Tabris Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Here's the list. I. Forbidden Cards ALL-OUT ATTACKSARCANA FORCE 0 - THE FOOLARCANA FORCE XXI – THE WORLDARMED SAMURAI – BEN-KEIBATTLE MANIABLACK LUSTER SOLDIER – ENVOY OF THE BEGINNINGBREAKER THE MAGICAL WARRIORBUTTERFLY DAGGER – ELMACALL OF THE HAUNTEDCARD OF SAFE RETURNCHANGE OF HEARTCHAOS EMPEROR DRAGON – ENVOY OF THE ENDCHAOS SORCERERCHIMERATECH OVERDRAGONCONFISCATIONCRUSH CARD VIRUSCYBER DRAGONCYBER JARCYBER-STEINCYBER TWIN DRAGONDARK ARMED DRAGONDARK HOLEDARK MAGICIAN OF CHAOSDECK DEVASTATION VIRUSDELINQUENT DUODEMISE, KING OF ARMAGEDDONDIMENSION FUSIONEVIL HERO DARK GAIAEXCHANGE OF THE SPIRITEXODIA THE FORBIDDEN ONEFIBER JARGORZ THE EMISSARY OF DARKNESSGRACEFUL CHARITYGREAT MAJU GARZETTHARPIE’S FEATHER DUSTERHEAVY STORMIMPERIAL IRON WALLIMPERIAL ORDERJINZOLAST TURNLAST WILLLIFE EQUALIZERLIMITER REMOVALMACHINE DUPLICATIONMAGE POWERMAGIC CYLINDERMAGICAL EXPLOSIONMAGICAL SCIENTISTMAKYURA THE DESTRUCTORMARSHMALLONMEGAMORPHMIRAGE OF NIGHTMAREMIRROR FORCEMORPHING JARMONSTER REBORNNOBLEMAN OF CROSSOUTPAINFUL CHOICEPOT OF GREEDPOWER BONDPREMATURE BURIALRAIGEKIRETURN FROM THE DIFFERENT DIMENSIONREVERSAL QUIZRING OF DESTRUCTIONSANGANSELF-DESTRUCT BUTTONSINISTER SERPENTSIXTH SENSESKY SCOURGE NORLERASSNATCH STEALSNIPE HUNTERSPIRIT REAPERSTARDUST DRAGON/ASSAULT MODETHE FORCEFUL SENTRYTHOUSAND-EYES RESTRICTTIME SEALTREEBORN FROGTRIBE-INFECTING VIRUSTSUKUYOMIULTIMATE OFFERINGUNITED WE STANDVICTORY DRAGONWAVE-MOTION CANNONWITCH OF THE BLACK FORESTYATA-GARASU NEW! – All-Out Attacks, Arcana Force 0 - The Fool, Arcana Force XXI – The World, Armed Samurai – Ben-Kei, Battle Mania, Breaker the Magical Warrior, Card of Safe Return, Chimeratech Overdragon, Crush Card Virus, Cyber Dragon, Cyber Twin Dragon, Dark Armed Dragon, Deck Devastation Virus, Demise, King of Armageddon, Evil Hero Dark Gaia, Exodia the Forbidden One, Gorz the Emissary of Darkness, Great Maju Garzett, Heavy Storm, Imperial Iron Wall, Jinzo, Life Equalizer, Limiter Removal, Machine Duplication, Mage Power, Magic Cylinder, Magical Explosion, Marshmallon, Megamorph, Mirror Force, Morphing Jar, Monster Reborn, Nobleman of Crossout, Power Bond, Return from the Different Dimension, Reversal Quiz, Sangan, Self-Destruct Button, Sky Scourge Norleras, Snipe Hunter, Spirit Reaper, Stardust Dragon/Assault Mode, Treeborn Frog, Ultimate Offering, United We Stand, Wave-Motion Cannon II. Limited Cards CHAIN STRIKEELEMENTAL HERO STRATOSGREEN BABOON, DEFENDER OF THE FORESTNIGHT ASSAILANTTWIN-HEADED BEHEMOTH NEW! – Chain Strike NEW! – The following cards are no longer Limited: Advanced Ritual Art, Book of Moon, Brain Control, Card Destruction, Card Trooper, Cathedral of Nobles, Ceasefire, D.D. Warrior Lady, Dandylion, Destiny Hero – Disk Commander, Fissure, Foolish Burial, Future Fusion, Gold Sarcophagus, Giant Trunade, Gravity Bind, Judgment Dragon, Left Arm of the Forbidden One, Left Leg of the Forbidden One, Level Limit – Area B, Magician of Faith, Magical Stone Excavation, Manticore of Darkness, Mask of Darkness, Metamorphosis, Mind Crush, Monster Gate, Mystical Space Typhoon, Necroface, Neo-Spacian Grand Mole, Ojama Trio, Overload Fusion, Phantom of Chaos, Raiza the Storm Monarch, Reasoning, Rescue Cat, Right Arm of the Forbidden One, Right Leg of the Forbidden One, Scapegoat, Smashing Ground, Summon Priest, Swords of Revealing Light, The Transmigration Prophecy, Torrential Tribute, Trap Dustshoot, Wall of Revealing Light I haven't tested potential combos with Makyura and Cathedral of Nobles as of yet. Pf the builds tested, Gladiator Beasts, Lightsworn (without JD), and Black Garden get Tier 1, with Hopeless Dragon, Crystal Beasts, Ojamas, and Elemental Hero Fusions in hot pursuit. Discuss and flame away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Judgment Dragon Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Prove Mirror Force's placement. That's all I feel like pointing out for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabris Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Too easy. Mirror Force's an ignobly brutal way of sayin', "WE WILL... WE WILL... funk YOU!" It destroys the attackin' monster, as well as all other monsters hapless enough to be in Attack Position, thus basically handin' over (the control of) the match to your opponent. What's more brutal than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SephirothKirby Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Banned Magical Cylinder? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabris Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 It blocks an attack AND inflicts damage equal to its ATK. Easy as pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Judgment Dragon Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Too easy. Mirror Force's an ignobly brutal way of sayin'' date=' "WE WILL... WE WILL... f*** YOU!" It destroys the attackin' monster, as well as all other monsters hapless enough to be in Attack Position, thus basically handin' over (the control of) the match to your opponent. What's more brutal than that?[/quote'] If it were at 3 that statement would be quite true. At 0, players can overextend with no fear of losing their monsters as a result. Overextension as you should know is bad play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabris Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Here's a query, then: Why is overextension a bad play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Judgment Dragon Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Here's a query' date=' then: Why is overextension a bad play?[/quote'] Easy. You recklessly throw away hand advantage. Its moreso skilless play. Almost at the same level as Dark Armed Dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PikaPerson01 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 So it's a TCG + OCG list? With Proto-Cyber Dragon still legal, doesn't that turn it into a huge nuke against machine decks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabris Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 ... in much the same way as settin' S/Ts in the absence of Heavy Storm is skilless play, as it relegates hand advantage to the side. I've no problem with measures to deal with overextension, really. Problem is, Mirror Force is not the right way to do such, for the reasons I outlined. Sakuretsu, Dimensional Prison, Lightning Vortex - those are cards that wipe out broodin' overextension without unnecessarily givin' too much advantage to its user.So it's a TCG + OCG list? With Proto-Cyber Dragon still legal' date=' doesn't that turn it into a huge nuke against machine decks?[/quote'] What's "it"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Judgment Dragon Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 So it's a TCG + OCG list? With Proto-Cyber Dragon still legal' date=' doesn't that turn it into a huge nuke against machine decks?[/quote'] What's "it"? I think PikaPerson is talking about Chimeratech Fortress Dragon. The OP'd type killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabris Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Chimeratech Fortress Dragon? Ah, yes, that. I haven't actually tested if it indeed is a banworthy Type-killer or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 3 Summon Priest3 Rescue Cat3 X-Saber Airbellum3 Dark Dive BomberNo itemsFox onlyFinal Destination Seriously, the whole Rescue Cat = any Level 4, 5, or 6 Synchro Monster thing (and, by extension, the Summon Priest + 1 Spell = any Synchro Monster thing) is questionable enough even without the 1-card OTK. Here's a query' date=' then: Why is overextension a bad play?[/quote'] By definition. If it doesn't have the risk of blowing up in your face, it is merely extension. Without mass removal cards like Heavy Storm, overextension in the Spell/Trap zone ceases to exist; the optimal strategy is simply to mindlessly extend as far as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SephirothKirby Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Also, what makes Dark Armed Dragon so bad, but not Judgment Dragon? I'd say he's the better of the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho Shocker Android Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Makyura and cathedral stay banned. makyura + limit reverse + chick the yellow = loleasywinspecially with all the traps that let you draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Also' date=' what makes Dark Armed Dragon so bad, but not Judgment Dragon? I'd say he's the better of the two.[/quote'] On the topic of Judgment Dragoon: I submit that the fact that it can only be used in a deck that relies heavily on random chance but practically plays itself actually makes it more banworthy, at it literally has no use whatsoever other than to provide Luck-fueled victories. Makyura and cathedral stay banned. makyura + limit reverse + chick the yellow = loleasywinspecially with all the traps that let you draw. Theoretically, if Makyura were shown to be acceptable notwithstanding its OTK combo with Chick, and if it were further shown to contribute more to the game than Chick does, one could conceivably ban Chick to save Makyura. (However, I consider this preposterous, especially since I can't see Makyura contributing anything good to the game that Cathedral can't.) Cathedral does not support the OTK, so it could come back. The only potential problem is that it could provide a large amount of deck thinning with Jars, Legacies, Recklesses, and Accumulateds; however, this could be seen as the fault of Accumulated, and possibly even Reckless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho Shocker Android Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Also' date=' what makes Dark Armed Dragon so bad, but not Judgment Dragon? I'd say he's the better of the two.[/quote'] On the topic of Judgment Dragoon: I submit that the fact that it can only be used in a deck that relies heavily on random chance but practically plays itself actually makes it more banworthy, at it literally has no use whatsoever other than to provide Luck-fueled victories. Makyura and cathedral stay banned. makyura + limit reverse + chick the yellow = loleasywinspecially with all the traps that let you draw. Theoretically' date=' if Makyura were shown to be acceptable notwithstanding its OTK combo with Chick, and if it were further shown to contribute more to the game than Chick does, one could conceivably ban Chick to save Makyura. (However, I consider this preposterous, especially since I can't see Makyura contributing anything good to the game that Cathedral can't.) Cathedral does not support the OTK, so it could come back. The only potential problem is that it could provide a large amount of deck thinning with Jars, Legacies, Recklesses, and Accumulateds; however, this could be seen as the fault of Accumulated, and possibly even Reckless.[/quote'] you think too muchit's easier to just ban these 2 in this case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Also' date=' what makes Dark Armed Dragon so bad, but not Judgment Dragon? I'd say he's the better of the two.[/quote'] On the topic of Judgment Dragoon: I submit that the fact that it can only be used in a deck that relies heavily on random chance but practically plays itself actually makes it more banworthy, at it literally has no use whatsoever other than to provide Luck-fueled victories. Makyura and cathedral stay banned. makyura + limit reverse + chick the yellow = loleasywinspecially with all the traps that let you draw. Theoretically' date=' if Makyura were shown to be acceptable notwithstanding its OTK combo with Chick, and if it were further shown to contribute more to the game than Chick does, one could conceivably ban Chick to save Makyura. (However, I consider this preposterous, especially since I can't see Makyura contributing anything good to the game that Cathedral can't.) Cathedral does not support the OTK, so it could come back. The only potential problem is that it could provide a large amount of deck thinning with Jars, Legacies, Recklesses, and Accumulateds; however, this could be seen as the fault of Accumulated, and possibly even Reckless.[/quote'] you think too muchit's easier to just ban these 2 in this case sorry dude i forgot dat not thinkin alwaiz gives teh best rezultzzzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PikaPerson01 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 So it's a TCG + OCG list? With Proto-Cyber Dragon still legal' date=' doesn't that turn it into a huge nuke against machine decks?[/quote'] What's "it"? What Judgment Dragon said. A card that requires no deck space and only one card (Proto) in side deck to completely neutralize an entire deck type... as a cost. Warrior Elimination and Last Day of Witch don't summon a 2000+ Beatstick. The only potential problem is that it could provide a large amount of deck thinning with Jars, Legacies, Recklesses, and Accumulateds; however, this could be seen as the fault of Accumulated, and possibly even Reckless. In a format without Exodia and without big game breaking one card OTKs, is a little extra drawing such a huge problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabris Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Seriously, the whole Rescue Cat = any Level 4, 5, or 6 Synchro Monster thing (and, by extension, the Summon Priest + 1 Spell = any Synchro Monster thing) is questionable enough even without the 1-card OTK. ... if Dark Dive Bomber is problematic (I'm still checkin' on its banworthiness), I'll ban it (and not Airbellum as you want). About the whole ruckus on Cat > Airbellum + random LV1-3 Beast > Goyo (at best), as well as the ruckus on Summon Priest and some random LV4 Tuner, I won't do a thing about it. Not a one, unless someone shows me why summoning Synchros (within Priest's or Cat's range) deserves attention (unless, of course, the Synchros themselves are at fault). By definition. If it doesn't have the risk of blowing up in your face, it is merely extension. Without mass removal cards like Heavy Storm, overextension in the Spell/Trap zone ceases to exist; the optimal strategy is simply to mindlessly extend as far as possible. Of course I support measures to combat such. The problem is of such unguarded mass removal like that of Heavy Storm and Mirror Force. On the topic of Judgment Dragoon: I submit that the fact that it can only be used in a deck that relies heavily on random chance but practically plays itself actually makes it more banworthy, at it literally has no use whatsoever other than to provide Luck-fueled victories. That I see. Primary problem is of decklists: Lightsworn without Judgment Dragon function better than Lightsworn with JD. What Judgment Dragon said. A card that requires no deck space and only one card (Proto) in side deck to completely neutralize an entire deck type... as a cost. Warrior Elimination and Last Day of Witch don't summon a 2000+ Beatstick. ... which is why I said I will test it in due course, if Fortress Dragon's effect really is a problem, a discriminant against a Type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Really, it's a generic metabomb list. Mirror Force is a bit different, and so is Disk, but other than that, it's pretty playable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Why ban Ben-Kei?(I know thares a reason, I'm just not getting it...) And you un-limited Neo-Spacian Grand Mole?YAY! NOW GIANT RAT CAN BE MORE ANNOYING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Why ban Ben-Kei?(I know thares a reason' date=' I'm just not getting it...) And you un-limited Neo-Spacian Grand Mole?YAY! NOW GIANT RAT CAN BE MORE ANNOYING![/quote'] Prove that Neo-Spacian Grand Mole at 3 is damaging to the game. The way I see it, Mole is just a one-per-turn 1 for 1 monster removal at the cost of your Normal Summon. Therefor, it isn't that big of a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 ... if Dark Dive Bomber is problematic (I'm still checkin' on its banworthiness)' date=' I'll ban it (and not Airbellum as you want).[/quote'] It's a 1-card OTK that doesn't even require any sort of graveyard setup. You draw Summon Priest and declare victory; it's as simple as that. How on earth is a 1-card OTK not a problem? For comparison, let's see what else you've tackled with the banlist: You've banned Return from the Different Dimension, a 1-card OTK that needs to be Set for a turn and requires you to have set up your RFP in advance. You've banned Dimension Fusion, a 1-card OTK that needs you to have set up your RFP in advance without dropping to 2000 Life Points and while keeping your opponent's RFP clear. You've banned Last Turn, which needs a Special Summon-blocker to OTK and requires you to have dropped your own Life Points. You've banned Imperial Iron Wall, one element of a 4-card OTK. You've banned Wave-Motion Cannon, a 1-card OTK that is really an 8TK and which is ruined by any form of spell/trap removal. You've Limited Night Assailant, a 2-card combo that merely bypasses certain costs. You've banned Power Bond, which cannot be used at all outside of a 3-card combo - or possibly even a larger combo. You've banned Battlemania, which requires elaborate (generally 3-card) combos to use. You've banned All-Out Attacks, which also requires elaborate (generally 3-card) combos to use. You've banned Great Maju Garzett, which does nothing unless you've already set yourself up with a big beatstick. ...and you've left a 1-card OTK that requires no setup untouched. About the whole ruckus on Cat > Airbellum + random LV1-3 Beast > Goyo (at best)' date=' as well as the ruckus on Summon Priest and some random LV4 Tuner, I won't do a thing about it. Not a one, unless someone shows me why summoning Synchros (within Priest's or Cat's range) deserves attention (unless, of course, the Synchros themselves are at fault).[/quote'] Normally I would explain here, but someone else has already written the explanation more eloquently than I would be able to. Regardless of the other legal cards' date=' it is viewed as problematic to be able to convert one single card into one Synchro of any level equal to or greater than 4, but less than 7. Doing so while thinning the deck and prepping the Grave only adds to the lustre of the play. Namely, it is because no known cure exists through unlimiting other cards... that we consider punishment. We have exhausted all other options, both of the mental and practical sorts. In short, yes, I've run all the observations already, and no, there's no way to fix this without cutting something. It is smart to consider the Synchros themselves, but the harsh reality here is that even the tamer Synchros are outlandish through this, barring Magical Android and Arms Aid, which have nearly no reason to be used anyway. You are welcome to run the observations yourself.[/quote'] And before people cry ipse-dixit, I'm not quoting him because if-Atem-says-so-it-must-be-right; I'm quoting him because the argument is perfectly rational. By definition. If it doesn't have the risk of blowing up in your face' date=' it is merely extension. Without mass removal cards like Heavy Storm, overextension in the Spell/Trap zone ceases to exist; the optimal strategy is simply to mindlessly extend as far as possible.[/i'] Of course I support measures to combat such. The problem is of such unguarded mass removal like that of Heavy Storm and Mirror Force. I actually don't mind seeing Mirror Force gone so much, since there are still plenty of mass monster removal cards in existence, like Lightning Vortex and Torrential Tribute. Heavy Storm, however, is another story, as it is the only real mass spell and trap removal available (short of pulling in garbage like Straight Flush that will obviously be ineffective). Without it, there is no such thing as spell/trap overextension. On the topic of Judgment Dragoon: I submit that the fact that it can only be used in a deck that relies heavily on random chance but practically plays itself actually makes it more banworthy' date=' at it literally has no use whatsoever other than to provide Luck-fueled victories.[/i'] That I see. Primary problem is of decklists: Lightsworn without Judgment Dragon function better than Lightsworn with JD. First of all, prove it. Second of all, if this claim is true, it merely makes Judgment Dragoon even more banworthy. Without this claim, it does nothing but provide skillless lucksack victories to a deck that itself takes no skill to run. With this claim, it does nothing but provide skillless lucksack victories to badly-built versions of a deck that itself takes no skill to run. The only potential problem is that it could provide a large amount of deck thinning with Jars' date=' Legacies, Recklesses, and Accumulateds; however, this could be seen as the fault of Accumulated, and possibly even Reckless.[/quote'] In a format without Exodia and without big game breaking one card OTKs, is a little extra drawing such a huge problem? This is actually one of those cases where testing would actually make sense, but again, I doubt it would be much of a problem - especially considering that the draw power offered by Disk Commander isn't considered a problem by Tabris's standards. Why ban Ben-Kei?(I know thares a reason' date=' I'm just not getting it...)[/quote'] It OTK's, it OTK's, it OTK's more easily than ever thanks to Arms Hole, it OTK's, it has no use other than OTKing, and it OTK's. Next question? And you un-limited Neo-Spacian Grand Mole?YAY! NOW GIANT RAT CAN BE MORE ANNOYING! The day I ban a card for being annoying will be a warm day in Norse hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Star Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Ok, I didn't look at the whole list, but some of the things I noticed are horrible. You banned Arcana Force 0 - The Fool, Marshmallon, Armed Samurai - Ben Kei, Spirit Reaper, and Mirror Force. None of those cards should be banned. EDIT: Wave-Motion Cannon? Honestly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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