Since I've been babblin' about playestin' recently...

[Tabris]

It's a 1-card OTK that doesn't even require any sort of graveyard setup. You draw Summon Priest and declare victory; it's as simple as that. How on earth is a 1-card OTK not a problem?

 

Then I'll drive the nail on Dark Dive Bomber's coffin. Easy as splat.

 

Regardless of the other legal cards, it is viewed as problematic to be able to convert one single card into one Synchro of any level equal to or greater than 4, but less than 7. Doing so while thinning the deck and prepping the Grave only adds to the lustre of the play. Namely, it is because no known cure exists through unlimiting other cards... that we consider punishment. We have exhausted all other options, both of the mental and practical sorts.

 

In short, yes, I've run all the observations already, and no, there's no way to fix this without cutting something.

 

It is smart to consider the Synchros themselves, but the harsh reality here is that even the tamer Synchros are outlandish through this, barring Magical Android and Arms Aid, which have nearly no reason to be used anyway.

 

You are welcome to run the observations yourself.

 

Then I could draw comparisons with Lonefire Blossom > any Plant you so choose.

 

First of all, prove it.

 

... by postin' record after record of matches under the banner of this list. The only way to guarantee such. Fine, then, I'll do so in due course.

 

You banned Arcana Force 0 - The Fool, Marshmallon, Armed Samurai - Ben Kei, Spirit Reaper, and Mirror Force.

 

None of those cards should be banned.

 

Reaper, The Fool, and Marshmallon are there due to what they do best: stay immune from battle forevermore. Essentially, they block attacks - and, by extension, Battle Damage - a la Swords of Revealing Light stretched through infinity, with the only weakness of havin' to bow before tramplers and direct attackers.

 

Mirror Force is an unholy +(insert number here) that gives too much of an advantage to your opponent.

 

Armed Samurai - Ben-Kei is nothin' more than an OTK.

 

Wave-Motion Cannon? Honestly?

 

It's an OTK when it goes off.

[AuraMaster]

what is the point of hypothetical ban lists??

[Tabris]

Konami's banlists are janky.

[Orochi]

just 2 questions:

 

 

why ban mediocre card like the fool??

 

 

why do you think is better to triplicate forbidden cards to get a "balanced" meta??

[Guest Star]

Konami's banlists are janky.

 

So is this list, though.

[CrabHelmet]

It's a 1-card OTK that doesn't even require any sort of graveyard setup. You draw Summon Priest and declare victory; it's as simple as that. How on earth is a 1-card OTK not a problem?

 

Then I'll drive the nail on Dark Dive Bomber's coffin. Easy as splat.

 

That's a step in the right direction.

 

It helps that Dark Dive Bomber is pretty much built to OTK. Its effect may as well read "Activate only while you control another really big monster. You win the duel."

 

Regardless of the other legal cards' date=' it is viewed as problematic to be able to convert one single card into one Synchro of any level equal to or greater than 4, but less than 7. Doing so while thinning the deck and prepping the Grave only adds to the lustre of the play. Namely, it is because no known cure exists through unlimiting other cards... that we consider punishment. We have exhausted all other options, both of the mental and practical sorts.

 

In short, yes, I've run all the observations already, and no, there's no way to fix this without cutting something.

 

It is smart to consider the Synchros themselves, but the harsh reality here is that even the tamer Synchros are outlandish through this, barring Magical Android and Arms Aid, which have nearly no reason to be used anyway.

 

You are welcome to run the observations yourself.[/i']

 

Then I could draw comparisons with Lonefire Blossom > any Plant you so choose.

 

Yes, you could. However, there are some key distinctions:

 

1) A Type is fundamentally different from a Card Type.

 

2) The Main Deck is fundamentally different from the Extra Deck.

 

First of all' date=' prove it.[/i']

 

... by postin' record after record of matches under the banner of this list. The only way to guarantee such. Fine, then, I'll do so in due course.

 

I'd be far more interested in your response to "second of all".

 

You banned Arcana Force 0 - The Fool' date=' Marshmallon, Armed Samurai - Ben Kei, Spirit Reaper, and Mirror Force.

 

None of those cards should be banned.[/i']

 

Reaper, The Fool, and Marshmallon are there due to what they do best: stay immune from battle forevermore. Essentially, they block attacks - and, by extension, Battle Damage - a la Swords of Revealing Light stretched through infinity, with the only weakness of havin' to bow before tramplers and direct attackers.

 

Gellenduo does the same. Its you-take-damage-you-die effect has three main ways of activating:

 

1) Direct attackers... which bypass Marshmallon/Reaper/Fool as well, and don't care about having attacks blocked.

 

2) Tramplers... which bypass Marshmallon/Reaper/Fool as well, and don't care about having attacks blocked.

 

3) Burn effects... which bypass Marshmallon/Reaper/Fool as well, and are far more common in decks that don't care about having their attacks blocked.

 

By keeping Gellenduo at 3 but banning Marshmallon/Reaper/Fool, you are saying that decks should not be required to run monster removal, but that they should be required to run either monster removal or burn.

 

Taro is the same: by keeping him around, you are saying that decks should not be required to run monster removal, but that they should be required to run either monster removal or another type of removal that counts as a destruction effect.

 

Wave-Motion Cannon? Honestly?

 

It's an OTK when it goes off.

 

Wave-Stationary Cannon

[Continuous Spell Card]

During your Main Phase' date=' you can send this card to the Graveyard to inflict 100 points of damage to your opponent for each of your Standby Phases that have passed since this card was activated.

 

It's an OTK when it goes off. Banworthy? If not, then the problem is not that it can OTK; rather, it is a matter of degree. In that case, what is the highest number that would be acceptable? 200? 500? 800?

 

And while we're at it:

 

Particle-Motion Cannon

[[i']Continuous Spell Card]

During each of your Standby Phases, inflict 1000 points of damage to your opponent's Life Points.

 

It can't OTK. Should it be at 3? If not, would a "Particle-Stationary Cannon" that only inflicts 100 damage per turn be acceptable? Where is the cutoff?

 

And what about Satellite Laser?

 

why do you think is better to triplicate forbidden cards to get a "balanced" meta??

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Learn to type.

[Tabris]

why ban mediocre card like the fool??

 

Why do I ban, say, Self-Destruct Button, or Life Equalizer, or Chimeratech Overdragon?

 

...

 

...

 

...

 

Exactly. I'm not a knee-jerk meta-responsive idiot.

 

why do you think is better to triplicate forbidden cards to get a "balanced" meta??

 

Didn't understand.

 

Yes, you could. However, there are some key distinctions:

 

1) A Type is fundamentally different from a Card Type.

 

2) The Main Deck is fundamentally different from the Extra Deck.

 

True dat. But while we're at it, I could also compare this with, say, Iron Chain Repairman (costless, continuous Synchro engine, fetchin' Iron Chain Coil to summon Black Rose Dragon), Junk Synchron (nets LV1 and LV2 Tuners in general).

 

It's an OTK when it goes off. Banworthy? If not, then the problem is not that it can OTK; rather, it is a matter of degree. In that case, what is the highest number that would be acceptable? 200? 500? 800?

 

It can't OTK. Should it be at 3? If not, would a "Particle-Stationary Cannon" that only inflicts 100 damage per turn be acceptable? Where is the cutoff?

 

The Rubicon... I'll admit this: I can't answer the queries posed easily, so I'll just have to go with this: a banworthy emulator of W-MC is one that could burn at the fastest possible time without unduly compromisin' negation/removal that could take it out. As such, anythin' surpassin' the 1000 LP barrier set by W-MC is banworthy, as well as anythin' that could finish games in a little more time than the time it takes for W-MC to burn through 8000 LP.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

So what your saying is that Wave Motion Cannon being too much was a completely arbitrary decision?

[CrabHelmet]

Yes' date=' you could. However, there are some key distinctions:

 

1) A Type is fundamentally different from a Card Type.

 

2) The Main Deck is fundamentally different from the Extra Deck.[/i']

 

True dat. But while we're at it, I could also compare this with, say, Iron Chain Repairman (costless, continuous Synchro engine, fetchin' Iron Chain Coil to summon Black Rose Dragon), Junk Synchron (nets LV1 and LV2 Tuners in general).

 

Those at least require setup, as you must prepare your Graveyard in advance.

 

It's an OTK when it goes off. Banworthy? If not' date=' then the problem is not that it can OTK; rather, it is a matter of degree. In that case, what is the highest number that would be acceptable? 200? 500? 800?[/i']

 

It can't OTK. Should it be at 3? If not, would a "Particle-Stationary Cannon" that only inflicts 100 damage per turn be acceptable? Where is the cutoff?

 

The Rubicon... I'll admit this: I can't answer the queries posed easily, so I'll just have to go with this: a banworthy emulator of W-MC is one that could burn at the fastest possible time without unduly compromisin' negation/removal that could take it out. As such, anythin' surpassin' the 1000 LP barrier set by W-MC is banworthy, as well as anythin' that could finish games in a little more time than the time it takes for W-MC to burn through 8000 LP.

 

Just consider "Particle-Wave Cannon" for a moment. Banworthy?

[The Crimson King]

I don't see the point of discussing a banlist that seems to fail, and is never going to be around anyway.

[CrabHelmet]

I don't see the point of discussing a banlist that seems to fail' date=' and is never going to be around anyway.

[/quote']

 

I don't see the point in discussing your inability to see the point in discussing a banlist.

[Tabris]

I don't see the point of discussing a banlist that seems to fail' date=' and is never going to be around anyway.

[/quote']

 

Right. And you're here in a card making site, one that doesn't submit its products to Konami. What are you here for, if you aren't goin' to get anythin' monetarily satisfyin' from your excursions here?

 

Nice one.

[The Crimson King]

I don't see the point of discussing a banlist that seems to fail' date=' and is never going to be around anyway.

[/quote']

 

I don't see the point in discussing your inability to see the point in discussing a banlist.

All right, so I guess that I'm not much good at discussing randomly created banlists.

[Tabris]

Those at least require setup, as you must prepare your Graveyard in advance.

 

+ scratches bloody head +

 

Emergency Teleport? Doesn't even require a Normal Summon - all it needs is another monster.

 

+ scratches bloody head again +

 

Just consider "Particle-Wave Cannon" for a moment. Banworthy?

 

What Particle-Wave Cannon?

---

I don't see the point of discussing a banlist that seems to fail' date=' and is never going to be around anyway.

[/quote']

 

I don't see the point in discussing your inability to see the point in discussing a banlist.

All right, so I guess that I'm not much good at discussing randomly created banlists.

 

Yeah, like weeks of playtestin' - not to mention a year and a half of swimming in a particular banlist mindset - is oh-so-"random".

[CrabHelmet]

Those at least require setup' date=' as you must prepare your Graveyard in advance.[/i']

 

+ scratches bloody head +

 

Emergency Teleport? Doesn't even require a Normal Summon - all it needs is another monster.

 

+ scratches bloody head again +

 

You're at least paying two cards for one Synchro Monster that way.

 

Just consider "Particle-Wave Cannon" for a moment. Banworthy?

 

What Particle-Wave Cannon?

 

My mistake' date=' I meant Particle-Motion Cannon.

 

Particle-Motion Cannon

[[i']Continuous Spell Card]

During each of your Standby Phases, inflict 1000 points of damage to your opponent's Life Points.

 

Also:

 

Gellenduo does the same. Its you-take-damage-you-die effect has three main ways of activating:

 

1) Direct attackers... which bypass Marshmallon/Reaper/Fool as well' date=' and don't care about having attacks blocked.

 

2) Tramplers... which bypass Marshmallon/Reaper/Fool as well, and don't care about having attacks blocked.

 

3) Burn effects... which bypass Marshmallon/Reaper/Fool as well, and are far more common in decks that don't care about having their attacks blocked.

 

By keeping Gellenduo at 3 but banning Marshmallon/Reaper/Fool, you are saying that decks should not be required to run monster removal, but that they should be required to run either monster removal or burn.

 

Taro is the same: by keeping him around, you are saying that decks should not be required to run monster removal, but that they should be required to run either monster removal or another type of removal that counts as a destruction effect.

[/quote']

 

Second of all' date=' if this claim is true, it merely makes Judgment Dragoon even more banworthy. Without this claim, it does nothing but provide skillless lucksack victories to a deck that itself takes no skill to run. With this claim, it does nothing but provide skillless lucksack victories to badly-built versions of a deck that itself takes no skill to run.

[/quote']

[Megaworm]

another fake banned list? :|

 

Mirror Force and All-Out Attacks should not be on there.

 

Mirror Force only obliterates Face-Up Attack Position monsters. All-Out Attacks is a little bit like a Final Attack Orders with a Require-To-Attack basis.

 

Imperial Iron Wall also shouldn't be on there.

[system lord of fortune]

i do agree with banning wave motion cannon!!

[Tabris]

another fake banned list? :|

 

Mirror Force and All-Out Attacks should not be on there.

 

Mirror Force only obliterates Face-Up Attack Position monsters. All-Out Attacks is a little bit like a Final Attack Orders with a Require-To-Attack basis.

 

Imperial Iron Wall also shouldn't be on there.

 

Wait - you're banned again? Jeez.

 

Mirror Force swings the game in your favor a tad too much.

 

All-Out Attacks has an OTK - no, two: one with Ojama Trio, the other with... I forgot. Can someone remind me of that other OTK?

 

Iron Wall is in there for the same reason AOA is in here.

[Seta]

SNIPE HUNTER

 

Now I laugh at my brothers head.

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

SNIPE HUNTER

 

Now I laugh at my brothers head.

 

Snipe Hunter is banworthy.

 

All-Out Attacks has an OTK - no' date=' two: one with Ojama Trio, the other with... I forgot. Can someone remind me of that other OTK?

 

Iron Wall is in there for the same reason AOA is in here.

[/quote']

 

I think the OTK your thinking of is the Mokey Mokey OTK. AOA + Mokey-Mokey Smackdown + Ojama Trio + Mokey Mokey.

 

Its either that or the Ultimate Tyranno OTK. I think Tyranno has 2 OTKs. One with AOA and the other with Final Attack Orders.

[Seta]

Yes, it is, but my brother uses it.

[CrabHelmet]

All-Out Attacks has an OTK - no' date=' two: one with Ojama Trio, the other with... I forgot. Can someone remind me of that other OTK?

 

Iron Wall is in there for the same reason AOA is in here.

[/quote']

 

I think the OTK your thinking of is the Mokey Mokey OTK. AOA + Mokey-Mokey Smackdown + Ojama Trio + Mokey Mokey.

 

Its either that or the Ultimate Tyranno OTK. I think Tyranno has 2 OTKs. One with AOA and the other with Final Attack Orders.

 

I would have thought that he was referring to the Morphing Jar #2 loop. I don't see how this would work with Ultimate Tyranno.

 

On the subject of Imperial Iron Wall: the problem with dealing with OTK's is that there are simply too bloody many OTK's to deal with. Sure, kill Elma, and sure, kill Exchange, and sure, kill Ben Kei, but what about Saturn + Sanctuary + IRS + Celestial + Poison of the Old Man? Is it really worth getting rid of one of the components of that combo in order to stop the OTK? The answer is probably "no".

 

There are simply too many OTK's in existence for us to handle each and every one of them, and if we were to attempt to do so we would doubtlessly damage the game by removing cards with other, valid uses. Hence, banning OTK's is only practical when one of two conditions holds true:

 

1) They can be traced to a single "culprit" card that has no real use outside of OTKing (All-Out Attacks, Great Maju Garzett, Return from the Different Dimension, and so on).

 

2) They have acquired sufficient consistency to become a serious problem.

 

I submit that Condition 1 does not apply here, as Royal Impregnable Fortress has valid use outside of the Tribute-to-Burn Card + Tuner + RIF + Quillbolt combo. However, though I have not done the playtesting myself, it seems very possible that Condition 2 does apply here, especially since only one of the cards involved (RIF itself) is unsearchable, and up to two of the other components (if the Tuner is Carrier) can be in the graveyard instead of in the hand. Thus, unless evidence emerges to the effect that this OTK would be sufficiently inconsistent, I would agree with Tabris's decision to ban RIF.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Don't forget you also need COSR for the OTK so it's still a three-card combo even if quillbolt/plague are in the graveyard.

[CrabHelmet]

Don't forget you also need COSR for the OTK so it's still a three-card combo even if quillbolt/plague are in the graveyard.

 

I posted the exact four-card combo I was talking abut, and COSR is banned on this list. Stop falling asleep while posting.

[Pharaoh_Atem]

Ipse dixit. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

 

 

The stance that "the present format cannot be used as evidence" is misleading and mistaken. Rather, all formats can be used as evidence; the evidence simply isn't convincing on its own. It requires immense support.

 

For example, we note that stat-based power creep and the prevalence of Special Summons are two main elements in years' worth of format problems; it is far less often that we see cards that fit the envelope of "you have an effect that should never, ever be possible" - rather, it's most often a mix of "hello, sorry, you need to be removed because your effect might be fine on something else, but not on you".

 

The main gripe you need to remember as a group is that when one uses all formats available to make a case, the case is much better than one that simply says "X is a problem right now, so let's kill it." The problem with saying "it doesn't matter whether X is a problem right now or not" is that players often take it too far and say "it never matters whether or not X is a problem right now" - you all need to be careful of taking it too far, as the conditions exist where a current problem card does deserve punishment, AND its existence as a present problem can actually be useful evidence.