yourself.  It is better to be innovation first, and then think about the Meta 2nd. 

Do:

• Think of ideas that have been abandoned by Konami and give them new light.
• Explore uncharted territory with your cards (e.g. Synchro Union/Link Union monsters as Konami has never touched on that territory.)
• Try to get help from others with writing the PSCT of your cards (even better if someone can do BOTH PSCT and balancing as well).
• Be innovative when making custom cards.  
• Use HOPTs to balance out your cards.  

Don't:

• Take the TCG Meta and put that into your own custom card design.  This shows laziness, as people would rather play the originals as opposed to your deck.
• Link 1's - Konami abandoned Link 1 because of how easily spammable they can be.  The only exception is that you put a spin on your Link 1.
• Try to make a deck to shut down the opponent.  Lockdown decks can be tricky, as it is like a "poison" that must applied to both side.
• Make 5+ negates/disruption end boards - this is the type of deck that makes people want to quit against you.
• Make custom hand traps (like custom Ash Blossom) for your archetype.  Every card in the archetype should help in a way to the archetype's mechanic. 
• Try to make an meta archetype on day 1 and expect everything to work out just fine. 

 

This is a fantastic thread that EVERYONE should read. It's all about balance! A custom card isn't cool if you just killed the entire format xD

19 hours ago, KH911 said:

I wish Konami would read this thread lol. But I'm sure Konami knows full well how to do good card design (they've done it many times) and they still insist on making broken cards and archetypes so they can sell.

On a more serious note, I've had this conversation with several people at my locals and they all responded with "interaction is what makes Yugioh fun" and I agree, but there's a point when it just becomes too much. When a deck can put up 2 negates, a quick effect banish, and a quick effect destruction on the first turn, then your opponent doesn't even get to play the game and that's a problem.

The other problem, in my opinion, is Konami designs generic cards to be way too powerful and archetypal cards to be way too generic. Generic stuff is good, important in fact, but generic cards should never be stronger than archetype specific cards. Why does Baronne de Fleur destroy 1 card, negate 1 card, tag out for another monster in GY, have 3000 ATK and 2400 DEF, AND has fully generic materials? Why does Zeus quick effect non-destruction remove the entire board, have 3000 ATK and DEF, with the easiest summoning requirement of any Xyz monster? If they REALLY wanted these extremely generic cards to have such powerful effects, then the least they could is give them weak stats. Make Baronne 1500 ATK 1200 DEF or have Zeus be 1000 ATK and 1000 DEF so I could attack over them before making my plays.

Hugely agreed, love the way you think. Interaction is fun! ...But let your opponent play the game, still. I think of Gladiator Beasts' tag mechanic as "excellent card design" where they open up a toolbox... if and only if you managed to actually battle with your opponent. 

[PrinceAsmodeus]

On 1/11/2024 at 6:06 PM, Surge77754 said:

  Boss monsters that are tough to out.  That I agree on.  No one wants those. 

I'd say that depends on how hard it is to Summon. If it has big requirements it's supposed to do big things. My own Archetype ends on different boss monsters (I have 2 bosses that are blatantly broken but those are just for my anime-style purposes and even them are tricky to summon) that have big requirements, shit like going minus fucking 8-10 to summon the card I'll pin. Those monsters, yes, they are meant to be get rid off and SHOULD be hard to get rid of.

Zor' Vel over here for example, while he borders on absurdity, needs 3 monsters that have their own card-specific requirements (-3 or more, each) to bring to the field. He is meant to win the game, not to exist and give 1 negate to you. (And no, his attack won't go to heaven. My whole Archetype is revolving around banishing shit from everywhere so there won't be much to give him ATK. Chances are he won't even win you the game in the three turns he got of free game.)

*Typo detected, his summon gives him x100 per card, not 200.

[Surge77754]

On 2/29/2024 at 1:14 AM, PrinceAsmodeus said:

I'd say that depends on how hard it is to Summon. If it has big requirements it's supposed to do big things. My own Archetype ends on different boss monsters (I have 2 bosses that are blatantly broken but those are just for my anime-style purposes and even them are tricky to summon) that have big requirements, shit like going minus fucking 8-10 to summon the card I'll pin. Those monsters, yes, they are meant to be get rid off and SHOULD be hard to get rid of.

Zor' Vel over here for example, while he borders on absurdity, needs 3 monsters that have their own card-specific requirements (-3 or more, each) to bring to the field. He is meant to win the game, not to exist and give 1 negate to you. (And no, his attack won't go to heaven. My whole Archetype is revolving around banishing shit from everywhere so there won't be much to give him ATK. Chances are he won't even win you the game in the three turns he got of free game.)

*Typo detected, his summon gives him x100 per card, not 200.

An intriguing counterexample to my argument.  That too, I respect and I will take this into consideration.

[Surge77754]

On 2/20/2024 at 8:50 PM, KH911 said:

I wish Konami would read this thread lol. But I'm sure Konami knows full well how to do good card design (they've done it many times) and they still insist on making broken cards and archetypes so they can sell.

On a more serious note, I've had this conversation with several people at my locals and they all responded with "interaction is what makes Yugioh fun" and I agree, but there's a point when it just becomes too much. When a deck can put up 2 negates, a quick effect banish, and a quick effect destruction on the first turn, then your opponent doesn't even get to play the game and that's a problem.

The other problem, in my opinion, is Konami designs generic cards to be way too powerful and archetypal cards to be way too generic. Generic stuff is good, important in fact, but generic cards should never be stronger than archetype specific cards. Why does Baronne de Fleur destroy 1 card, negate 1 card, tag out for another monster in GY, have 3000 ATK and 2400 DEF, AND has fully generic materials? Why does Zeus quick effect non-destruction remove the entire board, have 3000 ATK and DEF, with the easiest summoning requirement of any Xyz monster? If they REALLY wanted these extremely generic cards to have such powerful effects, then the least they could is give them weak stats. Make Baronne 1500 ATK 1200 DEF or have Zeus be 1000 ATK and 1000 DEF so I could attack over them before making my plays.

That is so true, if you have a monster that can negate, it's powerful but if should have weak stats to compensate for it as in low ATK and DEF 

[The2kGod Raah]

On 1/9/2024 at 3:21 PM, Surge77754 said:

A lot of people on Duelingbook think that making custom archetypes in yugioh is about winning.  Yes, it is about winning, but it's also about being reasonable in your card design as well and making you and the opponent have a good time dueling.  If you look at the TCG Meta, a lot of the Meta winning strategies have something in common - consistency.  Consistency is the way of getting the resource(s) that you need at a given time, and this includes searching, and not to mention recycling as well.  

Let's look at the TCG Meta for 2024.We have Labrynth Deck, Centurion Deck, Fire Kings, Kashtira, Branded Despia, Rescue Ace, etc. Every one of these decks has something in common - the ability to recycle their cards and get their resources consistently.  

So the point is, you want to win with something that you have created by yourself.  It is better to be innovation first, and then think about the Meta 2nd. 

Do:

• Think of ideas that have been abandoned by Konami and give them new light.
• Explore uncharted territory with your cards (e.g. Synchro Union/Link Union monsters as Konami has never touched on that territory.)
• Try to get help from others with writing the PSCT of your cards (even better if someone can do BOTH PSCT and balancing as well).
• Be innovative when making custom cards.  
• Use HOPTs to balance out your cards.  

Don't:

• Take the TCG Meta and put that into your own custom card design.  This shows laziness, as people would rather play the originals as opposed to your deck.
• Link 1's - Konami abandoned Link 1 because of how easily spammable they can be.  The only exception is that you put a spin on your Link 1.
• Try to make a deck to shut down the opponent.  Lockdown decks can be tricky, as it is like a "poison" that must applied to both side.
• Make 5+ negates/disruption end boards - this is the type of deck that makes people want to quit against you.
• Make custom hand traps (like custom Ash Blossom) for your archetype.  Every card in the archetype should help in a way to the archetype's mechanic. 
• Try to make an meta archetype on day 1 and expect everything to work out just fine. 

 

I think "Try to get help from others with writing the PSCT of your cards (even better if someone can do BOTH PSCT and balancing as well)."
 point is the most important point becuase I see too many people miss things with this such as During the Main Phase: instead of during your main phase, either main phase, or adding (Quick Effect): To monster effects even though quick play spells, and trap cards are able to say this. Another thing is the difference between ":" , "; ", and "," which are so important. The other stuff maybe makes the card fun, or balanced, but this point makes the card a real card, instead of a fake card.

[Surge77754]

On 3/4/2024 at 9:52 PM, The2kGod Raah said:

I think "Try to get help from others with writing the PSCT of your cards (even better if someone can do BOTH PSCT and balancing as well)."
 point is the most important point becuase I see too many people miss things with this such as During the Main Phase: instead of during your main phase, either main phase, or adding (Quick Effect): To monster effects even though quick play spells, and trap cards are able to say this. Another thing is the difference between ":" , "; ", and "," which are so important. The other stuff maybe makes the card fun, or balanced, but this point makes the card a real card, instead of a fake card.

Indeed, you have hit the nail on your head.  That is the point most people forget when they make their yugioh custom cards.  Without PSCT and balance, cards become unclear to read/understand.  PSCT is very important in yugioh 1st off as it is how yugioh cards are written.

And furthermore, when making a custom archetype, the archetype has some ways to counter other archetypes, and not to mention the cards have to be well designed that they feel like real yugioh cards.  

Edited March 7 by Surge77754