Ritual Monsters in the Extra Deck

[Demise2900]

Before anyone blames me: I know there was already a thread about this, created by Leturn Master. I'm creating a new one because the that thread is almost one month old.

 

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I've been claiming for years that Ritual mechanic was wrong. It was a game design error.

 

When Ritual Monsters are used in the original Yu-Gi-Oh! anime/cartoon, the Ritual Monster card is not in the player's hand or deck. It is obvious that the Ritual Monster cards come from a separated pile of cards, just like Fusion Monster cards. (Evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bub6Jl3n...=related.) Moreover, the Ritual Summon can only be performed tributing monsters on the field, not monsters in the hand.

 

For that reason, I've been thinking that, from the beggining, the Ritual mechanic should have been something like this:

 

1 - Ritual Monsters would not be included in the deck, but rather in the Ritual Deck, just like Fusion Monsters are in the Fusion Deck, OR in the "Extra Deck" (containing Fusion Monsters and Ritual Monsters).

2 - A Ritual Monster is Summoned by Ritual Summon, using a proper Ritual Spell card. Ritual Spell cards require that you tribute one or more monsters on the field, which must fulfill a given criteria (for example: total levels equal to the level of the Ritual Monster).

3 - Sonic Bird, Manju of Thousand Hands and Senju of Ten Thousand Hands wouldn't be created. Advanced Ritual Art would have never been made.

 

With this mechanic, Ritual Monsters wouldn't be broken. They would be playable, possibly competitive, but not broken. Synchro Monsters are cheaper and easier to summon than this would be.

 

Obviously, some cards would be adapted. For example, Relinquished would be too easy to summon, but that could be easly solved changing Dark Illusions Ritual's effect: requiring exact level, i.e., 1 level 1 monster as tribute; requiring DARK spellcasters; etc.

 

Today we can play synchros with no need to play a dedicated deck, it is as easy as including 1 or more Tuner Monsters in the deck. With the said mechanic, we could play Ritual monsters without any need to play a dedicated deck, it would be as easy as including a Ritual Spell card in the deck. Theme-specific Ritual Monsters would also be possible.

 

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About the hypothesis of Konami changing the Ritual mechanic, I think that will never happed. Is it possible? Yes, it is possible. It would require some radical changes: some Ritual suport cards would be illegal to play (Sonic Bird, Manju of Thousand Hands, Senju of Ten Thousand Hands, Advanced Ritual Art, the Djinns of Rituals...); some Ritual Monsters, Ritual Spell cards and Ritual suport cards would be given an Errata in order to adapt to the new mechanic and/or to prevent brokeness (Black Illusions Ritual, Preparation for the Ritual,...). These changes are feasible, but I don't think Konami will do that. I still want to hope something like that, though.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Like I said in the other thread, all Ritual monsters need is more support. The Ritual Fiends do quite nicely, as Releaser is quite possibly one of the best pieces of support any archetype could hope to receive.

[Demise2900]

Like I said in the other thread' date=' all Ritual monsters need is more support. The Ritual Fiends do quite nicely, as Releaser is quite possibly one of the best pieces of support any archetype could hope to receive.

[/quote']

 

I agree that the recent suport is nice. And thats the reality we have to accept as the future of Ritual Monsters in the real TCG.

 

But that will not change the fact that you need a dedicated deck to play Ritual Monsters. I don't think that is the original idea, and, in my opinion, that makes Rituals boring.

 

Compare to Synchro Monsters: you don't need a dedicated deck to play them consistently.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Like I said in the other thread' date=' all Ritual monsters need is more support. The Ritual Fiends do quite nicely, as Releaser is quite possibly one of the best pieces of support any archetype could hope to receive.

[/quote']

 

I agree that the recent suport is nice. And thats the reality we have to accept as the future of Ritual Monsters in the real TCG.

 

But that will not change the fact that you need a dedicated deck to play Ritual Monsters. I don't think that is the original idea, and, in my opinion, that makes Rituals boring.

 

Compare to Synchro Monsters: you don't need a dedicated deck to play them consistently.

 

Who are you to assume what the original idea was? As far as I can tell, Rituals have never been splashed into decks, and instead have always had dedicated decks.

 

And Synchro Monsters were built from the ground up to be easier to play than both Fusions and Rituals combined. So that isn't a fair comparison.

[Guest PikaPerson01]

The biggest problem is that only a few ritual monsters are actually playable

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

The biggest problem is that only a few ritual monsters are actually playable

[Great Unclean One: VK]

Ritual mechanics should stay where they are. Tributing monsters in the hand and field makes it quicker. Now, if it was a mixture of the old and new.....they'll be the fastest monsters in the game. The only weakness to the ritual mechanic is needing both the ritual and ritual monster. If they was to make ritual monsters into a seperate deck, keep the you can tribute in the hand and field thing, Rituals will recieve the rep they ought to have. But then they'd be broken. I say keep it like how it is. Not to mention, the anime is different from the actual game.

[Dark_Armed_Zombie]

Not to mention' date=' the anime is different from the actual game.

[/quote']

[Toffee.]

The biggest problem is that only a few ritual monsters are actually playable

 

Its because "LOL I NUKE TEH FEELD!111" is the current fad, and its hard to compete with that :/

[Demise2900]

Who are you to assume what the original idea was? As far as I can tell' date=' Rituals have never been splashed into decks, and instead have always had dedicated decks.[/quote']

I was not explicit, but I when I said "original idea" I was meaning that the original idea of this game came from the anime. I'm not trying to assume anything about the idea in the mind of the people who designed the real life card game mechanics. That kind of assumption would be obviously stupid :)

 

In the anime, the Rituals were actually splashed into decks. But, yeah, the game in the anime is different from real life game, but the base was the anime, so at the beggining of the real card game things could have been different.

And Synchro Monsters were built from the ground up to be easier to play than both Fusions and Rituals combined. So that isn't a fair comparison.

Now you are the one making assumptions ;) We don't know for sure that the synchro mechanic was created with that prupose.

 

Also' date=' your logic that Synchro mechanic was built up to be easier to play than Ritual is based on the fact that Rituals are hard to play. But what if Rituals weren't hard to play to begin with? That's what I'm trying to tell. Note that the idea I exposed comes from much before Synchro mechanic apearence. The compatison with Synchros is just to show how Rituals would have been much more interesting if they were conceived the way I presented, because its splashability would have been similar to what came to be the Synchro mechanic.

 

The way the Synchro mechanic was built, it is suposed to be easier to play than Rituals and Fusions. Ritual mechanic, in oposition to Synchro mechanic, was created to in a way that is difficult to play, and that's where lies the what in my opinion was a bad game design.

 

The biggest problem is that only a few ritual monsters are actually playable

If the game mechanic was different that wouldn't be truth.

Ritual mechanics should stay where they are.

Of course they should. It makes no sense to make radical changes now. I think Konami would never do that. It is possible' date=' but not everything that is possible is a good idea.

Tributing monsters in the hand and field makes it quicker.

It makes sense that it is possible to tribute from the hand, because it would be much harder otherwise. But if the Ritual monsters where in the Extra Deck, it would be much different, and tributing from the hand would be too quick.

Now' date=' if it was a mixture of the old and new.....they'll be the fastest monsters in the game.[/quote']

"mixture of the old and new"? What do tou mean?

The only weakness to the ritual mechanic is needing both the ritual and ritual monster.

So true. The whole and only problem is that. If Ritual Monsters could be summoned from the hand or deck' date=' it would be slightly better, but Ritual monsters being in the Extra deck would have been the best way.

If they was to make ritual monsters into a seperate deck, keep the you can tribute in the hand and field thing, Rituals will recieve the rep they ought to have. But then they'd be broken.

No, I think that would have been to much. Remember that I'm talking about it being like that from the beggining of this card game.

I say keep it like how it is.

Even if you said the opposite' date=' it will allways be like it is. I don't believe it will change. If it was to be different, it was at the beggining of the game that it would have been different, no now.

Not to mention, the anime is different from the actual game.

Now, it is meaningless to refer to the anime card game, but at the beggining of the conception of the real card game, the anime gameplay was a meaningfull influence.

[Coffee Black]

i think that if you sacrificed from the field, rituals spells could still be in a dead draw, so you would still need somewhat of a dedicated deck to it. your idea would make it easier to play rituals, but i don't think they would rival synchros

[Great Unclean One: VK]

You do need a dedicated deck. I know, I had one.

[Sleepy]

At the beggining, Rituals were made as Special monsters. Stronger in general than Normal or Effect Monsters, but with their Special Cost (the Ritual Spell). At least, I think that's how the anime and manga meant to do it. Since its their own type of card, my guess is yes, all types of cards should be splashable into Decks. Its an error in mechaninc.

You never see someone saying "I don't run Traps because you need a dedicated Deck to use them" or Spells or Effect monsters... It would make the game more fun to have more variety in every Deck..

 

Now, your theory turns Ritual Monsters into Synchros that don't need exact Levels or specific kinds of monsters (Tuners) but need a Spell Card instead. Since its kinda the same..

 

What about... being only from the hand instead of the field? you would need to play concervative to use them and would be the opposite of Synchros in some way xD

 

For my final statement, I would enjoy chaning everything (not just Rituals but also Normals, Fusions and Tokens xD ) to become more splashable into more Decks, but it would heavily mess up the game... too bad u_u

[Great Unclean One: VK]

At the beggining' date=' Rituals were made as Special monsters. Stronger in general than Normal or Effect Monsters, but with their Special Cost (the Ritual Spell). At least, I think that's how the anime and manga meant to do it. Since its their own type of card, my guess is yes, all types of cards should be splashable into Decks. Its an error in mechaninc.

You never see someone saying "I don't run Traps because you need a dedicated Deck to use them" or Spells or Effect monsters... It would make the game more fun to have more variety in every Deck..

 

Now, your theory turns Ritual Monsters into Synchros that don't need exact Levels or specific kinds of monsters (Tuners) but need a Spell Card instead. Since its kinda the same..

 

What about... being only from the hand instead of the field? you would need to play concervative to use them and would be the opposite of Synchros in some way xD

 

For my final statement, I would enjoy chaning everything (not just Rituals but also Normals, Fusions and Tokens xD ) to become more splashable into more Decks, but it would heavily mess up the game... too bad u_u

[/quote']

 

 

*falls in luv*

[Guest PikaPerson01]

The biggest problem is that only a few ritual monsters are actually playable

 

If the game mechanic was different that wouldn't be truth.

 

The way you propose to change the game mechanic (IE, Rituals from extra deck, only SS-able with cards on the field, only SS-able by their proper Ritual Spell) would still have Synchros as vastly prefered over Ritual Monsters, namely because Ritual Summoning would cost 3 cards (two monsters on the field and the Ritual Spell) to produce a high level beatstick, as oppose to 2 cards (two monsters on the field).

 

Not to mention that having a tuner and non tuner on the field is much more versatile. Say your opponent has Stardust on the field, and you have a level 4 Tuner and level 4 non tuner on the field. You draw into End of the World. Your best bet is to Synchro into something that can beatstick over Stardust then going for Demise or Ruin.

 

Furthermore, drawing into certain Tuners would be much more beneficial then drawing into the Ritual Spell. Krebons negates attacks. Gale halves attack. Black Luster Ritual... doesn't do anything when you're in top decking mode.

 

The only proposed changes I could think to your changes would be to make any Ritual Spell capable to summon any Ritual Monster (with due restraint on certain cards of course, just to put them on par with Synchros), and possibly to make them able to use monsters from the hand too (Though that would probably make a few rituals TOO broken.)

[Wizarus]

Rituals were suppose to be the most powerful monsters in the game, but I guess the creators forgot about that. At any case, they need to start making Ritual monsters with 3500+ ATK or with an extremely powerful effect to match their cost. Otherwise, all the support in the world isn't going to help them get off the ground.

[DroutTrigger]

Rituals were suppose to be the most powerful monsters in the game' date=' but I guess the creators forgot about that.[b'] At any case, they need to start making Ritual monsters with 3500+ ATK or with an extremely powerful effect to match their cost. Otherwise, all the support in the world isn't going to help them get off the ground.[/b]

 

even if they do that they are still slow as heck, your better off doing a fusion summon since they have better support than the Ritual monsters.

[CrabHelmet]

Pika, why is everything you say so true?

 

At the beggining' date=' Rituals were made as Special monsters. Stronger in general than Normal or Effect Monsters, but with their Special Cost (the Ritual Spell). At least, I think that's how the anime and manga meant to do it. Since its their own type of card, my guess is yes, all types of cards should be splashable into Decks. Its an error in mechaninc.

You never see someone saying "I don't run Traps because you need a dedicated Deck to use them" or Spells or Effect monsters... It would make the game more fun to have more variety in every Deck..

[/quote']

 

You do, however, see people saying that about Normal Monsters and Fusion Monsters.

 

For my final statement' date=' I would enjoy chaning everything (not just Rituals but also Normals, Fusions and Tokens xD ) to become more splashable into more Decks, but it would heavily mess up the game... too bad u_u

[/quote']

 

That doesn't even begin to make sense. All you're advocating is that everyone should run holypileofrandom.dek, for no other reason than that you like the flavour of seeing lots of different pretty card colours.

 

Rituals were suppose to be the most powerful monsters in the game' date=' but I guess the creators forgot about that.

[/quote']

 

That's pretty much unambiguously false; Fusions were supposed to be the most powerful. Remember that Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon, which is stronger than any Ritual Monster in existence, was introduced before Ritual Monsters were even mentioned, and that the two highest ATK monsters in the game are both Fusion Monsters. Oh, and in the series the strongest monster in existence is a Fusion Monster whose Fusion Material Monsters are the three God Cards.

 

Rituals were originally just introduced as a clumsy way of making monsters require Tributes because Tribute Summoning hadn't been thought of at that point.

[Sleepy]

Pika' date=' why is everything you say so true?

[b']yeah, Synchros would still be used before Rituals, most Rituals don't have effects, most Synchros have decent effects. The ATK range is not that different....[/b]

 

At the beggining' date=' Rituals were made as Special monsters. Stronger in general than Normal or Effect Monsters, but with their Special Cost (the Ritual Spell). At least, I think that's how the anime and manga meant to do it. Since its their own type of card, my guess is yes, all types of cards should be splashable into Decks. Its an error in mechaninc.

You never see someone saying "I don't run Traps because you need a dedicated Deck to use them" or Spells or Effect monsters... It would make the game more fun to have more variety in every Deck..

[/quote']

 

You do, however, see people saying that about Normal Monsters and Fusion Monsters.

Yeah, maybe I went too far when I said Normals. Those are like that for being the roots of the game, the elders, but Fusions would be fun to have as something more splashable. The concept of combining strength to make them stronger sounds basic and could become more used with some minor changes actually. Even though its not as easy as in the manga where you just randomly used Duelist Kingdom rulings to combine random compatible monsters and made a Fusion that wasn't as easy to kill as just any single monster.

 

For my final statement' date=' I would enjoy chaning everything (not just Rituals but also Normals, Fusions and Tokens xD ) to become more splashable into more Decks, but it would heavily mess up the game... too bad u_u

[/quote']

 

That doesn't even begin to make sense. All you're advocating is that everyone should run holypileofrandom.dek, for no other reason than that you like the flavour of seeing lots of different pretty card colours.

The last sentence I wrote there was meant to give the message that I was giving a step back. It would be pretty messy and I'm used to how Rituals are now, still give suggestions on the thread though...

Don't forget that more than the colors, all those types of cards have different rules and mechanics to make them fun to work with Colors are fun =D

[Demise2900]

i think that if you sacrificed from the field' date=' rituals spells could still be in a dead draw, so you would still need somewhat of a dedicated deck to it. your idea would make it easier to play rituals, but i don't think they would rival synchros

[/quote']

Correct. But it wasn't suposed to rival Synchros. Remember that Rituals were introduced near the beggining of the game. When Synchros were introduced, the game was already "prepared" for their speed. But at the beggining, the game was much slower, so it would have been a bad idea making Rituals as fast as the Synchros are.

 

The big problem is that Rituals have never been a good mechanic: when Rituals were introduced, the game was much slower and had few Special summons, but even so they didn't succeed. They were too slow, too dificult and too expensive to summon, even for that early times. No wonder they became worse with the time.

 

At the beggining' date=' Rituals were made as Special monsters. Stronger in general than Normal or Effect Monsters, but with their Special Cost (the Ritual Spell). At least, I think that's how the anime and manga meant to do it. Since its their own type of card, my guess is yes, all types of cards should be splashable into Decks. Its an error in mechaninc.

You never see someone saying "I don't run Traps because you need a dedicated Deck to use them" or Spells or Effect monsters... It would make the game more fun to have more variety in every Deck..

[/quote']

Well, comparing with Traps is not fair, but I think I understand what you wanted to mean and I agree.

Rituals are only seen in Ritual-dedicated decks; those decks can play the rituals but can do nothing else. I think that it would have been much more interesting if Rituals were playable in decks that could win even without them. For example, you can play Synchros in Lightsworn, but you can win without them.

 

Now' date=' your theory turns Ritual Monsters into Synchros that don't need exact Levels or specific kinds of monsters (Tuners) but need a Spell Card instead. Since its kinda the same.. [/quote']

I made this theory much before Synchros apeared :) I was not trying to make Rituals look similar to Synchros, Synchros didn't exist. But it is much different: in general, each Ritual monster has 1 specific Ritual spell card and each Ritual Spell card is specific to one Ritual Monster, but most synchros have no specific tuner and most tuners are not specific to any synchro. That makes a major difference between Synchros and the Rituals from my theory.

What about... being only from the hand instead of the field? you would need to play concervative to use them and would be the opposite of Synchros in some way xD

Nope' date=' that would have been too fast for the time they were created, and Rituals would become abusable/broken with ease.

For my final statement, I would enjoy chaning everything (not just Rituals but also Normals, Fusions and Tokens xD ) to become more splashable into more Decks, but it would heavily mess up the game... too bad u_u

Well, we can create cards with YCM, and we can play with them between friends for fun. So we can also change the Ritual mechanic rules for fun.

But changing OCG/TCG... that will never happen, in my opinion.

---

The way you propose to change the game mechanic (IE' date=' Rituals from extra deck, only SS-able with cards on the field, only SS-able by their proper Ritual Spell) would still have Synchros as vastly prefered over Ritual Monsters, namely because Ritual Summoning would cost 3 cards (two monsters on the field and the Ritual Spell) to produce a high level beatstick, as oppose to 2 cards (two monsters on the field).

 

Not to mention that having a tuner and non tuner on the field is much more versatile. Say your opponent has Stardust on the field, and you have a level 4 Tuner and level 4 non tuner on the field. You draw into End of the World. Your best bet is to Synchro into something that can beatstick over Stardust then going for Demise or Ruin.

 

Furthermore, drawing into certain Tuners would be much more beneficial then drawing into the Ritual Spell. Krebons negates attacks. Gale halves attack. Black Luster Ritual... doesn't do anything when you're in top decking mode.[/quote']

I agree with everyting you say. My theory is about Rituals being like that from the beggining, many years before Synchros were created. Rituals are not suposed to rival Synchros, even in my theory. If Rituals were rivals to synchros, then Rituals would have been too powerful when introduced years ago. But, even if not rivals to Synchros, they would have been much more playable and much more interesting and funny to play.

The only proposed changes I could think to your changes would be to make any Ritual Spell capable to summon any Ritual Monster (with due restraint on certain cards of course' date=' just to put them on par with Synchros), and possibly to make them able to use monsters from the hand too (Though that would probably make a few rituals TOO broken.)[/quote']

Any Ritual Spell capable to summon any Ritual Monster? Not a bad idea, but it would make Rituals similar to fusions (polymerization is capable to summon any fusion monster, unless the monster says the oposite) and Synchros (because most tuners can summon any synchro). I think that would remove the point of the Ritual monsters, that is each one having a specific ritual. The interest of Rituals is having an unic mechanic, it is not just having a different card color :)

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

I will say, however, that the recent batch of Ritual Spells, with effects that activate if you remove the Ritual Spell from your Graveyard, are a welcome addition. Too long have Ritual Spells served 1 purpose and 1 purpose only. With this multi-utility, it could greatly help the playability of Rituals in general.

[Great Unclean One: VK]

I will say' date=' however, that the recent batch of Ritual Spells, with effects that activate if you remove the Ritual Spell from your Graveyard, are a welcome addition. Too long have Ritual Spells served 1 purpose and 1 purpose only. With this multi-utility, it could greatly help the playability of Rituals in general.

[/quote']

 

Agreed.

 

*hugz Chaos*

[Lonk]

I think they should still remain in the deck, but when you activate the ritual spell, it ritual summons the monster from your hand or deck.

[Demise2900]

I think they should still remain in the deck' date=' but when you activate the ritual spell, it ritual summons the monster from your hand or deck.

[/quote']

That would have been a better mechanic, indeed. Not so good as Rituals in the Extra Deck, but Rituals would have been more playable than they were.

 

Well, thanks for the comments, everyone! It was a pleasure to share my abstract thoughs with you xD

[The Dark One]

THe biggest flaw with Rituals was that the huge investment they require means that any effect they can give you pretty much has to win you the game.

 

This is, of course, being largely remedied by the ritual devils. While I doubt it, it would be pretty neat to see a few ritual decks make their way into the meta at some point. In particular, I'm fond of Northwemko. ( I think her effect could make for some interesting game situations, and she does, of course, have VERY pretty art.)