Expelsword Posted December 22, 2010 Report Share Posted December 22, 2010 [quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1293058092' post='4874721'] You -1 yourself to flip the Opponent's Tuner facedown to prevent them from -1ing for a Synchro. Hilarious, I know. I don't really consider this card a -1, because in most cases it either prevents something from happening, or saves one of your own monsters from something else. [/quote] Synchros are only -1 in terms of PURE Card Advantage. Nearly 100% of the time, the monster you get is worth the two you gave up (particularly if you used Tuningware and Change Synchron ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaouJudai Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 a synchro in the hand is worth 2 in the bush Book of moon may not be banworthy - but it's one of the most versatile cards in the game today - people don't run it at 3 because it's fashionable. It will get hit again. Probably sooner than later if it's abused at high visibility events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted December 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293106907' post='4876263'] people don't run it at 3 because it's fashionable. It will get hit again.[/quote] Great logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebihp2007 Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 Let's just wait until they are released, shall we? Seriously, there are going to be like ... 100 new rulings once they are; we don't even have solid information on how they work and we start to think about how to defeat them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuh Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 [quote name='Ser Warjacksworth' timestamp='1293027361' post='4873492'] should be @0 [/quote] oh boy, u jelly Book of Moon should be used in all decks because it is the slut of yugiohs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaouJudai Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 [quote name='=Evangelion=' timestamp='1293107027' post='4876270'] Great logic. [/quote] Even better troll! I agree about excess monsters. We will just have to wait and see. I disagree on book of moon. It's too powerful in the current game state and requires adjustment to 2 or lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293115597' post='4876544'] Even better troll! I agree about excess monsters. We will just have to wait and see. I disagree on book of moon. It's too powerful in the current game state and requires adjustment to 2 or lower. [/quote] What is your locals like? What kind of deck(s) do you run? Maybe that might help explain something. See if those people who run Shura and Flamvell Dog will help you with an experiment: if they run 3 Book of Moon and no Enemy Controller, ask them to instead try out their deck against you with 3 Enemy Controller instead of 3 Book of Moon. If you still feel the combo is unfair, then the problem you have is with the +1 CA swarm Shura and Dog ability, not with the -1 CA Book of Moon. Book of Moon comboing with Shura and Dog isn't even that great of a combo and certainly wouldn't be what breaks Book of Moon if Book of Moon is broken. I would gladly help you if you'd explain more examples and more relevant examples of how Book of Moon is broken. If Excess Monsters turn out to be amazing (unlikely) and Book of Moon stops them like I think they do, then maybe Book of Moon would be banworthy. However, since Excess monsters have rather tough restrictions and must be drawn (making them dead draws), they won't become used much unless they are ridiculously powerful. Anyway, I suppose I should introduce you to 3/0 logic: most cards is either good for the game (should be at 3), bad for the game (should be at 0), or good for the game only in a certain number (because having more would make a gamebreaking combo). Having a card at any other number at any other reason makes the game more luck-based, which is bad for the game. I mentioned cards could be at 1 or 2; here's when: • If a card isn't banworthy at 1 but 2 forms a broken combo, the card goes to 1 (Example: Night Assailant. Whether Destiny Hero - Malicious should be at 1 or 3 might still be up to debate, but I think it was decided to be at 1. Correct me if I'm wrong). • If a card requires all 3 of it for a broken combo, the card can go to 2 (Example: none so far. If Infernity Beetle's ability to swarm were consider bad for the game, Infernity Beetle would be Semi-Limited. If Thunder Dragon's card advantage-producing ability were bad for the game, Thunder Dragon would go to 2. Unfornately, Thunder Dragon is crap other than that ability, so its Semi-limit is not necessary.) There are exceptions to 3/0 logic and there are many more rules, but these are the general rules. Since Book of Moon doesn't combo with itself, does not do something that punishes unskillful play (like how Mirror Force punishes overextension), the only values Book of Moon should be at is either 3 or 0. Since Book of Moon overall isn't banworthy, doesn't promote Solitaire playing, isn't exactly great stalling, I can see it being at 3. Personally, I think the game is actually a much more interesting and fun game because of its existence. It creates a lot of viable options in a small amount of text - to me, that's an excellent design. The fact that it's a -1 with a lot of options helps keep it very useful but balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadenxAtemYAOI Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 I love to combine this card with penguin soldier. Flip penguin to send back synchro/fusion to the extra deck. Then activate book of moon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaouJudai Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 Well that's not really it - it's what I'm seeing in the current metagame Just take this one instance from indy last year and some other from hoey as well that popped up in my search engine: [quote]Indy 2010 Hoey drew XX-Saber Darksoul. He spent a moment reading Fossil Dyna’s text, then activated Giant Trunade to clear the Spell and Trap Card Zones. [b]He activated Book of Moon, [/b]turned Fossil Dyna face-down, and attacked it with Darksoul, trying to trigger its effect. When the effect of Fossil Dyna activated (which it did, even though there was nothing it could destroy), Doomcaliber’s effect activated in response. Doomcaliber was Tributed to negate Fossil Dyna’s effect, it negated the effect of Fossil Dyna, and then it destroyed Fossil Dyna. Suddenly both of Meier’s monsters were gone! A brilliant, resourceful play from Hoey. He Set 2 cards to finish his turn. Meier Summoned Thunder King Rai-Oh, attacked, and Hoey turned it face-down with Book of Moon. Cyber Dragon attacked and Fulhelmknight’s effect kept it from being destroyed. Hoey drew another Darksoul, Summoned the other Fulhelmknight, and attacked with the first into Sakuretsu Armor. The second Fulhelmknight attacked, Meier flipped Book of Moon to stop the attack, and Hoey conceded. From 2009 Matt Summoned "Summoner Monk" on his next turn and William turned it face-down with "Book of Moon" before it could use its effect. William drew another Kalut and Summoned it. Matt used "Book of Moon" to prevent the search, William Summoned "Blackwing - Blizzard the Far North" and made "Magical Android" with Blizzard and the revived Kalut before attacking. The attack was blocked by "Book of Moon" and Matt was up[/quote] Here's the spell line up from YCS Atlanta's top GK deck [quote]Spells: 3 Pot of Duality [b]3 Book of Moon[/b] 3 Royal Tribute 2 Necrovalley 2 Gravekeeper’s Stele 1 Dark Hole 1 Allure of Darkness[/quote] hmmm which reminds me.. POD needs a hit too. I know expressing my opinion on this invites controversy but let's keep the discourse going in a productive manner - I really could continue to present my case against book of moon at 3 but I don't see a point in it. It's currently at 3 and I know from experience that there's a good chance it's probably going to get semi'd in march. If it doesn't then we'll continue to see it abused in multiples. konami collects decklists for a reason - they watch which cards are being abused - my example of BDD is just an example of the fact konami hits staple cards used in multiples. except for POD - but that's due to profits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293120842' post='4876782'] Well that's not really it - it's what I'm seeing in the current metagame Just take this one instance from indy last year and some other from hoey as well that popped up in my search engine: [tons of situations where Book of Moon was activated] Here's the spell line up from YCS Atlanta's top GK deck [spells in decklist with 3 Book of Moon, 3 POD, and a bunch of other cool cards] hmmm which reminds me.. POD needs a hit too. I know expressing my opinion on this invites controversy but let's keep the discourse going in a productive manner - I really could continue to present my case against book of moon at 3 but I don't see a point in it. It's currently at 3 and I know from experience that there's a good chance it's probably going to get semi'd in march. If it doesn't then we'll continue to see it abused in multiples. konami collects decklists for a reason - they watch which cards are being abused - my example of BDD is just an example of the fact konami hits staple cards used in multiples. except for POD - but that's due to profits [/quote] You have to remember, Konami goes mostly by the Japanese meta and rarely does anything for the TCG. Unless these events were in Japan, they probably don't pay too much consideration for them. Even so, I'll analyze them. None of the situations were potentially game-breaking. Let's look at them one by one: Indy 2010 • Sure, the first one he pulled off a +1 with Book of Moon, but that's because his opponent was using Doomcrapular Knight. Later, Hoey attacked into a [b]Sakuretsu Armor[/b]. You could tell his opponent was probably pretty bad in the first place and was using rather horrible cards. Bad cards shouldn't be factored into how a good card works unless the bad card is used in tangent with the good card in an effective and rather consistent manner. • Wow, he stopped an attack and stopped Rai-Oh's effect from working (though he didn't use that aspect of it). So do a lot of other cards with better results. • Another blocked attack. Sept 2009 • So he stopped his opponent from 0ing out a Level 4 monster, probably a tuner. Actually a pretty good usage of the card. • Another 0 in CA in the end. Rather resourceful. • Another stopped attack. These uses don't show Book of Moon being abused, only used. The card might do a lot, but it doesn't do any one thing especially well (except reuse flip effects). It's a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Pot of Duality I'm not too sure about either. To me, it's either overpowered or excellently designed. I've never used it myself, so I've never been able to see how powerful it is for my own eyes. From how I've seen it used, it's mained in 3s in any deck that mains Royal Oppression (which, at the Sneak previews and locals I go to, is pretty much every deck). As I mentioned, there is a big difference between Burial and Book. Burial easily creates card advantage when used in tandem with Mezuki, Vayu, and DAD (which are pretty much most of the times it's used). As I mentioned in a previous post, konami does banlists weird: Konami doesn't like to ban cards, but instead likes to limit every card in a combo so that the combo isn't viable unless one of the pieces is really really broken on its own. DAD and Burial, and Burial and Mezuki, are lethal combos, so all 3 are at 1. Book of Moon has no huge combos, nor is it itself a game winner, and it doesn't combo with itself or other cards, so I don't think it will get hit. If Konami does hit it for some strange reason (most likely being anticipating it as Excess hate), it would go to 2. Then again, this is Konami we're talking about; they don't follow any real logic. You may be right in saying it will be hit, but that doesn't mean it will be hit for any right reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaouJudai Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 You know we can definitely agree that konami does not follow real logic. And they do pay far more attention to the OCG than the TCG - the fact the X Sabers were not hit whatsoever (well maybe cat - but cat was hit for OCG abuse) shows that. Hoey used book of moon better than I've ever seen anyone use it and he still lost. So it's definitely not all powerful. The application of it in certain decks however is really 'overused' (I won't say abused) you know great power lies in a card when it begins to be used in multiples - plaguespreader - stratos - legendary six sams before gateway is hit in march - and when cards are used in 3's in the top decks of any major event it catches konami's attention - even in the TCG - I understand OCG > TCG in the biased mind of Konami I am saying that if we continue to see triple book in top decks - that it will be hit in some form - maybe back to 2 - Pot of Duality's day is coming next September when it's released like charge of the light brigade was as a super in a SE. It will go to 1. (note to future self on Sept 1st - necrobump FTW! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~British Soul~ Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293130879' post='4877295'] Pot of Duality's day is coming [b]next September[/b] when it's released like charge of the light brigade was as a super in a SE. It will go to 1. (note to future self on Sept 1st - necrobump FTW! ) [/quote] what? i don't get what you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaouJudai Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 I think pot of duality will follow the same exact path as charge of the light brigade - charge was a high dollar sought after secret - was the same value - then released as a super in a special edition as a super rare - went to 1 immediately on the next list. + - accuracy on order. I am not saying the after market dollar value has anything to do with konami's decision on either card - just that there are many coincidences between the 2 cards in their releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manjoume Thunder Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 broken themed card =/= konami's masterpiece pot would probably stay @3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293130879' post='4877295'] You know we can definitely agree that konami does not follow real logic. And they do pay far more attention to the OCG than the TCG - the fact the X Sabers were not hit whatsoever (well maybe cat - but cat was hit for OCG abuse) shows that. [/quote] The main cause of that I personally believe is TCG-exclusive cards. But yeah, we can agree that Konami needs to get its head more in the TCG and base the banlist at least a little on that, and/or just make a separate banlist for TCG and OCG. Konami also needs to stop upgrading the rarities of cards that do really well, but I doubt that will happen. [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293130879' post='4877295'] Hoey used book of moon better than I've ever seen anyone use it and he still lost. So it's definitely not all powerful. The application of it in certain decks however is really 'overused' (I won't say abused) [/quote] In what competitive decks is Book of Moon overused in? In the examples you showed, the main thing I saw it doing is screwing with the opponent's strategy, not helping your own per se. [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293130879' post='4877295'] you know great power lies in a card when it begins to be used in multiples - plaguespreader - stratos - legendary six sams before gateway is hit in march - [/quote] Okay, Plaguespreader is a good example of what you're talking about, I'll give you that. The other two are not good examples because they get more powerful when used in multiples. Stratos was like a Gadget when it was allowed at 3. Gateway is absolutely insane when 3 are out (as well as the deck gets more consistent with 3) and will only be more insane with Legedary Six Sam. I'm sure it's getting limited. I still think all three are banworthy though. [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293130879' post='4877295'] and when cards are used in 3's in the top decks of any major event it catches konami's attention - even in the TCG - I understand OCG > TCG in the biased mind of Konami [/quote] Konami does the banlist weird, so any real logic doesn't exactly matter. I think that Book does have a considerable possibility of being knocked to 2, but it wouldn't be for the right reason as I stated. Generally being a -1 or 0 in some situations keeps Book of Moon from being broken. [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293130879' post='4877295'] I am saying that if we continue to see triple book in top decks - that it will be hit in some form - maybe back to 2 - Pot of Duality's day is coming next September when it's released like charge of the light brigade was as a super in a SE. It will go to 1. (note to future self on Sept 1st - necrobump FTW! ) [/quote] Pot of Duality might be hit, I just don't know about Pot of Duality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted December 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 [quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293130879' post='4877295'] You know we can definitely agree that konami does not follow real logic. And they do pay far more attention to the OCG than the TCG - the fact the X Sabers were not hit whatsoever (well maybe cat - but cat was hit for OCG abuse) shows that.[/quote] TCG DARKSOUL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaouJudai Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Let's re-visit this shall we? First of all I was right about book of moon being hit. Second I was right about overlays NOT being treated as equip cards. Please excuse the necro bump - but I needed the topic to illustrate that I predicted this correctly. [quote]EXCEED MONSTERS AND EXCEED SUMMONING * Exceed Monsters are coloured black, and reside in the Extra Deck. * Instead of a Level, they have a Rank. This Rank is depicted as a row of stars extending from the left-hand side of the card (opposite to where the Level is normally depicted). * In order to Exceed Summon, you must control two monsters of the same Level. The Rank of the Exceed Monster decides what Level the monsters need to be (Rank 3 Exceed Monsters require two Level 3 monsters). * When a monster is Exceed Summoned, the monsters used as Exceed Material are laid on the Exceed Monster (Overlay Unit). These Overlay Units are used in the effects of the Exceed Monsters.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='HaouJudai' timestamp='1297948969' post='5014172'] Let's re-visit this shall we? First of all I was right about book of moon being hit. Second I was right about overlays NOT being treated as equip cards. Please excuse the necro bump - but I needed the topic to illustrate that I predicted this correctly. [/quote] While the Overlay Units aren't treated as equips, I'm sure they will be removed upon the monster being flipped facedown. Remember, we don't have all the rules for the Excess monsters, so you cannot say the Overlay Units won't be removed. I, however, have solid reasoning that Overlay Units are removed: • Book of Moon was limited again despite many formats of it at 3. • The game doesn't know whether the facedown monster is an Excess monster. Since only Excess monsters can have Overlay Units and the game can't tell if it's an Excess monster, it will remove the Overlay Units. The way other cards in the game work, I would imagine this is how these would work. Even though your predictions are right, you are still wrong in saying that BoM is or should be limited for the reason you stated. As far as I'm concerned, unless flipping a monster facedown doesn't remove Overlay Units, you are still wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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