Official Pokemon Discussion. (The 5th gen starts now)

[Toffee.]

KING JELLYFISH IS OU?!

Do people /REALLY/ try to rely on his ability?

Seriously, it only seems like it works 20% of the time.

inb4noitsbecausehesawaterghostandhasanicemovepool

[burnpsy]

EDIT: @Arm: It's the typing. It kills Blaziken.

 

This argument isn't meaningless since people can make the same one on smogon to cause the powers that be to reverse this call.

 

The current discussion on Smogon is on banning the broken users of the abilities, not the ability.

 

Soul Dew clause. While we don't have soul dew atm, in the past we have had it and as such a precedent has been set that a clauses can be made that can't be seen. This means you could do that same thing for an ability clause. Also both Impulse and Tag can be seen so when you see it you can do the same thing should some one break the clause, refuse to play until the opponent surrender.

 

An alternate argument can be made for Soul Dew clause: Not only does Game Freak endorse it, but IIRC the Stadium games can outright ban it, just like it enforces Sleep Clause and Species Clause.

 

 

Yes I did. I said I know Grace would have that problem and as such wouldn't really work. The pokemon with Tag and and Impulse on the other hand do have other abilities so banning 1 of them wouldn't hurt them.

 

I was about to say "fair enough", then I remembered that Wobbuffet is a pushover this gen even with Shadow Tag because Encore was nerfed and there are many widespread things strong enough to OHKO it. Also, its other ability has not yet been released (and thus, by Smogon's implementation, does not exist). If the other Shadow Tag Pokemon are broken (if they eventually exist - we're still waiting for the box key item from HGSS and the Azure Flute, so it's not guaranteed), ban them.

 

 

And smogon hates evasion, and as such we already have a clause to kill it. Impulse side steps evasion clause, so it's easy to assume either that or the pokemon that get it will be moved to ubers. With that said I don't see it being good to ban the 7 pokemon that have it when simply banning the ability would work much better.

 

They did not ban Accupressure. Accupressure has the same problem.

[Flame Dragon]

The current discussion on Smogon is on banning the broken users of the abilities, not the ability.

But what if it's the abilitiy that is making them broken. Really, I don't think it matters who has Impulse since no matter what they can get +6 is most of their stats given enough time and the ability to use protect and sub (something the bulk of pokemon can do).

 

An alternate argument can be made for Soul Dew clause: Not only does Game Freak endorse it, but IIRC the Stadium games can outright ban it, just like it enforces Sleep Clause and Species Clause.

This is did not know.

 

I was about to say "fair enough", then I remembered that Wobbuffet is a pushover this gen even with Shadow Tag because Encore was nerfed and there are many widespread things strong enough to OHKO it. Also, its other ability has not yet been released (and thus, by Smogon's implementation, does not exist). If the other Shadow Tag Pokemon are broken (if they eventually exist - we're still waiting for the box key item from HGSS and the Azure Flute, so it's not guaranteed), ban them.

Does Wob really need more then 3 turns to kill it? While I'm sure there are several pokemon that can OHKO it not every pokemon is, so those pokemon are almost as good as dead since Wob just need to switch in and they can't do anything any more.

 

And yes, a shadow tag clause also wouldn't work since only Wob has I atm, and he only has that ability to use. But it is a safe bet that the others will come out at some time and this discussion will come up again.

 

This does leave Impulse though.

 

They did not ban Accupressure. Accupressure has the same problem.

Not really. The key difference between the two is that Sudden Impluse is an ability that goes off every turn so all you need to do is stall via protect/sub and you can quickly get the right boosts to make your pokemon untouchable. Accupressure makes you waste a turn leaving you open for an attack (assuming you aren't behind a sub) and even if you are odds are you'll only get one shot at a good boost before you become vunerable again.

 

 

 

In short, I know I lost the argument for Grace and Tag (pokemon have pokemon that only get that ability and banning the ability is the same as banning them). I do still think that Impulse can be hit with an ability clause though since it's a dream world only ability and it isn't the pokemon that are broken but the ability itself.

[burnpsy]

I agree that Impulse/Inconsistent is a bit ridiculous. I'm still wondering what's gonna happen there.

[Dark]

A few things.

 

Some Pokemon would suck ass without Shadow Tag. Unless the Shadow Tag Pokemon has insane defenses (or just an epic movepool, like Wobba), there is no reason to do any banning. Because so few broken Pokemon have Shadow Tag, you can just ban the Pokemon, not the ability.

 

By trying to ban Serene Grace, you are trying to remove all luck elements in the game. Sleep Clause was not put in to prevent luck, it is actually a detriment to strategy when you have scarfed Breloom Sporing everything. Banning Serene Grace on the logic that flinching too much is bad is as stupid as banning high critical-hit ratio moves because they get crits too often and are thus broken. A lot of Pokemon have Serene Grace that don't pose a serious threat (Togekiss, but she's still pretty awesome), so if you are so worried about Jirachi, tell Smogon it should be banned as opposed to the ability being banned.

 

In terms of Impulse, think of the abilitypool of Pokemon that get Impulse. From what I can tell, these Pokemon are normally very shitty (ie, Bibarel). Unless something like Metagross gets Impulse, there is no reason to worry. Bibarel getting Impulse just moves it from NU to OU, something you are not used to and by extension somewhat opposed to. That doesn't mean the ability itself is broken if shitty Pokemon get it.

 

Abilities should not be banned just as a singular move (outside of OHKO moves) cannot be banned. Smogon never thought to ban Spore because of its restricted movepool, and never thought to ban Dragon Dance because it wasn't a detriment to strategy. The same goes for Impulse and Serene Grace, respectively.

[Flame Dragon]

Some Pokemon would suck ass without Shadow Tag. Unless the Shadow Tag Pokemon has insane defenses (or just an epic movepool, like Wobba), there is no reason to do any banning. Because so few broken Pokemon have Shadow Tag, you can just ban the Pokemon, not the ability.

All a pokemon needs is a good STAB and decent attack. If it has those things it can come in on a pokemon weak to it and kill it. This means that 99% of the time a pokemon with Shadow Tag will always get a kill. Maybe more if you know how to play keep it alove.

 

By trying to ban Serene Grace, you are trying to remove all luck elements in the game. Sleep Clause was not put in to prevent luck, it is actually a detriment to strategy when you have scarfed Breloom Sporing everything. Banning Serene Grace on the logic that flinching too much is bad is as stupid as banning high critical-hit ratio moves because they get crits too often and are thus broken. A lot of Pokemon have Serene Grace that don't pose a serious threat (Togekiss, but she's still pretty awesome), so if you are so worried about Jirachi, tell Smogon it should be banned as opposed to the ability being banned.

how does banning Grace=trying to remove all luck? Grace forces luck since your now looking at some moves making your unable to move more then 50% of the time. I know full well you can't remove luck from this game, but you can try to limit it from having a large impact. Counting just the move the crit rate goes up to 12.5%, that is still really rare. To get it higher you need an ability and/or item. Even then you are only looking a 33.3% shot, and while this is a bit higher it still isn't good. With Grace though moves that flinch 30% of the time go up to 60%. Now half of the time you just won't move and that doesn't create for good game play imo.

 

Yes, I know banning Grace doesn't work, and part of the reason I started talking about this is because how much I hate Skymin, but to much flinching is bad for the game since it makes it so your opponent can't play the game. But not counting Skymin it really is something you can handle on most teams since the pokemon needs high SPE and ATK stat to do a fair amount of damage to a team. That or your pokemon that can take the main flinch moves (Air Slash/Iron Head) are dead. But that same thing goes for something like Bullet Punch.

 

In terms of Impulse, think of the abilitypool of Pokemon that get Impulse. From what I can tell, these Pokemon are normally very shitty (ie, Bibarel). Unless something like Metagross gets Impulse, there is no reason to worry. Bibarel getting Impulse just moves it from NU to OU, something you are not used to and by extension somewhat opposed to. That doesn't mean the ability itself is broken if shitty Pokemon get it.

 

Abilities should not be banned just as a singular move (outside of OHKO moves) cannot be banned. Smogon never thought to ban Spore because of its restricted movepool, and never thought to ban Dragon Dance because it wasn't a detriment to strategy. The same goes for Impulse and Serene Grace, respectively.

The fact that Impulse took something as bad as Bibarel and made it able to kill whole teams shows how bad it can. And since you brought up luck that is one of the key problems with Impulse. Evasion moves are banned for a reason and this can give your +2 evasion just by switching in. From that point you can stall until you get the right increases and then sweep. And yes I know this isn't perfect but making a meta where randomly brokeness is a large part of it doesn't seem like a meta I'd want to play.

[burnpsy]

A solution has apparently been decided on for Impulse/Inconsistent. All we can do now is wait for them to actually say what it is.

[Flame Dragon]

Where did you hear that?

 

Also, since we've kind of talked about luck, lets talk about bad luck.

 

I just had Hydro Pump miss 4 times in one match. Worse was that those were all in a row. I like damn, facedesk, wth, WTF. I've also lost a recent match because Rock Slide got a lucky flinch right before I could get my kill.

[burnpsy]

Where did you hear that?

 

The Smogon user in charge of running the gen 5 transitional stuff said so on the suspect testing thread that opened in their "Uncharted Territory" section.

 

As for luck, I get a lot of it in both directions. I just take it as it comes and don't whine about. Running accurate moves when possible helps.

[Dark]

Stone Edge is the worst move in the ga- *shot*

 

I wasn't really sure about the effect of Impulse, but as burnspy probably mentioned earlier, they didn't ban Accupressure, and that can raise evasion. It would be stupid to ban a move just because it raises stats, and even more stupid if there is a chance of raising evasion.

[Astro Dude]

All right. Beat Ash in my HG version of Pokemon.

 

I started off with Nidoking Level 72. Took out his Pikachu with Earth Power. Snorlax bit the dust thanks to my Heracross, who also (by luck) took out Blastoise and I think Lapras, Lugia doused Charizard, and finally my level 68 Typhlosion took out his Venusaur.

 

Praise me please.

[Dark]

I beat Red with a team of high level-50s (I think my highest was 63, with the rest of my team around 59), and I didn't use a single legend.

 

You are not worthy of praise.

[Tentacruel]

I beat Red with a team of high level-50s (I think my highest was 63, with the rest of my team around 59), and I didn't use a single legend.

Nice! That's actually quite a feat! Were they EV trained?

[Dark]

In the loosest sense you can think of. They were all in-game Pokemon, so they weren't hardcore EV trained, nor did I go out of my way to EV train them, but if I knew a few upcoming Trainers would have Pokemon with a ton of Defense EVs, I'd send one of my physical walls out to take those Trainers.

[Tentacruel]

Technically, it would be possible to beat Red with a team of level 1's. Just get six Endeavor/Quick Attack/Sash pokes and hope he uses attacking moves.

[burnpsy]

Technically, it would be possible to beat Red with a team of level 1's. Just get six Endeavor/Quick Attack/Sash pokes and hope he uses attacking moves.

 

The hail says no.

[Flame Dragon]

Stone Edge is the worst move in the ga- *shot*

 

I wasn't really sure about the effect of Impulse, but as burnspy probably mentioned earlier, they didn't ban Accupressure, and that can raise evasion. It would be stupid to ban a move just because it raises stats, and even more stupid if there is a chance of raising evasion.

Yea, hate Stone Edge SOOOO much. We need a good Rock move. Or at least a reliable and strong one.

 

Accupressure takes a turn. What makes Impulse so good is you get the boost no matter what you do.This opens to door to stalling to get decent boosts till your pokemon just can't be killed.

[Tentacruel]

There's hail? :o

[Astro Dude]

There's hail? :o

Yes there's hail. It was introduced in Generation 3. An Ice-type version of Sandstorm.

 

And Me beating Blastoise with Heracross was pure luck. I used Megahorn on Blastoise and it's HP went all the way down to zero. It was a critical hit. Talk about lucky.

[Grunt Issun]

Why does everybody (that I've talked to about it) consider healing wave a bad move? http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Healing_Wave_(move)

 

I mean, I guess it only works in double or triple battles, but its a great move there.

[Dark]

Yes, Hail is falling during Red's battle. He's a moron because the only Pokemon that can benefit from that are those that use Blizzard, and Lapras.

 

Why don't you give us the effect of Healing Wave instead of giving us a broken link?

[JimmyK123]

umm arnt they remaking pokemon black/white? well im not sure XP

[Legokun]

Wait, what? Your logic confuses me. :/

[Dark]

Let them release Black and White in the US before you start thinking of remakes. :/

[Twig]

Too much sandstorm teams in 5th gen. >.<