Mass Driver

[DARKPLANT RISING]

 

Discuss on what place this deserves in the ban list. Limited? Semi'ed? Or stay at 3?

[BulletMan]

It only helps with OTKs and FTKs....

 

It could be banned for all I care. Sure, if it were, people might do Cannon Soldier, but he's slower.

[Great Unclean One: VK]

Ban or limit Ronintoad.

 

Then Frogs will start to slip.

[burnpsy]

It deserves to be at 0.

 

Oddly enough, Konami always puts everything EXCEPT for Mass Driver on the list. But what do you expect, they're Konami.

[BulletMan]

Ban or limit Ronintoad.

 

Then Frogs will start to slip.

 

Substitoad, Ronin, or Mass Driver.

 

ban either, I don't think they're quite so good any more...

[Wizarus]

Should have been banished to the list years ago. I don't know why Konami hasn't done this already, knowing that it's only used as an FTK/OTK machine.

[BulletMan]

Infact...

 

How much does it even cost to get one? Especially since it's a common.

 

If it really doesn't provide any money for konami and is bad for the game, I wonder, why is it still here?

[TheTurtleOnceCalledGod]

Should be banned, makes so many combos broken. Konami has it out for cheap meta decks, so they will probably hit this or the frogs instead of the real problems like infernities (which already were killed by good siding/maining) and x-sabers (their meal ticket that they tried too hard to make it meta and it worked).

[CrabHelmet]

The question of such cards as Mass Driver and Toon Cannon Soldier is an interesting one. Historically, they have been used exclusively in OTK/FTK loops to deal infinite damage - and, indeed, their obvious inferiority to generic burn cards like Ookazi in terms of card advantage makes it difficult to conceive of acceptable uses for them. However, what must be stressed is that the OTK/FTK loops that these cards facilitate rely on infinite advantage engines like the Substitoad/Ronintoadin combo, and these infinite advantage engines are unacceptable even without the Mass Driver family; they themselves contain banworthy elements even before Mass Driver enters the picture.

 

The result is that the Mass Driver family exists in a sort of limbo: they can't be used outside of OTK/FTK loops because they suck otherwise, but the OTK/FTK loops are banworthy even without considering them, making banning them unnecessary.

 

To me, the conclusion seems straightforward: the OTK/FTK loops need not even be considered since they contain banworthy elements, so using them to argue against the legality of the Mass Driver family makes no more sense than using Dark Armed Dragon to argue against the legality of Eradicator Epidemic Virus. This renders them sucky cards, but not cards that damage the game - and they do at least have some theoretical use in a "token burn" build based on using Mass Driver or something similar to turn cards like Scapegoat into massive burns.

 

In short: they don't really help the game, but they don't hurt it either, so banning them is not needed.

[Toffee.]

It deserves to be at 0.

 

Oddly enough, Konami always puts everything EXCEPT for Mass Driver on the list. But what do you expect, they're Konami.

And then the very next day Konami releases this:

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

Ban or limit Ronintoad.

 

Then Frogs will start to slip.

 

Limiting Ronintoadin won't do a thing.

 

Ban Substitoad. Ronintoadin itself is rather balanced. Substitoad makes it broken and it doesn't seem to serve a purpose other than allowing balanced cards to become broken. Banning that seems like the better course of action to take. Mass Driver itself is trash. Anything that can make trash like Mass Driver broken should not be allowed to exist.

[Flame Dragon]

As Crab said, the problem with this card comes from loops that set up for that OTK. Since those loops have broken parts and banning them stops the loops this doesn't need to be to moved.

[ihop]

Ban Substitoad.

It's the source of all this.

[byak]

Substitoads gotta go.

[burnpsy]

What should happen to Frog FTK: Mass Driver, Ronintoadin or Substitoad gets Banned. Preferrably Substitoad or Mass Driver - both of them are repeat offenders.

 

What most likely will happen to Frog FTK: Swap Frog, Substitoad and Ronintoadin get Limited, One for One gets banned.

[-Griffin]

While I'd agree with Crab in a perfect world where lists are quickly updated, they aren't. If a loop might hurt the meta game for a whole 6 months because of Mass Driver - entirely possible - and be much less effective without it, then I'd rather have had Mass Driver banned since the start of the format. As long as we wait 6 months for a list, leaving Mass Driver to make these OTKs/FTKs possible, even if it isn't the most banworthy part of the combo, seems foolish, so I'd have it banned under the current system.

[byak]

ITT: We can't use Cannon Soldier.

[burnpsy]

ITT: We can't use Cannon Soldier.

 

Consistency drops like a rock in these sorts of things with Cannon Soldier (well, only if you care about getting it up in one turn, but it IS called Frog FTK). Just because the effect is the same doesn't mean that it would work out the same for the decks involved.

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

ITT: We can't use Cannon Soldier.

 

Cannon Soldier is slower yet is still the same deal as Mass Driver. It is trash and anything that can make trash like Cannon Soldier broken should not be allowed to exist.

[ihop]

Driver isn't the problem.

Substitoad is the one that sets up the FTK.

[Manjoume Thunder]

How do you summon Substitoad when your normal summon is reserved for Cannon Soldier?

 

Anyway, banining Mass Driver or Ronin stops the FTK ....

but what about the synchro spam OTK? It is almost as deadly and probably even more consistent.

 

Ban the Toad.

[ihop]

Not to mention the infinite advantage with Frognarchs.

[BulletMan]

This is what I have come down to. Ban Driver, and the LOL loop (Substi or Ronin).

[byak]

Consistency drops like a rock in these sorts of things with Cannon Soldier (well, only if you care about getting it up in one turn, but it IS called Frog FTK). Just because the effect is the same doesn't mean that it would work out the same for the decks involved.

 

Toon Cannon Soldier and table of contents.

tbh your opponent can't do that much in one turn to completely wreck your OTK.

The things your opponent would play against the FTK (Hanewata/Crow) seem much more effective.

[Mr. Judgment Dragon]

How do you summon Substitoad when your normal summon is reserved for Cannon Soldier?

 

Double Summon?