Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 T-Drag on Pojo mentioned a Burn OTK. Can anyone enlighten me as to what Burn OTK he had in mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 T-Drag on Pojo mentioned a Burn OTK. Can anyone enlighten me as to what Burn OTK he had in mind? The only explanation I can think of is that he's worried that Chainburn would become "too good" if it had a few Jars of Greed in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho Shocker Android Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 This would be horrible, chain burn could FTK with a bit of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 This would be horrible' date=' chain burn could FTK with a bit of luck.[/quote'] The Agent of Judgment - Saturn could FTK with a bit of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 T-Drag on Pojo mentioned a Burn OTK. Can anyone enlighten me as to what Burn OTK he had in mind? The only explanation I can think of is that he's worried that Chainburn would become "too good" if it had a few Jars of Greed in it. I can't see it happening, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to do a bit of testing, at least with opening hands and crap. If Chainburn hopes to do anything with the Jars and crap it's going to need to draw Cathedral 1st-2nd turn, and then hope that it doesn't have a hand full of burn without draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolfjedi Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 it's banned because there are to many "what if this trap/ comes out", and konami doesn't want to deal with them, simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 T-Drag on Pojo mentioned a Burn OTK. Can anyone enlighten me as to what Burn OTK he had in mind? The only explanation I can think of is that he's worried that Chainburn would become "too good" if it had a few Jars of Greed in it. I can't see it happening' date=' but I guess it wouldn't hurt to do a bit of testing, at least with opening hands and crap. If Chainburn hopes to do anything with the Jars and crap it's going to need to draw Cathedral 1st-2nd turn, and then hope that it doesn't have a hand full of burn without draw.[/quote'] Throw in the fact that Cathedral is a -1, that each additional Cathedral drawn is an utterly dead card in a deck that isn't even fond of effects that require discard costs, that Chain Strike should be at 1, that one could make a case for Accumulated Fortune or Reckless Greed being a problem if Chainburn somehow still seemed to be a problem, and that the Jars of Greed and whatnot added to improve consistency slightly in the 40% of games in which you open with Cathedral will slow you down in the 60% of games in which you don't, and you end up with an anti-Cathedral argument that rivals Jesus in terms of holiness. it's banned because there are to many "what if this trap/ comes out"' date=' and konami doesn't want to deal with them, simple as that.[/quote'] First of all, is this board really so stupid that it thinks Konami's motivations are worthy of actual discussion? Secondarily, since when does Konami have the foresight to prepare years in advance for hypothetical cards that it can decide not to release anyhow? Sixth and lastly, didn't Chaos Pudding just make a topic about this sort of comment ten minutes ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Sixth and lastly' date=' didn't Chaos Pudding just make a topic about this sort of comment ten minutes ago?[/quote'] I actually made it preemptively, just to stop that sort of comment. How do I predicted better than Konami can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho Shocker Android Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 This would be horrible' date=' chain burn could FTK with a bit of luck.[/quote'] The Agent of Judgment - Saturn could FTK with a bit of luck. The amount of luck required for chain burn to FTK with cathedral of the nobles (or STK) is very small compared to the enormous odds against a deck using Saturn. We can't have a deck that can kill any deck within 2 turns. You know, back in the days, magical scientist could FTK with a bit of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 This would be horrible' date=' chain burn could FTK with a bit of luck.[/quote'] The Agent of Judgment - Saturn could FTK with a bit of luck. The amount of luck required for chain burn to FTK with cathedral of the nobles (or STK) is very small compared to the enormous odds against a deck using Saturn. We can't have a deck that can kill any deck within 2 turns. You know, back in the days, magical scientist could FTK with a bit of luck. Firstly, prove that FTK/STK with Cathedral is in any way consistant. Secondly, not only could Magical Scientist FTK with a bit of luck back in the day, it could FTK if your name was Lelouch and you were playing against Schneizel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 This would be horrible' date=' chain burn could FTK with a bit of luck.[/quote'] The Agent of Judgment - Saturn could FTK with a bit of luck. The amount of luck required for chain burn to FTK with cathedral of the nobles (or STK) is very small compared to the enormous odds against a deck using Saturn. We can't have a deck that can kill any deck within 2 turns. You know, back in the days, magical scientist could FTK with a bit of luck. Are you going to prove that Chainburn with Cathedral is capable of FTKing with enough consistency to be considered a problem, or do you intend to drag us into an "Oh no it isn't!" "Oh yes it is!" pantomime scene? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho Shocker Android Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 First, with cathedral you can activate cards such as jar of greed, legacy of yata garasu, reckless greed and accumulated fortune the turn you set them. (it's what cathedral does I shouldn't have to do this *sigh*...) This lets you build chain on your first turn by using these cards with burn cards such as secret barrel, chain strike, tremendous fire, etc. That leads to more burn/draw cards that can be used right away. The deck is full of those you just need to draw your cards in the right order to be able to inflict 8000 dmg in a short amount of turns (lets say 3 or less). You won't always kill that easily, it's just that cathedral makes the deck 1 or 2 turn faster just by enabling trap cards to be activated the turn they are set. Now we have to establish where such decks are a problem. Chain burn decks could kill on turn 3 quite often when they were first build (only talking about the TCG here). Now is making them faster by giving them cathedral any good? I don't think so. The reason those decks shouldn't exist is that they require little to no skill to play. You just draw your cards and hope for the best. (In fact lucksaking and stacking are probably the only skills required to play these decks) Now I can't calculate the odds to provide proofs that chain burn will be fast enough with cathedral. But with a bit of logic, one can easily agree that relinquishing 1 burn card for the possibility of activating trap cards the turn you set them, is good enough to inflict more damage in a shorter amount of time/turns. With that said and with the current/past speed of these decks I think cathedral should stay banned. Plus, as time pass there will only be more traps that burn or let you draw cards to use with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 First' date=' with cathedral you can activate cards such as jar of greed, legacy of yata garasu, reckless greed and accumulated fortune the turn you set them. (it's what cathedral does I shouldn't have to do this *sigh*...)[/quote'] This is self-evident and has already been acknowledged. Restating the effect of Cathedral of Nobles is unnecessary. This lets you build chain on your first turn by using these cards with burn cards such as secret barrel' date=' chain strike, tremendous fire, etc. That leads to more burn/draw cards that can be used right away. The deck is full of those you just need to draw your cards in the right order to be able to inflict 8000 dmg in a short amount of turns (lets say 3 or less). You won't always kill that easily, it's just that cathedral makes the deck 1 or 2 turn faster just by enabling trap cards to be activated the turn they are set.[/quote'] The only purpose that cards like Jar of Greed and Legacy of Yata-Garasu serve is to improve consistency through deckthinning, as unlike Destiny Draw and Solar Recharge they don't take other dead cards in your hand and replace them with random cards while setting up the graveyard. The problem is that Cathedral-Chainburn's design is filled with inconsistencies of its own. For a start, the probability of opening with Cathedral in your hand is only about 42%, and if you don't open with Cathedral your hand is almost certainly going to be less useful than you would get from a regular Chainburn deck, since your hand will contain your now-slow draw Traps instead of cards that can actually burn. Cathedral, incidentally, is completely unsearchable unless you're willing to resort to Different Dimension Capsule, and there really isn't much room for draw cards that aren't Traps unless you're willing to shoot yourself in the foot with Upstart Goblin and Hand Destruction. Once you do get Cathedral, you still need to actually get 8000 Life Points worth of burn cards. The problem is that almost all of your burn cards will be inflicting 1000 damage, which means that you'll need to turn your five remaining cards - remember, you just spent one, Cathedral itself - into eight burn cards. The biggest exception to the "about 1000" rule is Chain Strike itself. It's Limited, it caps at 2000 1600 (you're using a Spell/Trap zone on Cathedral), it requires you to still have a lot of useful cards when you need to sacrifice some hand size in order to meet Accumulated Fortune's activation requirements, and you're half as likely to draw it as you are to draw a second Cathedral, which will sit utterly dead in your hand. Reckless and Accumulated each give a bit of a hand size boost, but if you use Reckless then you're giving up your Draw Phases, which means that if you can't win that turn you're not going to win during your next two turns either, leaving you winning no sooner than Turn 4. It's perhaps a turn faster than it used to be, but the attempts to combat inconsistency end up introducing inconsistencies of their own. Now we have to establish where such decks are a problem. Chain burn decks could kill on turn 3 quite often when they were first build (only talking about the TCG here). Now is making them faster by giving them cathedral any good? I don't think so. The reason those decks shouldn't exist is that they require little to no skill to play. You just draw your cards and hope for the best. (In fact lucksaking and stacking are probably the only skills required to play these decks) Let's assume' date=' for argument's sake, that Chainburn is a problem with 3 Cathedral + 3 Jar + 3 Legacy + 3 Reckless + 3 Accumulated available. Now we come to a critical question: Are you sure Cathedral is the problem? Cathedral can be used in a variety of decktypes, whereas Accumulated Fortune can only be used in Chainburn and was designed solely for use in Chainburn, which we agree could probably be run effectively by the average regular on this forum and thus takes no skill whatsoever. If two cards are only a problem when used in conjunction with one another but one (and only one) card can only be used in a single unskilled lucksack decktype, then it follows that eliminating that card would be more sensible. Without Accumulated, your only draw card that's a +1 even in the short term is Reckless Greed, and using that precludes you from getting an automatic +1 during your Draw Phases, leaving you completely screwed if you don't win that very turn. However, as I said before, you need to give yourself about a +3 in order to have enough burn cards to win. The only way to do that would be to wait to use a Reckless or two after waiting an extra Draw Phase or two, in which case Cathedral isn't exactly speeding you up a whole lot, or using Cathedral with 3 Reckless, which a 4-card combo, three of whose parts are essentially unsearchable Limited cards, that does not in and of itself directly win the game. Plus, as time pass there will only be more traps that burn or let you draw cards to use with this. I'm going to overlook the let's-ban-cards-just-in-case-they-work-with-hypothetical-unconfirmed-future-cards thing here. Tell me, is Upstart Goblin broken? No? I thought not. But suppose these cards were also made: Upspartan Goblin[Continuous Spell Card]When you activate this card, increase your opponent's Life Points by 1000. During your Main Phase, you can send this card to the Graveyard to draw 1 card. Upfinish Goblin[Quick-Play Spell Card]Roll a die. Unless the result is 1 or 6, increase your opponent's Life Points by 1000 and draw 1 card. U.P.S. Tart Goblin[Normal Spell Card]Increase your opponent's Life Points by 1000. Reveal the top card of your deck to your opponent, then add it to your hand. Outsmart Goblin[WATER/Fiend/Effect/5/1100/100]By removing this card in your hand from play, increase your opponent's Life Points by 1000. The next time you activate a Normal Spell Card after using this effect, draw 1 card. Upstrategy Goblin[Normal Spell Card]Activate only while you control no face-down cards. Increase your opponent's Life Points by 1000, then draw 1 card. I'm too lazy to continue, but suppose an additional eight or so cards on top of these were created in the same vein. No individual card there, including Upstart Goblin, would be a problem on its own, but something would need to be done eventually to prune down the whole Upstart family, since otherwise we'd see decks consisting of 35 Goblins and 5 OTK-pieces-of-your-choice, or even just 37 Goblins and 3 Reficules. Until Konami announces that the next set is going to be called 1001 Goblainian Nights and confirms Upspartan Goblin for release, however, there is still no reason whatsoever to touch Upstart Goblin. By the same token, maybe Konami will make more Jar of Greed or Secret Barrel clones in the future, but that's still no need to ban Cathedral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarlet Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 In this meta laying trap cards the turn thy're set isn't too helpful, with only a few cards being ran and none of those cards working off one's own choices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 In this meta SRT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarlet Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 well crab if you'd continued reading there I was pointing out the reasons this car's banning is utter crap, I also will now go on to say that, in a more trap heavy meta, there MIGHT be reason to ban it, though even then it's not the most banworthy card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho Shocker Android Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 After some thoughts I would agree to bring this back if something's done to accumulated fortune. I'm not sure about the sp summon anything effect but having to give up serket plus this would require something similar to DAD for me to care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 well crab if you'd continued reading there I was pointing out the reasons this car's banning is utter crap' date=' I also will now go on to say that, in a more trap heavy meta, there MIGHT be reason to ban it, though even then it's not the most banworthy card[/quote'] The meta effects how good a card is. Not how banworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevalier Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Bad. If it was banned it had to be because of a loop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Bad. If it was banned it had to be because of a loop. No, it didn't have to be banned for any reason other than Konami's dartboard. No card is banned for any reason on Konami's list as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan LeFlay Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Good Goblin Housekeeping x3Jar of Greed x3Legacy of Yata-Garasu x3Reckless Greed x3Upstart Goblin x3Hand Destruction x3 etc.. With this card make the draw engine way too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Good Goblin Housekeeping x3Jar of Greed x3Legacy of Yata-Garasu x3Reckless Greed x3Upstart Goblin x3Hand Destruction x3 etc.. With this card make the draw engine way too much. First off, I lol'd at your comment at the end. Secondly, since we've already beaten down Chainburn, what exactly are you going to be drawing? Mind you, a good list has Exodia's Head banned, so none of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Bad. If it was banned it had to be because of a loop. No' date=' it didn't have to be banned for any reason other than Konami's dartboard. No card is banned for any reason on Konami's list as far as I'm concerned.[/quote'] You know that doesn't apply to every card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaworm Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Traps are slow, this needs to be at 3. The only thing to fear is CCV popping up before you get a chance to kill it while it's vulnerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Bad. If it was banned it had to be because of a loop. No' date=' it didn't have to be banned for any reason other than Konami's dartboard. No card is banned for any reason on Konami's list as far as I'm concerned.[/quote'] You know that doesn't apply to every card. Unless you have quotes from Konami, it might as well apply to every card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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