What we need to discuss about AI art and the beef that it has started

[DMZ Dragon]

15 hours ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

That's not how all of this works you dumbass you probably don't work in a job with Computer Science you probably have no job your probably just some young person that has alot to learn about this world.

Your just a crazy dumbass AI Art Defender you bring no worth and value except being a piece of shit that is garbage and shoves out a bunch of Shit ass AI Generated Images you don't need to be protected or need a space space crap I will be harsh towards you and say the harsh truth you don't wanna hear why would you make a defense for AI Art when its just plagiarism it can't just create art it needs something to leech off you fucking idiot @DMZ Dragon your just the most R*****ed person what your spiting out is shit not facts if your not smart and you have no knowledge on the topic its better to say nothing at all than look like stupid dumbass!

I hate people like you and I wish just wish you where smarter and not just a waste of space on this planet.

You've got anger issues. I'm studying to be a computer science major when I'm old enough to go to college so I'd say I know what I'm talking about. I'm not even going to address the other things you've said

[Jakkapat]

1 minute ago, DMZ Dragon said:

You've got anger issues. I'm studying to be a computer science major when I'm old enough to go to college so I'd say I know what I'm talking about. I'm not even going to address the other things you've said

Let's end this topic. There's no use talking to a brainless person who isn't open to listening to other people's opinions. Make yourself the leader Thinking that everything must revolve around itself. It's a waste of time.

[FriendlyFire675]

A.I. isn't a bad thing, even the yugioh anime makes it seam like a bad thing but it's not. And they eventually point that out. I don't want to cause anything else and I'm here to say that it's gonna end here. Who cares how we got the image? What matters is the card itself, and that's why I'll be starting a topic for those who can't draw or don't like to use the A.I. generator where the card images will be left blank. You can put in images if you want but this way people can just have fun making cards. After all that's what yugioh is all about, having fun. The current meta is nothing than a bunch of Kiba's and I don't mean that in a good way. What happened to all the funny deck styles like with Joey's gambling deck? Or even duke's dice deck. Hell, most of the meta cards don't even appear in the anime. I play a deck called F.A. (Formula Athlete), basically I love my levels and I want them to break the game. Literally the highest level monster I had was 36 before my opponent quit. It was fun though and that's what matters, not this meta bull shit. In fact I use F.A. irl and online because that's what I like and I can even crush meta's with it like tearlimits and labyrinth. Let's put our past behind us and focus on a brighter future, one filled with fun. :)

[DMZ Dragon]

11 minutes ago, FriendlyFire675 said:

A.I. isn't a bad thing, even the yugioh anime makes it seam like a bad thing but it's not. And they eventually point that out. I don't want to cause anything else and I'm here to say that it's gonna end here. Who cares how we got the image? What matters is the card itself, and that's why I'll be starting a topic for those who can't draw or don't like to use the A.I. generator where the card images will be left blank. You can put in images if you want but this way people can just have fun making cards. After all that's what yugioh is all about, having fun. The current meta is nothing than a bunch of Kiba's and I don't mean that in a good way. What happened to all the funny deck styles like with Joey's gambling deck? Or even duke's dice deck. Hell, most of the meta cards don't even appear in the anime. I play a deck called F.A. (Formula Athlete), basically I love my levels and I want them to break the game. Literally the highest level monster I had was 36 before my opponent quit. It was fun though and that's what matters, not this meta bull shit. In fact I use F.A. irl and online because that's what I like and I can even crush meta's with it like tearlimits and labyrinth. Let's put our past behind us and focus on a brighter future, one filled with fun. :)

Please delete this before Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan sees it and goes off again. I like the comment and feel it's important that you said but Zamazenta has been going off on everybody and I'd rather them not have any reason to do so.

[cr47t]

5 hours ago, DMZ Dragon said:

Please delete this before Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan sees it and goes off again. I like the comment and feel it's important that you said but Zamazenta has been going off on everybody and I'd rather them not have any reason to do so.

if Zama goes off again just tag Enguin and Nyx, they can probably use their forum authority to put an end to that

on topic, as much as I'd like to share my opinion i think @Yui did a better job than I could have so I'll leave it here\

EDIT: so has @Rongaulius below

Edited April 11 by cr47t
give credit to another person with a well thought out case presented respectfully

[Rongaulius]

As someone who learned how to draw for the express purpose of drawing Yugioh cards (not joking), my opinion of AI images is that they shouldn't exist.  However.  They do.  I don't depend on my art for a living (and have had almost no time to draw anything for months anyway), so other people using AI doesn't directly affect me or my livelihood.

The AI images I've seen are generally immediately identifiable as AI-generated because they just don't look quite right.  The human brain is extremely good at pattern recognition, and human errors don't look the same as AI errors.  I dislike the AI image aesthetic just for how it looks, not even for how it's made.

On the ethical note, AI image generators are made and trained using the work of human artists without license or credit.  And then we get jnto why AI art should exist at all.  Why is it even a thing?  What is the purpose of an image generator that can take the place of a skilled artist?  The answer lies in the question: Taking the place of a skilled artist.  Cheapening the skill.  When everyone can generate an image of a given quality at the push of a button, the ability to draw that same image by hand is worthless. The idea of AI generators making art "accessible for everyone" is laughable and is a flawed argument at best.  Art is already accessible to anyone with a pencil and some cheap paper.  That's how I taught myself.  Took a couple years before it looked like I wanted it to look, but learning to draw isn't some mystical ritual that only a select few can attain.  And before students start interjecting that they don't have time due to school...buddy, I taught myself to draw while working full-time. Sometimes we don't have as much time as we want for the things we want.  That's just life. The only thing stopping you, the reader, from learning to draw, is that you haven't picked up a pencil and paper and tried to learn.  You don't need a fancy computer or art program to learn to draw by hand.  You just need a drop or two of patience and the willingness and desire to learn.  Patience is sadly in short supply these days, especially when free images are available with a few simple prompts.

All that said, I have no opinion on those who use AI generators for their own personal cards.  If you want to do that, do it.  It isn't hurting me, and arguing about it for hours is a waste of my time. Especially on this forum, where the use of AI images is done only for personal use.  I do think you'd be better off if you actually put in the effort to learn to draw, but that's your choice. Getting pissed off on the internet won't change a thing.

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

2 hours ago, FriendlyFire675 said:

A.I. isn't a bad thing, even the yugioh anime makes it seam like a bad thing but it's not.

IT IS what are you not getting no one likes AI because it hurts artist and it puts many others out of their carrier but again you think AI is super good like it can't do any harm didn't you read what @Yui wrote there's even tons of videos on YouTube about it god I wish you just where able to give it more thoughts on the legal side of this.

[FriendlyFire675]

3 minutes ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

IT IS what are you not getting no one likes AI because it hurts artist and it puts many others out of their carrier but again you think AI is super good like it can't do any harm didn't you read what @Yui wrote there's even tons of videos on YouTube about it god I wish you just where able to give it more thoughts on the legal side of this.

It hurts no one, ai can help inspire people on many things. Why can't you get that through your head, it's only you that's making a big deal. I can't draw to save my life if I had to, and everyone keeps saying "Just take some time and learn how". I physicaly can't, I can't draw. Everyone said I was an amazing artist when I was younger, that was before I got in a car accident. I use what I have available, and because I do this stuff in school I have restrictions on what I can access. If you have anything else to say to me go ahead, I'm done letting you act like the tyrant you are. I'm sorry if I'm being harsh but it's true, let people do what they want to do and stop judging everyone else.

[Galexyvoids]

7 hours ago, Yui said:

So uh, against my better judgment, I'm dropping in to provide a more rational and measured stance against AI, because lord knows this thread could use one after the nuclear war that just went down in here. I also happen to be a bit of an artist when I've had enough caffeine to will myself into it, so I like to think I can speak from a position of more direct involvement with the issues regarding generative AI. I'd like to start by addressing some other takes on the art theft machine and use thereof first, then try to hopefully provide a bit more insight after.

These excuses are no excuse, just to clear that up right out the gate. A common thread I see in AI art supporters is that they act as if doing art has some prohibitive barrier of entry, be it of skill or of money, when this couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, as a school student, you probably have all the tools you need within arm's reach as you're reading this! All you really need is something to draw on, something to draw with, and at least one body part that can hold the latter. It doesn't even have to be your hands, if you happen to not have hands. Art doesn't have to look good, and it in fact probably won't at first, but nobody starts off good at something. It just has to convey the idea. To quite literally illustrate my point, I doodled this in about eight minutes just based off the name of a custom card I recently re-discovered that I made back in 2014.

Conductor Angel

Now, yes, it looks like crap, but I also did a lot of stuff here that I either don't normally do with art, or that I've never done. My art is usually a lot better than this (and no, I'm not sharing it here). Plus, it's more to make the point, so I'm not too fussy about it looking good to be quite honest. That point being, my motor functions are impaired by autism, and I can still make something legible in less than ten minutes, with zero training or education on art, and only a small bit of on-and-off practice under my belt. Anyone can draw, and honestly, it's way more fun than typing some words and pushing the art theft button.

I'm speaking from a non-zero amount of first-hand experience on this one, and I added an extra line break here to further emphasize how important that statement is in this context.

And this is where I really get to shine as an artist! So, the short of it is that the training given to generative models is, for the most part, extremely unethical.

The slightly longer version is, these models were trained off art scraped up from sites like Twitter, Pixiv, DeviantArt, etc, but none of it was taken with the permission of the artists in question. Not only is this overall a very scummy move, since it's basically piggybacking off someone's years spent honing a craft they're proud of (except instead of someone it's some millions), but it could actually constitute intellectual property violations and/or copyright infringement. The exact legality of it all is still not settled, of course, but hopefully pointing out the ethical issue in greater detail helped shed some light on this particular question. Cow already did this, but I figured I should re-iterate it with my own perspective and more words, as someone whose stuff is potentially getting stolen without my knowledge or consent as I'm typing this sentence. I wish I could draw up a parallel for another hobby you can more directly relate to, but I've got nothing to work with there.

This is more or less the most respectable stance I've seen from people who use AI art. As much as it pains me to say it though, even though you don't mean any harm, any use of generative AI does still cause a non-zero amount of it. Again, these are points Cow already brought up, but the more an AI gets used, the more it can learn and correct its shortcomings. Not to mention, pushing the button does mean the machine once again combs over its libraries of unethically-sourced art. It would be like getting a cookie by pushing a button, but every time you do, a small handful of randomly-selected mice (or some other tiny creature, if you don't like mice) get a quick electric shock. You're not gonna kill anyone, but this metaphorical cookie factory does make life a lot harder for your small animal of choice. Even if this site's generator was removed entirely, it would still amount to a drop in the ocean at best, but it's not an ocean worth swimming in to begin with. If you still can't find yourself willing (because you are able) to pick up doing it yourself, you could always post cards in a purely-written format. Once upon a time, this forum even had a dedicated section just for that!

This thread has definitely gotten nonsensical in no time flat, but hopefully this sensical post helped give some new perspective on why AI is such a touchy subject, and why people who understand the details generally tell others not to use it.

You could present the idea without the use of AI art, is the crux of the problem. You've more or less got your head in the right place at least, so hopefully some of the junk I typed over the rest of this post ends up clicking with you in some way. Or, if you can't be bothered to read all that (I understand that too; I've been behind this keyboard for way too long at present and I'd like to wrap up my post now), I'd like this to be your one takeaway. You don't need classes to be a good artist. Literally the only thing I was taught about how to draw was a friend telling me on Discord "your strokes will look cleaner if you do them faster", and everything else beyond that is purely self-taught. Your hands are free and easy to use, too. On the note of these discussions getting heated... yeah. Please don't mistake some certain individuals as representing anti-AI sentiment as a whole.

As for my own opinions, there's not really much to discuss that I haven't already covered. I'm an artist myself. Not a good one, but I take some pride in my work all the same. So naturally, I don't like the idea that my hobby that I do for fun is being put under attack by a machine that fundamentally can't understand not just what art is, but why art is. And I just do it for fun, mind you. There are people who draw, animate, and so on, for a living, and this could very well put their livelihoods at risk if the machine gets good enough at it. So, seeing people use it - even if it's just for fun - doesn't sit well with me. Personally, I'd rather see a total piece of crap drawing made by a human being with love, as opposed to a soulless masterpiece calculated up by a computer that just sees it all as numbers and tags. But I've been drawing since before AI took off, and am probably older than any two non-Cow people in this thread combined, so what do I know?

Bro you ain't one of the 6 people-

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

5 minutes ago, Galexyvoids said:

Bro you ain't one of the 6 people-

 

that's kinda how public threads work anyone can reply

there's been 10 separate people so far

[Galexyvoids]

And it even said a list of the people who could talk in this but still no cares and types what BS being honest thought it would be blocked to everyone else or something

I rather hear people's opinions but maybe create a separate one for that. Since this is mainly those 6 people. 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Just now, Galexyvoids said:

And it even said a list of the people who could talk in this but still no cares and types what BS being honest thought it would be blocked to everyone else or something

that's what private messages are for usually

[Galexyvoids]

They should make a private one tbh

[FriendlyFire675]

Just now, Galexyvoids said:

They should make a private one tbh

It's not like a group chat on a phone, though it would be a nice feature for those who have friends on here

[FriendlyFire675]

9 minutes ago, FriendlyFire675 said:

It's not like a group chat on a phone, though it would be a nice feature for those who have friends on here

Never mind, aperently you can and I just never knew

[Galexyvoids]

Just now, FriendlyFire675 said:

Never mind, apparently you can and I just never knew

 

Just now, Galexyvoids said:

 

Fixed it

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

21 minutes ago, Galexyvoids said:

Bro you ain't one of the 6 people-

Dude you are a idiot the threads are public you should have just made a DM instead you know what it would be better if you weren't a user on the site everything was so much better compared to before you where a user on the site I'm not taking that disgusting insult back be mad and sad at me I don't give two shits about you if you lack a simple brain to know by creating this thread that its public there is no way to make it private you worthless piece of crap your not a site admin you have no power around here you could have made it a private DM.

I have just last few words for you that is gonna leave you hurt and offended: Fuck You Piece of Shit Your A Worthless Failure of a human being that is a waste of space on the earth you have no brain cells you don't have a job your just some rando.

[Galexyvoids]

1 minute ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

Dude you are a idiot the threads are public you should have just made a DM instead you know what it would be better if you weren't a user on the site everything was so much better compared to before you where a user on the site I'm not taking that disgusting insult back be mad and sad at me I don't give two shits about you if you lack a simple brain to know by creating this thread that its public there is no way to make it private you worthless piece of crap your not a site admin you have no power around here you could have made it a private DM.

I have just last few words for you that is gonna leave you hurt and offended: Fuck You Piece of Shit Your A Worthless Failure of a human being that is a waste of space on the earth you have no brain cells you don't have a job your just some rando.

Damn I forgot to block you 

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

39 minutes ago, FriendlyFire675 said:

It hurts no one, ai can help inspire people on many things. Why can't you get that through your head, it's only you that's making a big deal. I can't draw to save my life if I had to, and everyone keeps saying "Just take some time and learn how". I physicaly can't, I can't draw. Everyone said I was an amazing artist when I was younger, that was before I got in a car accident. I use what I have available, and because I do this stuff in school I have restrictions on what I can access. If you have anything else to say to me go ahead, I'm done letting you act like the tyrant you are. I'm sorry if I'm being harsh but it's true, let people do what they want to do and stop judging everyone else.

Oh I didn't know you have gotten into a car accident I feel sorry for you but @Galexyvoids I have no respect for but I do have respect for you @FriendlyFire675

[FriendlyFire675]

I'm just tired of hearing the arguing, it just needs to come to an end.

[Galexyvoids]

4 minutes ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

Oh I didn't know you have gotten into a car accident I feel sorry for you but @Galexyvoids I have no respect for but I do have respect for you @FriendlyFire675

I'm just telling the truth. As well as your assumption is wrong you have no idea how it is or no how anyone feels. I seriously can't understand you or want to in anyway.

Alr i might go kms again suicidal bs in my life 

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

Just now, Galexyvoids said:

I'm just telling the truth. As well as your assumption is wrong you have no idea how it is or no how anyone feels. I seriously can't understand you or want to in anyway.

@Galexyvoids I lost all and any respect for you I now see you as below a homeless person no wait that's an insult to them I would rather you a user be replaced with a member who is part of the evil Chinese Director Government I'm talking about Xi Piang.

[Galexyvoids]

1 minute ago, Galexyvoids said:

I'm just telling the truth. As well as your assumption is wrong you have no idea how it is or no how anyone feels. I seriously can't understand you or want to in anyway.

Alr i might go kms again suicidal bs in my life 

Total BS but it's true the more you say it the more your insecure Zama... And for me you don't have a single clue in the fabric of your existence and essence how it's at all...

1 minute ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

@Galexyvoids I lost all and any respect for you I now see you as below a homeless person no wait that's an insult to them I would rather you a user be replaced with a member who is part of the evil Chinese Director Government I'm talking about Xi Piang.

Fuck the government we are not talking that shit

2 minutes ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

@Galexyvoids I lost all and any respect for you I now see you as below a homeless person no wait that's an insult to them I would rather you a user be replaced with a member who is part of the evil Chinese Director Government I'm talking about Xi Piang.

Then again why bring people down if you are really the lowest bastered in all creation FUCK YOU I DON'T FUCKING CARE

[FriendlyFire675]

Just shut up both of you, enough is enough. settle this in a private chat where I don't have to hear it. You guys act like my divorced parents

[Galexyvoids]

3 minutes ago, Galexyvoids said:

Total BS but it's true the more you say it the more your insecure Zama... And for me you don't have a single clue in the fabric of your existence and essence how it's at all...

Fuck the government we are not talking that shit

Then again why bring people down if you are really the lowest bastered in all creation FUCK YOU I DON'T FUCKING CARE

All i'msaying is to back off you have no clue in your "braindead head" how it is.

1 minute ago, FriendlyFire675 said:

Just shut up both of you, enough is enough. settle this in a private chat where I don't have to hear it. You guys act like my divorced parents

Just tell me how to block that's all since that or I might go suicidal again with this Bs